Retirement extension via monthly B65K rejected in Khon Kaen

[rexall]

I am admin for an expat forum in Khon Kaen. There have been three disturbing reports recently about failures to obtain retirement extensions via the monthly B65K method.

The first involved a person who had his 12 B65K deposits, but on his bank statement, only 11 of them showed as foreign transfers even though he was able to prove that the 12th deposit was from offshore using something other than his bank book.  He was eventually allowed after making special arrangements with the I/O.  

Just the past week two applicants were flatly refused the B65K method even though they claim they complied with all the regulations and that their paperwork was in order.  The I/O insisted that they use the B800K method instead.  One guy happened to have the B800K, and so was able to get his extension after regrouping and sorting out things with his bank.  The other guy had to revise his plans and go to another Imm office and apply for an extension based on marriage.

This is disturbing as for the past year, these threads have made it quite clear that B800K or B65K monthly were both acceptable options so long as you complied with all the regulations.

Anyone else have similar experiences?

[Matzzon]

7 minutes ago, rexall said:

even though they claim they complied with all the regulations and that their paperwork was in order.

It just might be the word "claim" here that is causing the problem. I am pretty sure that Khon Kaen as well as all other offices in Thailand approves 1 year retirement extensions if "all" papers are in order.

[rexall]

Thanks, Matzzon. It's possible. That is why I used the word "claim."  I don't know them personally, but do find the stories credible. One of the guys is a real straight-shooter, "law & order" type who impresses me as someone who makes sure to dot all of his i's and cross all of his t's. Neither of the stories involved any specific objections from the I/O other than that the B65K method was unacceptable. 

We'll see. But two in one week is too much of a coincidence not to raise a red flag..

[4MyEgo]

14 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

It just might be the word "claim" here that is causing the problem. I am pretty sure that Khon Kaen as well as all other offices in Thailand approves 1 year retirement extensions if "all" papers are in order.

Got to agree with you there.

 

I make it a note to dress appropriately and wai when I walk in to the immigration office that does my annual extension and 90 day renewals, that said there was once that I forgot to take photos when I submitted my extension based on marriage to a Thai, it was a Friday, and I was told that I could send new ones in to the I/O on his LINE profile, he would download and print them off and put them with the application, i.e. if I would like to donate something to their Xmas fund, of which I did as it would have been a 3 hour return trip, money spent on fuel and my time etc etc, wife didn't want too....lol, so the 500 baht was worth it IMO, in other words he did me a favor as opposed to me returning on Monday.

 

The above said you might ask why don't you do the 90 days online (have been thinking about it) as we do the TM30 online, but I find the hour 300 drive for a 5 minute wait to be, although annoying, they remember the face, little chat and smile, so that facial profile, wai, smile, may want to assist if there is a problem, sometimes for a small donations, other times, like for a re-entry permit, I forgot to photocopy some stuff, mai pen rai, will do for you, so the face behind the 90 day renewal being seen an extra 3-4 times a year helps in my opinion, although if its a big office, you might just be a number.

[zydeco]

Living in servile fear is no way to go through your retirement years. Maintaining human dignity and respect for yourself, to me, is more important than bowing and scraping and hoping some immigration office will have anything but contempt for you because you did so. 

[luckyluke]

5 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Maintaining human dignity and respect for yourself

Relative concept;

 

usually different from one person to another. 

 

How important the desire/need to obtain what is requested, is an important factor that influences one's behaviour. 

 

[Matzzon]

34 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Got to agree with you there.

 

I make it a note to dress appropriately and wai when I walk in to the immigration office that does my annual extension and 90 day renewals, that said there was once that I forgot to take photos when I submitted my extension based on marriage to a Thai, it was a Friday, and I was told that I could send new ones in to the I/O on his LINE profile, he would download and print them off and put them with the application, i.e. if I would like to donate something to their Xmas fund, of which I did as it would have been a 3 hour return trip, money spent on fuel and my time etc etc, wife didn't want too....lol, so the 500 baht was worth it IMO, in other words he did me a favor as opposed to me returning on Monday.

 

The above said you might ask why don't you do the 90 days online (have been thinking about it) as we do the TM30 online, but I find the hour 300 drive for a 5 minute wait to be, although annoying, they remember the face, little chat and smile, so that facial profile, wai, smile, may want to assist if there is a problem, sometimes for a small donations, other times, like for a re-entry permit, I forgot to photocopy some stuff, mai pen rai, will do for you, so the face behind the 90 day renewal being seen an extra 3-4 times a year helps in my opinion, although if its a big office, you might just be a number.

