Dead Baby On Channel 7

[garro]

I have seen a lot of dead bodies on Thai TV over the last five years but I was surprised this morning at a clip of a dead 18 month old on breakfast Television. I saw a lot of dead bodies in my previous profession of a nurse so it doesn't shock me too much but I would imagine that it is stressful for some people. I was just wondering what members of TV thought. Is this a good or bad thing?

I personally think it is a very good thing as it means death isn't hidden away but something in the post for everyone. In the case of the 18 month old baby this morning it emphasised how dangerous it is to leave a child unattended. The baby chocked on a toy. I would imagine that some of you would disagree with me.

[dekka007]

I would imagine that some of you would disagree with me.

I disagree with you.

[jumnien]

At Wat Tham Seau Ajahn Jumnien has a skeleton in a glass case on display to remind us of death. Nothing wrong with an occasional live or dead body on television, just don't watch too much television! A body is just a body.

[November Rain]

I do disagree, but not because it was a baby you saw. One of the things I've never got used to in Thailand is the gory pics of death all over the media (print & tv). I know that in newspapers they now pixellate the blood out, but (assuming the face isn't harmed) you can still see the faces.

My dislike is instinctive, but comes from personal experience also. When my Dad committed suicide, they had the picture & his ID pic (obviously given to them by the police) on the front page of one of the Thai newspapers (along with a totally false story). Another acquaintance of mine was murdered in a Wat very near my house & I saw his picture on a front page, too.

I was also a nurse & work with gruesome injuries (albeit canine) now, so blood & gore doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that every single person the media shows in this way was a relative or friend of someone. Those people are grieving the death of their loved one. I can't imagine seeing their body splashed all over the media for the interest of the goulish makes their grieving process much easier, it didn't with mine.

[garro]

I do disagree, but not because it was a baby you saw. One of the things I've never got used to in Thailand is the gory pics of death all over the media (print & tv). I know that in newspapers they now pixellate the blood out, but (assuming the face isn't harmed) you can still see the faces.

My dislike is instinctive, but comes from personal experience also. When my Dad committed suicide, they had the picture & his ID pic (obviously given to them by the police) on the front page of one of the Thai newspapers (along with a totally false story). Another acquaintance of mine was murdered in a Wat very near my house & I saw his picture on a front page, too.

I was also a nurse & work with gruesome injuries (albeit canine) now, so blood & gore doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that every single person the media shows in this way was a relative or friend of someone. Those people are grieving the death of their loved one. I can't imagine seeing their body splashed all over the media for the interest of the goulish makes their grieving process much easier, it didn't with mine.

Truly sorry to hear about your previous bad experiences with this. It must have been very difficult for you.

[jumnien]

As the buddha said, "Life is short, death is longlasting." When I see a dead soldier or victims of crashes or drownings in the newpaper in the morning, most mornings when I peruse Thai Rath, I think of how quick life passes by and what can I do today to truly live this day fully. It oftens reminds me to call my Mom and tell her I love her. It fosters compassion for strangers as I leave my abode with my agenda. It has prompted me to make provisions for my loved ones upon my own death. Seeing these bodies reminds me to drive my car and fly my plane safely and attentively and not drive the motorbike if I can help it, since my skill level on the bike is rather unskillful as experience has shown.

For me, it's not a question of whether they should or shouldn't print them. They do. It's a question of can I incorporate these images into a brief dharma lesson with a positive impact on my day. That said, I refuse to watch ghost or psycho murder movies, they give me the creeps.

[garro]

As the buddha said, "Life is short, death is longlasting." When I see a dead soldier or victims of crashes or drownings in the newpaper in the morning, most mornings when I peruse Thai Rath, I think of how quick life passes by and what can I do today to truly live this day fully. It oftens reminds me to call my Mom and tell her I love her. It fosters compassion for strangers as I leave my abode with my agenda. It has prompted me to make provisions for my loved ones upon my own death. Seeing these bodies reminds me to drive my car and fly my plane safely and attentively and not drive the motorbike if I can help it, since my skill level on the bike is rather unskillful as experience has shown.

