Thai Junta Chief Calls For Emergency Rule In Bangkok

[blaze]

When you ask the farmers why, they respond by saying it is all thanks to the China FTA that Thaksin signed. As we sit and ruminate on the future of Thailand and basically all assume that Thaksin and TRT enjoy the complete unthinking support of the uneducated masses, these precise pople are deserting the PTV/TRT cause at a high rate. Even the village headmen seem to recognize that they can no longer hold the villagers into the TRT apparatus. It does make you wonder why the local reporters arent up looking into this but then again I guess they dont want to soil their designer clothes and mix with the unwashed illiterate.

Well, hammered, and that is exactly the reason why this coup was entirely unnecessary, even counter productive for the democratization of Thailand. You have outlined why TRT rule would have inevitably led to further empowerment of the upcountry population. These people are not as stupid as assumed by the anti Thaksin city folks, and would have, and did realize themselves which problems Thaksin has caused in the long run.

They may have tired of TRT, but they are not in favor of the military either (at least the ones i know).

But this empowerment is what the present coup leaders do not want, and the resulting uncomfortable questions to be asked by the poeple who they prefer not to raise their voices.

If the elections would have been allowed without military interference it would have been only a matter of time that the upcountry population would have tired of TRT populism, and there would have been a very large chance that TRT would have been beaten at the ballot box.

Now though, i fear that the Thai political scene will be dominated by old style factional infights, weak visionless coalition governments and constantly shifting powers in the military. And inevitably blood will be flowing. We have seen it, we will see it again.

And i am convinced that this time it will be far worse, if you calculate in the dooming ethnic/religious war in the south.

Time has run out. There is no way back anymore.

Hi Colpyat. What interests me most about the move away from TRT by farmers in the North is that nobody is reporting on it or maybe not interested in it. As it would seem to be tied to where we are now I find this nothing short of amazing especially when within minutes of arriving in a village it is obvious. Or maybe I am being niaive and the struggle between TRT and the others has and remains only a struggle between the powerful, and it suits all to just make stupid statements that the peasants up North support Thaksin and TRT. Maybe the fear of a peasant mob descending on Bangkok is soemthing all sides want to perpetuate.

I fail to understand why the emphasis on Thaksin. The big danger to the entrenched powers of the country is a politically aware electorate which will vote in its own best interests- as politically aware electorates do in all democracies. And the best interests of this electorate- being overwhelmingly poor- will inevitably challenge the priviledge of the wealthy elites - with or without Thaksin at the helm.

Charismatic leaders are made- not born. They are made by circumstances- and in Thailand the circumstances are ripe. Imagine a firebrand like Morales or Chavez = and don't think that the educated elites haven't imagined such a scenario. All of this stuff about Thaksin is a smokescreen.

The elites can preach 'sufficiency economy' all they want- but sooner or later the poor will recognize that for what it is- an attempt by those with a vested interest in the exploitation of the poor- to make poverty palatable- and they won't accept that if alternatives are present. Sadly for that group - democracy will present those alternatives. It's just a matter of time.

The army with its ties to old money (not 'old' in the sense of ten years ago either) is well aware of that fact- democracy is a bigger threat to the real elites of this country than even the troubles in the South. And Thaksin has NOTHING to do with that fact.

So all this talk about the danger of Thaksin or even TRT or even TRT individuals, past or present, participating in the next elections is a bogeyman. The real danger and one that the Generals certainly recognize- is participation by the poor.

Edited April 1, 2007 by blaze

[ColPyat]

Hi Colpyat. What interests me most about the move away from TRT by farmers in the North is that nobody is reporting on it or maybe not interested in it. As it would seem to be tied to where we are now I find this nothing short of amazing especially when within minutes of arriving in a village it is obvious. Or maybe I am being niaive and the struggle between TRT and the others has and remains only a struggle between the powerful, and it suits all to just make stupid statements that the peasants up North support Thaksin and TRT. Maybe the fear of a peasant mob descending on Bangkok is soemthing all sides want to perpetuate.