Wow! That´s an approach to be proud over. Same goes for me, and it helps as well as work here too. I belong to a small office, and they really know and remember everybody. Last time the Office chief got up from his chair, walked around the desk and handed me my passport when finished. Very nice and friendly, and never a single problem.

[kingofthemountain]

13 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

50 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I was told that I could send new ones in to the I/O on his LINE profile, he would download and print them off and put them with the application, i.e. if I would like to donate something to their Xmas fund, of which I did as it would have been a 3 hour return trip, money spent on fuel and my time etc etc, wife didn't want too....lol, so the 500 baht was worth it IMO, in other words he did me a favor as opposed to me returning on Monday.

 

The above said you might ask why don't you do the 90 days online (have been thinking about it) as we do the TM30 online, but I find the hour 300 drive for a 5 minute wait to be, although annoying, they remember the face, little chat and smile, so that facial profile, wai, smile, may want to assist if there is a problem, sometimes for a small donations, other times, like for a re-entry permit, I forgot to photocopy some stuff, mai pen rai, will do for you, so the face behind the 90 day renewal being seen an extra 3-4 times a year helps in my opinion, although if its a big office, you might just be a number.

14 minutes ago, Matzzon said

Wow! That´s an approach to be proud over. Same goes for me, and it helps as well as work here too. I belong to a small office, and they really know and remember everybody. Last time the Office chief got up from his chair, walked around the desk and handed me my passport when finished. Very nice and friendly, and never a single problem.

I am very surprised to see you approve and even value corruption

when you are the first to want to lynch the overstayers for their ''crime''

against the thai law, A morality with variable geometry or something like that?

[Peter Denis]

Somewhat off-topic > but OP wrote: The other guy had to revise his plans and go to another Imm office and apply for an extension based on marriage.

Is it indeed possible to 'shop around' for friendly IOs to apply for an extension of stay?

That would be interesting to know when there are differences between provinces in how the OA health-insurance requirement is interpreted.

[rexall]

This is very interesting, guys. What I am hoping for is to identify if this is a pattern that extends beyond Khon Kaen and beyond these two incidents,  or if it  is an outlier.  I don't this so, but maybe the two guys I mentioned had a menacing look in their eyes and gravy stains on their Make America Great Again T-Shirts. As I said these seem pretty "meat, potatoes and beer" kind of guys and they have been following this subject along with the rest of us the past year. But it would help to know if they did something inadvertently or advertently to <deleted> off the I/O.  It would be even more interesting to know if this is happening to others.

[Vacuum]

1 minute ago, Peter Denis said:

Somewhat off-topic > but OP wrote: The other guy had to revise his plans and go to another Imm office and apply for an extension based on marriage.

Is it indeed possible to 'shop around' for friendly IOs to apply for an extension of stay?

That would be interesting to know when there are differences between provinces in how the OA health-insurance requirement is interpreted.

My understanding is that you have to apply where you reside.

[Matzzon]

17 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

I am very surprised to see you approve and even value corruption

Now we are there again. What corruption? There is no corruption in Thailand. It´s only honest people paying each other for their services. Some with a work well done, others with real money. What´s the problem?
 

Quote

when you are the first to want to lynch the overstayers for their ''crime''

Yep, to the chopping block with all of the filthy crusaders on overtime. That´s right! Actually waiting for todays good news to drop in. ???? 
 

Quote

against the thai law, A morality with variable geometry or something like that?

Don´t worry, all is fully legal and above board. Yes, geometry is always variable. Sometimes it´s round, while another time triangular.

[rexall]

1 minute ago, Peter Denis said:

Somewhat off-topic > but OP wrote: The other guy had to revise his plans and go to another Imm office and apply for an extension based on marriage.

Is it indeed possible to 'shop around' for friendly IOs to apply for an extension of stay?

That would be interesting to know when there are differences between provinces in how the OA health-insurance requirement is interpreted.

Technically not. However, in practice it happens, so I have heard. I am not sure, but possibly the wife of they guy I mentioned owns a house in the other jurisdiction.  Although, nothing would stop him from returning to Khon Kaen to apply for marriage. Again, I dunno, but assume it has someting to do with the fact that he can come up witht he B400K, but not B800K.

[PatOngo]

1 hour ago, rexall said:

This is disturbing

What is disturbing is people who think they can retire but can't scrape together 800,000 baht!

[kingofthemountain]

1 minute ago, Matzzon said:

Now we are there again. What corruption? There is no corruption in Thailand. It´s only honest people paying each other for their services. Some with a work well done, others ith real money. What´s the problem?