For me, it's not a question of whether they should or shouldn't print them. They do. It's a question of can I incorporate these images into a brief dharma lesson with a positive impact on my day. That said, I refuse to watch ghost or psycho murder movies, they give me the creeps.

I agree with you mdeland but must admit I do like ghost movies. I especally enjoy watchng them with my wife who gets terrified - I must be a bit sadistic.

[dekka007]

Its not a question about "How it makes YOU feel" being unconnected/related viewer. Yes it's a reminder to us all how we need to be more careful about aspects in life. The same result would have been achieved with pictures of the grieving family at the wat or similar without the video/pictures and just the story.

Imagine the horror of having to look at your daughter or son's body during your early grieving process played over and over again on TV.

The psychological effect on top of the shock/death must be extreme and very unhelpful for the post-traumatic stress.

Its just not about how you feel when you view something like this on tv its about how the parents, the relatives, the wifes, the husbands of their loved ones being displayed on TV - It's simply wrong.

[garro]

Its not a question about "How it makes YOU feel" being unconnected/related viewer. Yes it's a reminder to us all how we need to be more careful about aspects in life. The same result would have been achieved with pictures of the grieving family at the wat or similar without the video/pictures and just the story.

Imagine the horror of having to look at your daughter or son's body during your early grieving process played over and over again on TV.

The psychological effect on top of the shock/death must be extreme and very unhelpful for the post-traumatic stress.

Its just not about how you feel when you view something like this on tv its about how the parents, the relatives, the wifes, the husbands of their loved ones being displayed on TV - It's simply wrong.

I'm sorry dekka007 but I think it is a bit simplistic to say that the way different a different culture deals with death is wrong.

I originally come from Ireland where death was a very big part of the culture. Wakes would go on for days with the body on display and complete strangers turning up to stare at the body and get free food and drink. While this may seem a bit distasteful to some it actually helped people cope with death better and make their own more of a reality.This tradition is now almost dead in Ireland and the terminally ill are hidden away and the dead are kept in closed boxes.

I agree that it is hard for the family and care needs to be taken to shield them from the media coverage. This is the same everywhere. I had an uncle who was a bit of a gangster. When he died there was some very hurthful thing written about him in the press. We simply kept my grandmother away from newspapers for a while. It was easier then trying to stop the newspapers from printing it.

If the clip this morning encourages one mother to be more watchful of her child then it will be worth it.

[cdnvic]

I've had this argument with editors before but rarely won. You can write all the catchy slogans you want about drunk driving but they'll never have the impact that a photo of a dead kid and a screaming parent on page one will.

[dekka007]

it is a bit simplistic to say that the way different a different culture deals with death is wrong

I did not say that.

Thai culture has their own ways of dealing with death totally agree. However in all my time here I have never met a Thai national who says the way we deal with death in our family is to display my dead child's body on channel 7 and repeat the footage every 3 hours............

I would put a lot of money on the fact no family permission was given to show this actual footage - seems to be the way with Thai media.

Agreed it might in the short-term make people take care their child's actions with toys and supervision etc maybe this week. but in the long-term it will make no difference.

It's like when you witness a serious car accident while driving..........you are shocked so you drive slower for the next few miles taking "

more care" but the next day its back to how you drove before - its just the way the human brain works because you were unrelated to the accident.

anyway we can agree to disagree - but i see no benefit coming out of displaying that poor child on national tv - totally unecessary and if you ask me inappropiate.

[canuckamuck]

I am constantly reminded of the strange contrasts that exist in Thailand. Within a family structure, or between friends, Thais seem to be the most caring and compassionate people I know. But anything outside of that bubble is fair game. Many times I have come across a gory accident with a body sprawled out, and the people are standing around it chatting. The pictures in the paper are a greater example of this insensitivity, and blurring out the blood is pointless; people still see their relatives in some violent scenario. This is guaranteed to add to their suffering. This is a second hand form of violence.