M experience was always that the peasants up north, apart from the fanatics, have supported Thaksin only for the pro-poor policies he stood for. Mostly because nobody else had any pro-poor policies. And some of these policies did improve their life significantly, from their perspective.

That now some of these populist policies turn into the opposite, and recognizing this, is a healthy part of the democratic learning process.

Well, unfortunately that learning process has been cut short by the coup.

And yes, i am convinced that the struggle as represented by PAD, and especially the military coup and TRT is in fact nothing but a power struggle of the different elites who all are not exactly interested in an empowered class of peasants who might even take an active part in politics other than tools of the vested interests.

There are many things that are not talked or reported about here, both about the peasants upcountry, and the dire situation of the south.

[hammered]

When you ask the farmers why, they respond by saying it is all thanks to the China FTA that Thaksin signed. As we sit and ruminate on the future of Thailand and basically all assume that Thaksin and TRT enjoy the complete unthinking support of the uneducated masses, these precise pople are deserting the PTV/TRT cause at a high rate. Even the village headmen seem to recognize that they can no longer hold the villagers into the TRT apparatus. It does make you wonder why the local reporters arent up looking into this but then again I guess they dont want to soil their designer clothes and mix with the unwashed illiterate.

Well, hammered, and that is exactly the reason why this coup was entirely unnecessary, even counter productive for the democratization of Thailand. You have outlined why TRT rule would have inevitably led to further empowerment of the upcountry population. These people are not as stupid as assumed by the anti Thaksin city folks, and would have, and did realize themselves which problems Thaksin has caused in the long run.

They may have tired of TRT, but they are not in favor of the military either (at least the ones i know).

But this empowerment is what the present coup leaders do not want, and the resulting uncomfortable questions to be asked by the poeple who they prefer not to raise their voices.

If the elections would have been allowed without military interference it would have been only a matter of time that the upcountry population would have tired of TRT populism, and there would have been a very large chance that TRT would have been beaten at the ballot box.

Now though, i fear that the Thai political scene will be dominated by old style factional infights, weak visionless coalition governments and constantly shifting powers in the military. And inevitably blood will be flowing. We have seen it, we will see it again.

And i am convinced that this time it will be far worse, if you calculate in the dooming ethnic/religious war in the south.

Time has run out. There is no way back anymore.

Hi Colpyat. What interests me most about the move away from TRT by farmers in the North is that nobody is reporting on it or maybe not interested in it. As it would seem to be tied to where we are now I find this nothing short of amazing especially when within minutes of arriving in a village it is obvious. Or maybe I am being niaive and the struggle between TRT and the others has and remains only a struggle between the powerful, and it suits all to just make stupid statements that the peasants up North support Thaksin and TRT. Maybe the fear of a peasant mob descending on Bangkok is soemthing all sides want to perpetuate.

I fail to understand why the emphasis on Thaksin. The big danger to the entrenched powers of the country is a politically aware electorate which will vote in its own best interests- as politically aware electorates do in all democracies. And the best interests of this electorate- being overwhelmingly poor- will inevitably challenge the priviledge of the wealthy elites - with or without Thaksin at the helm.

Charismatic leaders are made- not born. They are made by circumstances- and in Thailand the circumstances are ripe. Imagine a firebrand like Morales or Chavez = and don't think that the educated elites haven't imagined such a scenario. All of this stuff about Thaksin is a smokescreen.

The elites can preach 'sufficiency economy' all they want- but sooner or later the poor will recognize that for what it is- an attempt by those with a vested interest in the exploitation of the poor- to make poverty palatable- and they won't accept that if alternatives are present. Sadly for that group - democracy will present those alternatives. It's just a matter of time.

The army with its ties to old money (not 'old' in the sense of ten years ago either) is well aware of that fact- democracy is a bigger threat to the real elites of this country than even the troubles in the South. And Thaksin has NOTHING to do with that fact.

So all this talk about the danger of Thaksin or even TRT or even TRT individuals, past or present, participating in the next elections is a bogeyman. The real danger and one that the Generals certainly recognize- is participation by the poor.