The problem is you was a strong defender of the legality and suddenly you try to paint it in pink because you are in full contradiction with yourself but a bribe is a bribe and it's against the Thai law

for a public agent to accept payment to do something for someone in relation with their official job.

It's called corruption in Thailand and everywhere in the world.

[john terry1001]

4 minutes ago, Vacuum said:

6 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Somewhat off-topic > but OP wrote: The other guy had to revise his plans and go to another Imm office and apply for an extension based on marriage.

Is it indeed possible to 'shop around' for friendly IOs to apply for an extension of stay?

That would be interesting to know when there are differences between provinces in how the OA health-insurance requirement is interpreted.

My understanding is that you have to apply where you reside.

I also understood you had to go to your local immigration office in the province where you reside.

 

In places like Chonburi Province there are two immigration offices, Jomtien (Pattaya) and Si Racha. I know you could go to either in the past but last year when I went to Jomtien to do my extension I was told I lived closer to Si Racha so they refused to do it and told me I must go there to do the extension. 

[rexall]

4 minutes ago, PatOngo said:

What is disturbing is people who think they can retire but can't scrape together 800,000 baht!

Mr. Ongo, what is it about that exactly that disturbs you?  

[zydeco]

2 minutes ago, PatOngo said:

What is disturbing is people who think they can retire but can't scrape together 800,000 baht!

Really? If they did indeed follow all the rules and regulations for the 65K per month transfer and managed their money with that expectation, then you think it's disturbing? How do you know what their assets are? How do you know they don't have 800K available overseas but were blindsided with no way to meet the two month deposit requirement? Yea, you can take them to task for the way they may have behaved. But you don't know. Look I follow the rules when going to CW, which requires (although it doesn't seem to be enforced) that people wear trousers and shoes. I go in trousers, button up shirt, and shoes just like every other place I go to in Bangkok. I'm also polite, as I would be to anybody I met. But I don't give bribes or fall on the floor and wai like Buddha is behind the desk. 

[4MyEgo]

33 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

I am very surprised to see you approve and even value corruption

when you are the first to want to lynch the overstayers for their ''crime''

against the thai law, A morality with variable geometry or something like that?

I never said that I approve or even value corruption.

 

I also don't write the law and of course am entitled to my opinion on overstayers, but perhaps you didn't read my post reply on overstayers further down the post, might want to refresh, "up to you".

 

I saw his gesture as a win/win, i.e. saving me a 3 hour return trip, which would have wasted my time, fuel into the environment, and my pocket, and contributing to their Xmas fund saved me all of the above, for 500 baht, chicken feed, he could have told me to come back, that would have peeeed me off.

 

I see no corruption here, a business transaction maybe, besides I once had to pay them 1,500 baht to come to our place to take photos together, as they have to pay for their own fuel, I confirmed this with a friend of a friend who has a brother-in-law who is in immigration, a bit like the cops having to purchase their own guns.

 

I consider myself an opportunist, if it works and saves me time and is for a small amount of money, sure thing, but to have to pay an agent 20k-30k to stay in the country because I don't have the funds, well that's got to hurt, but each to their own, and that's what I call getting lynched using your word.

[stevenl]

2 hours ago, rexall said:

The other guy had to revise his plans and go to another Imm office and apply for an extension based on marriage.

Since this is not possible, I'm sure there is more to it than 'having all papers in order but rejected anyway'.

[rexall]

The issue of whether payment is via an "agent" or by direct gratuity to an I/O is irrelevant to the determination of "corruption." It is also irrelevant whether the money is obtained by extortion or is voluntarily offered as a "bribe." The ethical point is the same.  You want to dance with a pig, fine.  Just don't dress her up in a fancy dress and pretend she is a princess!

[rexall]

6 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Since this is not possible, I'm sure there is more to it than 'having all papers in order but rejected anyway'.

I set that up incorrectly.  The one guy in question was applying for a marriage extension, not retirement. Same issue, though; he wanted to use the monthly income method rather than B400K deposit. [As an aside, do the rules for marriage extensions require offshore money or can it be from any source?] Sorry, I don't think he was using a different Imm office. He was posting on the forum in Khon Kaen so assumed that is where he applied first.  My bad.  Sorry for introducing confusion into an already confusing topic.  I am confirming this info now.

[Sheryl]

I haven't kept track of where, but since the new regs came out I have seen some reports of IOs either "strongly encouraging"  the lump sum in the bank method  over income method or only accepting it, in the case of people whose Embassies no longer issue income letters.