There is very little sensitivity here for strangers; one only has to remember how foreigners outnumbered locals during the Tsunami cleanup, especially a few weeks later when the story cooled down.

Thailand has a lot of good things to offer, empathy isn’t one of them though.

[November Rain]

The thing is, though, despite all your arguments, it doesn't work as a deterrent. It doesn't reduce deaths. It just plays to the ghoulish or morbid side of people. It'll be Songkran soon. Despite all the campaigns, despite all the pictures, many many people will die on the roads. How do I know? Am I psychic? No, it happens every year. Despite the deaths of the year before & the graphic pictures, people will still behave stupidly & dangerously & people will still die.

Without wishing to harp on too much about my own experiences, my father jumped from the 6th or 7th floor of a building in BKK. What was the "reasoning" behind publishing a picture of his body? Don't jump from tall buildings? Don't we know that, already? Was anyone actually thinking that that might be a good idea, but stopped when they saw my father's body in the newspaper? Somehow I doubt it. This is just an excuse to keep publishing these pictures.

Yes, there have been graphic campaigns in the West using such images that have had an impact. But, as pointed out, it's a whole different culture here. I genuinely think that most Thais think it will never happen to them.

Another example (sorry to keep going on about my own experiences, but it's easier for me to use what I know), last year my boyfriend died of alcohol related illness. He was in a coma for 2 weeks & some of his friends visited. Just before he was due to "go", the doctor warned me & I was able to call all of his friends, who came to say goodbye. They are virtually all heavy drinkers/alcoholics, too. I had hoped that seeing their friend in that state & then dying would make just one of them rethink his attitude to alcohol. No such luck, they were drinking lao khao at the funeral, and one year on, nothing's changed. I truly believe there is a "won't happen to me" belief prevalent in the psyche of many Thais, so these pictures serve no purpose, apart from selling newspapers...

[marshbags]

I've had this argument with editors before but rarely won. You can write all the catchy slogans you want about drunk driving but they'll never have the impact that a photo of a dead kid and a screaming parent on page one will.

A sad but realistic truth.

Unfortunately, i,m sorry to say because of the repetative showing of these very distressful photo,s, that Thai,s have become immune to these shocking displays.

I tend to shift my vision of focus once a hint of this sort of thing is on display.

marshbags

[dgoz]

I personally think it is a very good thing as it means death isn't hidden away but something in the post for everyone. In the case of the 18 month old baby this morning it emphasised how dangerous it is to leave a child unattended. The baby chocked on a toy. I would imagine that some of you would disagree with me.

I agree with you but not because I want or need to see dead bodies but because I am totally against one of the most dangerous things in any society; censorship.

[garro]

The thing is, though, despite all your arguments, it doesn't work as a deterrent. It doesn't reduce deaths. It just plays to the ghoulish or morbid side of people. It'll be Songkran soon. Despite all the campaigns, despite all the pictures, many many people will die on the roads. How do I know? Am I psychic? No, it happens every year. Despite the deaths of the year before & the graphic pictures, people will still behave stupidly & dangerously & people will still die.

Without wishing to harp on too much about my own experiences, my father jumped from the 6th or 7th floor of a building in BKK. What was the "reasoning" behind publishing a picture of his body? Don't jump from tall buildings? Don't we know that, already? Was anyone actually thinking that that might be a good idea, but stopped when they saw my father's body in the newspaper? Somehow I doubt it. This is just an excuse to keep publishing these pictures.

Yes, there have been graphic campaigns in the West using such images that have had an impact. But, as pointed out, it's a whole different culture here. I genuinely think that most Thais think it will never happen to them.

Another example (sorry to keep going on about my own experiences, but it's easier for me to use what I know), last year my boyfriend died of alcohol related illness. He was in a coma for 2 weeks & some of his friends visited. Just before he was due to "go", the doctor warned me & I was able to call all of his friends, who came to say goodbye. They are virtually all heavy drinkers/alcoholics, too. I had hoped that seeing their friend in that state & then dying would make just one of them rethink his attitude to alcohol. No such luck, they were drinking lao khao at the funeral, and one year on, nothing's changed. I truly believe there is a "won't happen to me" belief prevalent in the psyche of many Thais, so these pictures serve no purpose, apart from selling newspapers...