To be honest I still feel we are a long way from a politically aware electorate. I would honestly think that a lot of the poor will be even more disillusioned with what will basically be the same bunch of politicians under different party banners. No doubt many will also still listen to the advice of the village headman on what party or person seems best. Personally feel for the educated politcally aware top emerge in large numbers will take a fair bit of time yet, but we will see.

Now a Chavez would be interesting ( and Thaksin was certainly no Chavez) but as in Venezuela the only way a Chavez could avoid assassination and build a support base to nullify the old and business elites would be if he came from within the military. At this moment in time no Thai Chavez seems to be on the horizon. An interesting litle departure though to speculate on.

[blaze]

When you ask the farmers why, they respond by saying it is all thanks to the China FTA that Thaksin signed. As we sit and ruminate on the future of Thailand and basically all assume that Thaksin and TRT enjoy the complete unthinking support of the uneducated masses, these precise pople are deserting the PTV/TRT cause at a high rate. Even the village headmen seem to recognize that they can no longer hold the villagers into the TRT apparatus. It does make you wonder why the local reporters arent up looking into this but then again I guess they dont want to soil their designer clothes and mix with the unwashed illiterate.

Well, hammered, and that is exactly the reason why this coup was entirely unnecessary, even counter productive for the democratization of Thailand. You have outlined why TRT rule would have inevitably led to further empowerment of the upcountry population. These people are not as stupid as assumed by the anti Thaksin city folks, and would have, and did realize themselves which problems Thaksin has caused in the long run.

They may have tired of TRT, but they are not in favor of the military either (at least the ones i know).

But this empowerment is what the present coup leaders do not want, and the resulting uncomfortable questions to be asked by the poeple who they prefer not to raise their voices.

If the elections would have been allowed without military interference it would have been only a matter of time that the upcountry population would have tired of TRT populism, and there would have been a very large chance that TRT would have been beaten at the ballot box.

Now though, i fear that the Thai political scene will be dominated by old style factional infights, weak visionless coalition governments and constantly shifting powers in the military. And inevitably blood will be flowing. We have seen it, we will see it again.

And i am convinced that this time it will be far worse, if you calculate in the dooming ethnic/religious war in the south.

Time has run out. There is no way back anymore.

Hi Colpyat. What interests me most about the move away from TRT by farmers in the North is that nobody is reporting on it or maybe not interested in it. As it would seem to be tied to where we are now I find this nothing short of amazing especially when within minutes of arriving in a village it is obvious. Or maybe I am being niaive and the struggle between TRT and the others has and remains only a struggle between the powerful, and it suits all to just make stupid statements that the peasants up North support Thaksin and TRT. Maybe the fear of a peasant mob descending on Bangkok is soemthing all sides want to perpetuate.

I fail to understand why the emphasis on Thaksin. The big danger to the entrenched powers of the country is a politically aware electorate which will vote in its own best interests- as politically aware electorates do in all democracies. And the best interests of this electorate- being overwhelmingly poor- will inevitably challenge the priviledge of the wealthy elites - with or without Thaksin at the helm.

Charismatic leaders are made- not born. They are made by circumstances- and in Thailand the circumstances are ripe. Imagine a firebrand like Morales or Chavez = and don't think that the educated elites haven't imagined such a scenario. All of this stuff about Thaksin is a smokescreen.

The elites can preach 'sufficiency economy' all they want- but sooner or later the poor will recognize that for what it is- an attempt by those with a vested interest in the exploitation of the poor- to make poverty palatable- and they won't accept that if alternatives are present. Sadly for that group - democracy will present those alternatives. It's just a matter of time.

The army with its ties to old money (not 'old' in the sense of ten years ago either) is well aware of that fact- democracy is a bigger threat to the real elites of this country than even the troubles in the South. And Thaksin has NOTHING to do with that fact.

So all this talk about the danger of Thaksin or even TRT or even TRT individuals, past or present, participating in the next elections is a bogeyman. The real danger and one that the Generals certainly recognize- is participation by the poor.