 

As with so much else I think Immigration has done a poor job of orienting provincial staff to the new requirements so some  are unsure what is "correct" and prefer to avoid the risk of being wrong. Also, sometimes it is just a desire to minimize work. Usually I think the 2 combined.

 

Even more common seems to be refusal to accept the combination method. That is  somewhat understandable as the police order is pretty garbled about it.

 

In terms of what to do -- by definition anyone having to use the income method is from one of the countries that discontinued issuing income letters. Anyone faced with this problem should inform their Embassy that the supposed alternative does not in fact work in practice in their Province, give them the specifics and ask them to advocate with Immigration to ensure that all provincial IOs accept bank statements of foreign transfers as per the Police Order.

 

An  Embassy will not be able to step in or otherwise help with an individual's extension,  but they can try to address the systemic issue over time by making higher ups at Immigration aware of it.

 

Otherwise as far as both senior Immigration officials and these Embassies know, the income method documentation works fine and the only people  with problems are people not bringing in the required amount. It is up to all of us to educate them to the realities.

[UKresonant]

12 minutes ago, PatOngo said:

What is disturbing is people who think they can retire but can't scrape together 800,000 baht!

Maybe they took financial advice, and instead of taking many multiples of 800000 baht as fluid investments & cash, they took the adviser's advice and left in their pension generating income. Better to be locked in there and decision made, rather than be tempted into making poor financial decisions by pressure sales techniques ????

 

Why would you import the funds at a very poor exchange rate then make them unavailable in a conditional deposit, especially when there is no continuity on offer as recent events have  demonstrated.

 

If you have "scraped" together 800000, you may need it elsewhere! If refused an extension because a Bank has put a code on something, that is totally outwith your control, even though you have actually been lucky enough to have carried out the precarious requirement of the monthly currency transfer, without some hicup in the banking chain and probable at some cost.

 

Sounds a very historical view, not considering current unstable circumstances.

[rexall]

5 minutes ago, PatOngo said:

Generally, it is disturbing that someone can work all their life and not be able to set aside the amount required to live in an adopted country, personally, I don't give a damn!

Sir, either it is disturbing, or you "don't give a damn!"  It can't be both.  

Personally, I go with "I don't give a damn!" because at the end of the day, it really is none of your bees wax, and has absolutely zero impact on your life. OTOH, there are vast numbers of people, possibly thousands, many of them reading this forum, have been dutifully transfering B65K per month from offshore to comply with requirements which have been made abundantly clear over the past year.  If the incidents I describe represent a pattern, people need to know about it.  Getting blindsided with something like this can be not only be incredibly inconvenient logistically, but emotionally quite disturbing. That feeling of having the rug pulled out from under you when you least expected it is referred to in psychology as "crazy making" for a reason.

Anyway, I guess the bottom like is to not become too complacent.  Especially when they raise the B800K to One Million without notice and you don't happen to have the extra laying around, and in any event can't make it magically appear in your bank two months prior.

[zydeco]

3 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I haven't kept track of where, but since the new regs came out I have seen some reports of IOs either "strongly encouraging"  the lump sum in the bank method  over income method or only accepting it, in the case of people whose Embassies no longer issue income letters.

 

As with so much else I think Immigration has done a poor job of orienting provincial staff to the new requirements so some  are unsure what is "correct" and prefer to avoid the risk of being wrong. Also, sometimes it is just a desire to minimize work. Usually I think the 2 combined.

 

Even more common seems to be refusal to accept the combination method. That is  soemwhat understandable as the police order is pretty garbled about it.

Both these, the denial of the combination method and the reports of possible refusals to accept the 65K/month are worrisome. If true, it would mean the screw has just tightened one more notch. 

[Matzzon]

36 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

The problem is you was a strong defender of the legality and suddenly you try to paint it in pink because you are in full contradiction with yourself but a bribe is a bribe and it's against the Thai law

for a public agent to accept payment to do something for someone in relation with their official job.

It's called corruption in Thailand and everywhere in the world.

No, no, no! You got it all wrong here. A bribe is when you offer to pay somebody to do something they would refuse to do otherwise. here it was a simple payment for a service offered.

[zydeco]

2 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

No, no, no! You got it all wrong here. A bribe is when you offer to pay somebody to do something they would refuse to do otherwise. here it was a simple payment for a service offered.

Ah, protection money.

[john terry1001]

2 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

here it was a simple payment for a service offered

But, would the IO still offer the service if no payment was forthcoming?

 

[rexall]

3 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

No, no, no! You got it all wrong here. A bribe is when you offer to pay somebody to do something they would refuse to do otherwise. here it was a simple payment for a service offered.

Well, if you are not a lawyer, you should be.