Sorry NR but while many people will feel invincible I do believe that some people will listen and change their behaviour accordingly. If only one person does this and prevents an accident it will be worth it. Unfortuanetly my argument is not provable as there are no records of accidents which could have happened.

[garro]

I also think that there would be less war in the world if the bodies of dead soldiers were on display. It might make war a bit more realistic for people.

[dekka007]

censorship

I fail to see the link between censorship and the blatant disrepect for the child and family simply for the need to increase viewing figures for the advertisers on channel 7 therefore increasing profit.

[canuckamuck]

I also think that there would be less war in the world if the bodies of dead soldiers were on display. It might make war a bit more realistic for people.

I appreciate your idealism Garro, but that’s a shot in the dark. Not having pictures of freshly deceased relatives in your morning paper is a more tangible objective, than stopping the stupidity of humans in the future. It’s a violent world but respecting the feelings of mourners is a simple courtesy understood by most developed nations.

If you want to stop war, start teaching people to respect each other. If we can’t be compassionate to a widow or a bereaved mother, how will we care about a stranger?

[garro]

I also think that there would be less war in the world if the bodies of dead soldiers were on display. It might make war a bit more realistic for people.

I appreciate your idealism Garro, but that’s a shot in the dark. Not having pictures of freshly deceased relatives in your morning paper is a more tangible objective, than stopping the stupidity of humans in the future. It’s a violent world but respecting the feelings of mourners is a simple courtesy understood by most developed nations.

If you want to stop war, start teaching people to respect each other. If we can’t be compassionate to a widow or a bereaved mother, how will we care about a stranger?

Sorry canuckamuck but I completely disagree. I think the reason why these pictures are not shown in the west has zilch to do with respect for the deceased relative. You don't have to look very hard at the western media to see how they regulary disregard the feelings of relatives of the recently deceased. This disrespect goes much futher than a few distasteful pictures. Think of the death of many celebs such as Princess Diane in Britain. No I don't think it is due to respect for mourners but more to do with death being such a taboo subject in the west. If people in the west weren't afraid of death so much I am pretty sure that there would be dead bodies on every page.

[chingching]

I also think that there would be less war in the world if the bodies of dead soldiers were on display. It might make war a bit more realistic for people.

I totally agree with this, the history of warfare is the progression from in your face blood and guts, to war using a game boy controller. A lot easier to kill a million people if you don't hear them screaming. I'm almost 60 years old and real life I think I have only seen 1 real dead body outside of a mortuary. On tv and the movies prob. thousands and thousands.

[November Rain]

I also think that there would be less war in the world if the bodies of dead soldiers were on display. It might make war a bit more realistic for people.

I appreciate your idealism Garro, but that’s a shot in the dark. Not having pictures of freshly deceased relatives in your morning paper is a more tangible objective, than stopping the stupidity of humans in the future. It’s a violent world but respecting the feelings of mourners is a simple courtesy understood by most developed nations.

If you want to stop war, start teaching people to respect each other. If we can’t be compassionate to a widow or a bereaved mother, how will we care about a stranger?

Sorry canuckamuck but I completely disagree. I think the reason why these pictures are not shown in the west has zilch to do with respect for the deceased relative. You don't have to look very hard at the western media to see how they regulary disregard the feelings of relatives of the recently deceased. This disrespect goes much futher than a few distasteful pictures. Think of the death of many celebs such as Princess Diane in Britain. No I don't think it is due to respect for mourners but more to do with death being such a taboo subject in the west. If people in the west weren't afraid of death so much I am pretty sure that there would be dead bodies on every page.