To be honest I still feel we are a long way from a politically aware electorate. I would honestly think that a lot of the poor will be even more disillusioned with what will basically be the same bunch of politicians under different party banners. No doubt many will also still listen to the advice of the village headman on what party or person seems best. Personally feel for the educated politcally aware top emerge in large numbers will take a fair bit of time yet, but we will see.

Now a Chavez would be interesting ( and Thaksin was certainly no Chavez) but as in Venezuela the only way a Chavez could avoid assassination and build a support base to nullify the old and business elites would be if he came from within the military. At this moment in time no Thai Chavez seems to be on the horizon. An interesting litle departure though to speculate on.

I have to disagree Hammered. I think that the electorate has learned the essentials of democracy: the prinicple of majority rule, and an understanding that political parties can in fact improve the lives of the poor- not saying they DID- but that they CAN. They also understand- and so does every polititian in the land, that no party can expect to serve a second term that doesn't honor its pledges to the majority.

The voters need not have read Locke and Jefferson. They don't have to know the demarcation of jurisdiction exercised by the constitutional court (I'm from Canada I doubt most voters even know if we have a constitution- though they all know about the Charter of Rights). All they have to know is enough to say, "What do I get in exchange for my vote?". It's the same question that every voter in every democracy asks. .

It won't be utopia- utopias are the business of fascists and communists and theocrats- it might not even be good government- but it will be democracy.

[John K]

PTV threatens to sue Snoh

PTV Sunday threatened to sue Pracharaj Party leader Snoh Thienthong for having alleged that the station had been paid to organise demonstrations against the government and junta.

Jatuporn Promphan, an executive of the satellite station, said he would assign PTV lawyers to consider taking legal action against Snoh for over the allegations.

He said Snoh should have backed up his allegations with details and evidences.

"I would like to challenge Snoh to provide evidences to show who had financed the rallies," Jatuporn said.

"He is a senior person who is already 73 years old so he should have backed up his allegation with evidence."

Jatuporn said if Snoh did not stop attack PTV, the station would definitely take action against him.

Snoh Sunday stood firm in his allegation against the PTV.

He earlier threatened to disclose the person who bankrolled the rallies of PTV during his birthday celebration yesterday.

But Snoh said Sunday that he did not have to reveal the name because the government and the Council for National Security knew well who was behind the PTV's rallies.

He reiterated that those who took part in the rallies organised by PTV were paid to do so.

"They did not campaign with a true spirit for national interest but they did it for money," Snoh said.

He said most groups, which have launched protests against the government and CNS had been paid to do so.

He said the government and CNS should take action against the groups or else the protests could spiral out of control soon.

The Nation

[John K]

Does anyone care to remember who sued people on a weekly or daily basis because he did not like what they said. Well that make two Thaksin signatures tied to this.

Pumpuiman, do you still say Thaksin is history and not involved? He is very much a player.

[Siripon]

The junta or the public should be calling for monitoring of the election.

If the current PM did this he would be looked at favorably internationally....as well as the junta.

It could inspire confidence in investment, tourism, real estate, import/export etc.

If they are truly honest about their goals, and want the publics trust, this should be a top priority.

Everybody wins.

But we now have guns to our heads...threats of imprisonment...bullcrap accusations of insulting the monarchy if we speak against the junta, or present an idea like monitoring.

This is the problem.

These students and academics that are protesting are heroes....not Thaksin's puppets.

International monitoring...Do you remember who said,' The UN is not my father' (apart from George Bush concerning Iraq) and who refused to let a UN Human Rights commission investigate the 80 plus deaths at Tak Bai? And who said scornfully about the disappearance of the Muslim lawyer, Somchai, that he'd probably had an argument with his wife?

And who said democracy is not the goal?

The puppet's master!

Stop talking about Thaksin!

This is about the future of Thailand.

What the heck does Thaksin have to do with calling for monitoring now?

The answer is there, if your not blinded by the past.