You mention Princess Diana. Did you know that pictures were taken of her as she was dying in the car? Seemingly the decision on whether to publish the pictures was "if she lives - yes, publish. If she dies - no, don't". Whether that was compassion, decency, taboo or fear of lawsuits, I don't know.

You may be correct, garro. It may be more to do with taboo than compassion in the West. All I can say, from a bereaved person's point of view is: if it's taboo, long may that taboo continue. It's not a nice experience to see your loved one's dead body in a newspaper or on television & I feel for each & every person that is forced to go through that in order to "educate" others or sell newspapers or raise viewing figures.

[dekka007]

All I can say, from a bereaved person's point of view is: if it's taboo, long may that taboo continue

Agree 100%. It would seem to me the "Pro" lets show deceased loved ones on tv and in the press are those who have not experienced the great loss and pain from losing a partner or a child. My wife died at the age of 32 while in my arms 3 years ago and believe me the thought of seeing some assh*le publish pictures of her on tv and in the press makes me feel physically sick - for the sake of greed and profiteering.

You honestly think channel 7 was thinking we can do some good by broadcasting these scenes............boll*x. it's all about the MONEY.

[canuckamuck]

Sorry canuckamuck but I completely disagree. I think the reason why these pictures are not shown in the west has zilch to do with respect for the deceased relative. You don't have to look very hard at the western media to see how they regulary disregard the feelings of relatives of the recently deceased. This disrespect goes much futher than a few distasteful pictures. Think of the death of many celebs such as Princess Diane in Britain. No I don't think it is due to respect for mourners but more to do with death being such a taboo subject in the west. If people in the west weren't afraid of death so much I am pretty sure that there would be dead bodies on every page.

If you want to know why western papers don’t show bodies, at least not their faces, ask them. It’s because it is generally against the law. Either it’s too gross for public consumption, or they have no approval from the family to show the picture. It is not the newspaper respecting the family, it is the government protecting people from callous media profiteers. It is called respecting basic human rights. It is not wrong to respect people’s feelings. It is wrong to desensitize people to or to glamorize violence.

Celebrities slip through cracks, the assumption is they sold their right to privacy by becoming public figures. Is this right? No. They should have their privacy and respect too. Unless you’re a Paris Hilton type, showing total contempt for civility and self respect. Some celebs are self made pigs.

Showing people images of death desensitizes people to images of death. If you lived 20 years without seeing a dead guy and then saw someone dead in the street, you would be a bit traumatized. This is good, it makes you afraid of violence. Thai people see dead people everyday in the media, they rarely even think about it. The papers are full of domestic violence. I can’t see that your system is working. Violence breeds violence.

[garro]

All I can say, from a bereaved person's point of view is: if it's taboo, long may that taboo continue

Agree 100%. It would seem to me the "Pro" lets show deceased loved ones on tv and in the press are those who have not experienced the great loss and pain from losing a partner or a child. My wife died at the age of 32 while in my arms 3 years ago and believe me the thought of seeing some assh*le publish pictures of her on tv and in the press makes me feel physically sick - for the sake of greed and profiteering.

You honestly think channel 7 was thinking we can do some good by broadcasting these scenes............boll*x. it's all about the MONEY.

I remember a few years ago in the UK they showed a picture of dead young woman with a needle sticking out of her arm. She had been dead alone in her flat for a few weeks before the pictures were taking. These pictures were shown because her family thought it would help other heroin users to see the dangers in their actions. I can still remember these pictures as they were quite shocking and I firmly believed they shocked many and likely made people think.

While I have not lost a child or partner I have worked in palliative care and so have experienced the misery death can cause for families. While much less extreme I have regulary experienced the loss of patients who I cared for. This is the reason why I now won't nurse full-time again.

My experience has been that the fact that death is such a taboo has meant that this difficult period is made more difficult for the patient and their families.

I do not believe these pictures are shown purely to sell newspapers.

[Jet Gorgon]

I'm with NR on this, but I thank Mdeland for reminding me to live my life to the fullest everyday.