John K....listen to or read news outside of Thailand....The U.S. has condemned the junta. Your "I only hear good things" story is ridiculous.

This coup has trashed Thailands reputation as a place to invest, do business, travel, retire, export, import, sell or buy real estate etc.

A fair monitored election called for ideally by the current PM, would possibly reverse all these negative aspects, and unite a nation.

What the heck is wrong with that?

I know.......but Thaksin, but Thaksin, but Thaksin, but Thaksin, but Thaksin,

but Thaksin, but Thaksin,but Thaksin, but Thaksin,but Thaksin, aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrgggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but Thaksin,

I get the feeling you know nothing about Thai politics.

[Siripon]

When you ask the farmers why, they respond by saying it is all thanks to the China FTA that Thaksin signed. As we sit and ruminate on the future of Thailand and basically all assume that Thaksin and TRT enjoy the complete unthinking support of the uneducated masses, these precise pople are deserting the PTV/TRT cause at a high rate. Even the village headmen seem to recognize that they can no longer hold the villagers into the TRT apparatus. It does make you wonder why the local reporters arent up looking into this but then again I guess they dont want to soil their designer clothes and mix with the unwashed illiterate.

Well, hammered, and that is exactly the reason why this coup was entirely unnecessary, even counter productive for the democratization of Thailand. You have outlined why TRT rule would have inevitably led to further empowerment of the upcountry population. These people are not as stupid as assumed by the anti Thaksin city folks, and would have, and did realize themselves which problems Thaksin has caused in the long run.

They may have tired of TRT, but they are not in favor of the military either (at least the ones i know).

But this empowerment is what the present coup leaders do not want, and the resulting uncomfortable questions to be asked by the poeple who they prefer not to raise their voices.

If the elections would have been allowed without military interference it would have been only a matter of time that the upcountry population would have tired of TRT populism, and there would have been a very large chance that TRT would have been beaten at the ballot box.

Now though, i fear that the Thai political scene will be dominated by old style factional infights, weak visionless coalition governments and constantly shifting powers in the military. And inevitably blood will be flowing. We have seen it, we will see it again.

And i am convinced that this time it will be far worse, if you calculate in the dooming ethnic/religious war in the south.

Time has run out. There is no way back anymore.

Hi Colpyat. What interests me most about the move away from TRT by farmers in the North is that nobody is reporting on it or maybe not interested in it. As it would seem to be tied to where we are now I find this nothing short of amazing especially when within minutes of arriving in a village it is obvious. Or maybe I am being niaive and the struggle between TRT and the others has and remains only a struggle between the powerful, and it suits all to just make stupid statements that the peasants up North support Thaksin and TRT. Maybe the fear of a peasant mob descending on Bangkok is soemthing all sides want to perpetuate.

I fail to understand why the emphasis on Thaksin. The big danger to the entrenched powers of the country is a politically aware electorate which will vote in its own best interests- as politically aware electorates do in all democracies. And the best interests of this electorate- being overwhelmingly poor- will inevitably challenge the priviledge of the wealthy elites - with or without Thaksin at the helm.

Charismatic leaders are made- not born. They are made by circumstances- and in Thailand the circumstances are ripe. Imagine a firebrand like Morales or Chavez = and don't think that the educated elites haven't imagined such a scenario. All of this stuff about Thaksin is a smokescreen.

The elites can preach 'sufficiency economy' all they want- but sooner or later the poor will recognize that for what it is- an attempt by those with a vested interest in the exploitation of the poor- to make poverty palatable- and they won't accept that if alternatives are present. Sadly for that group - democracy will present those alternatives. It's just a matter of time.

The army with its ties to old money (not 'old' in the sense of ten years ago either) is well aware of that fact- democracy is a bigger threat to the real elites of this country than even the troubles in the South. And Thaksin has NOTHING to do with that fact.

So all this talk about the danger of Thaksin or even TRT or even TRT individuals, past or present, participating in the next elections is a bogeyman. The real danger and one that the Generals certainly recognize- is participation by the poor.