And Dgoz, I finally agree with something you said: no censorship. However, I believe this issue relates more to a society's definition of respect, not censorship.

To me, showing the faces of the deceased in the media is total disrespect for the family, friends and loved ones. I don't need gore, just give me the written word.

[canuckamuck]

There isn’t an ounce of ink that goes into a mainstream newspaper that is intended for anything other than profit. The shareholders wouldn’t have it.

[garro]

Sorry canuckamuck but I completely disagree. I think the reason why these pictures are not shown in the west has zilch to do with respect for the deceased relative. You don't have to look very hard at the western media to see how they regulary disregard the feelings of relatives of the recently deceased. This disrespect goes much futher than a few distasteful pictures. Think of the death of many celebs such as Princess Diane in Britain. No I don't think it is due to respect for mourners but more to do with death being such a taboo subject in the west. If people in the west weren't afraid of death so much I am pretty sure that there would be dead bodies on every page.

If you want to know why western papers don’t show bodies, at least not their faces, ask them. It’s because it is generally against the law. Either it’s too gross for public consumption, or they have no approval from the family to show the picture. It is not the newspaper respecting the family, it is the government protecting people from callous media profiteers. It is called respecting basic human rights. It is not wrong to respect people’s feelings. It is wrong to desensitize people to or to glamorize violence.

Celebrities slip through cracks, the assumption is they sold their right to privacy by becoming public figures. Is this right? No. They should have their privacy and respect too. Unless you’re a Paris Hilton type, showing total contempt for civility and self respect. Some celebs are self made pigs.

Showing people images of death desensitizes people to images of death. If you lived 20 years without seeing a dead guy and then saw someone dead in the street, you would be a bit traumatized. This is good, it makes you afraid of violence. Thai people see dead people everyday in the media, they rarely even think about it. The papers are full of domestic violence. I can’t see that your system is working. Violence breeds violence.

Are you serious? I would feel much safer walking the streets in Thailand than any street in the west. Despite their protection from pictures of the dead many in the west have zero problem inflicting violence on others. You don't hear of many Thai children going on the rampage with guns in their schools.

[dekka007]

These pictures were shown because her family thought it would help other heroin users to see the dangers in their actions

Now there is the key words. It does not work like that in Thailand not just channel 7 but other pathetic attempts at journalism in this country such as pattayacitynews for example. Your child dies and they get to the scene before you they will take their video and take their photos and before you even know about it....it will be published/broadcast and on the web.

While I have not lost a child or partner I have worked in palliative care and so have experienced the misery death

I understand what you are saying and palliative care is a very important and difficult job. However with all due respect - you have no idea of the pain until you have felt it first hand - believe me you will never and I truely mean never understand it until you have been through it. You will have seen the effects / pain of death with your occupation - but you have not felt the pain.

I honestly think if it had been your child / wife in the media - your views in this topic would be completely different. You can say now your views would not change but believe me they would.

I would feel much safer walking the streets in Thailand than any street in the west

This issue raises its head a lot about feeling safer in Thailand. I am not sure whether it is just people being naive or because they don't hear about it in the newspaper they feel safer. But Thailand is a very brutal and violent country - life is cheap here and you can end up in a serious trouble very quickly over something which seems irrelavant. It's not that safe always keep your guard and wits about you.

Edited March 28, 2007 by dekka007

[canuckamuck]

Are you serious? I would feel much safer walking the streets in Thailand than any street in the west. Despite their protection from pictures of the dead many in the west have zero problem inflicting violence on others. You don't hear of many Thai children going on the rampage with guns in their schools.

As I am not an expert on crime rates, I will resist comparing probability of violence. I will say if Thai kids had a generous access to handguns, it would have happened here already. Have you ever seen Thai kids play? It's all about smacking each other on the head or shooting or martial arts. Media generated fantasies being acted out.

If you believe compassion is greater here than in the west, you are welcome to that opinion. I can think of many, places in my Canadian homeland where comparibly, there is very little violent crime.

Profiting from others grief is all those pictures are about.