To be honest I still feel we are a long way from a politically aware electorate. I would honestly think that a lot of the poor will be even more disillusioned with what will basically be the same bunch of politicians under different party banners. No doubt many will also still listen to the advice of the village headman on what party or person seems best. Personally feel for the educated politcally aware top emerge in large numbers will take a fair bit of time yet, but we will see.

Now a Chavez would be interesting ( and Thaksin was certainly no Chavez) but as in Venezuela the only way a Chavez could avoid assassination and build a support base to nullify the old and business elites would be if he came from within the military. At this moment in time no Thai Chavez seems to be on the horizon. An interesting litle departure though to speculate on.

I have to disagree Hammered. I think that the electorate has learned the essentials of democracy: the prinicple of majority rule, and an understanding that political parties can in fact improve the lives of the poor- not saying they DID- but that they CAN. They also understand- and so does every polititian in the land, that no party can expect to serve a second term that doesn't honor its pledges to the majority.

The voters need not have read Locke and Jefferson. They don't have to know the demarcation of jurisdiction exercised by the constitutional court (I'm from Canada I doubt most voters even know if we have a constitution- though they all know about the Charter of Rights). All they have to know is enough to say, "What do I get in exchange for my vote?". It's the same question that every voter in every democracy asks. .

It won't be utopia- utopias are the business of fascists and communists and theocrats- it might not even be good government- but it will be democracy.

Yes, Thaksin exploited that phrase to the limit-'what do I get with my vote?'

He said openly and brazenly that those constituencies who voted for TRT would get preferential treatment regarding the budget, the rest would have to wait.

Vote for me or else!

The essentials of democracy also include accountability by the way, something Thaksin in his arrogance did not take into account.

[blaze]

When you ask the farmers why, they respond by saying it is all thanks to the China FTA that Thaksin signed. As we sit and ruminate on the future of Thailand and basically all assume that Thaksin and TRT enjoy the complete unthinking support of the uneducated masses, these precise pople are deserting the PTV/TRT cause at a high rate. Even the village headmen seem to recognize that they can no longer hold the villagers into the TRT apparatus. It does make you wonder why the local reporters arent up looking into this but then again I guess they dont want to soil their designer clothes and mix with the unwashed illiterate.

Well, hammered, and that is exactly the reason why this coup was entirely unnecessary, even counter productive for the democratization of Thailand. You have outlined why TRT rule would have inevitably led to further empowerment of the upcountry population. These people are not as stupid as assumed by the anti Thaksin city folks, and would have, and did realize themselves which problems Thaksin has caused in the long run.

They may have tired of TRT, but they are not in favor of the military either (at least the ones i know).

But this empowerment is what the present coup leaders do not want, and the resulting uncomfortable questions to be asked by the poeple who they prefer not to raise their voices.

If the elections would have been allowed without military interference it would have been only a matter of time that the upcountry population would have tired of TRT populism, and there would have been a very large chance that TRT would have been beaten at the ballot box.

Now though, i fear that the Thai political scene will be dominated by old style factional infights, weak visionless coalition governments and constantly shifting powers in the military. And inevitably blood will be flowing. We have seen it, we will see it again.

And i am convinced that this time it will be far worse, if you calculate in the dooming ethnic/religious war in the south.

Time has run out. There is no way back anymore.

Hi Colpyat. What interests me most about the move away from TRT by farmers in the North is that nobody is reporting on it or maybe not interested in it. As it would seem to be tied to where we are now I find this nothing short of amazing especially when within minutes of arriving in a village it is obvious. Or maybe I am being niaive and the struggle between TRT and the others has and remains only a struggle between the powerful, and it suits all to just make stupid statements that the peasants up North support Thaksin and TRT. Maybe the fear of a peasant mob descending on Bangkok is soemthing all sides want to perpetuate.

I fail to understand why the emphasis on Thaksin. The big danger to the entrenched powers of the country is a politically aware electorate which will vote in its own best interests- as politically aware electorates do in all democracies. And the best interests of this electorate- being overwhelmingly poor- will inevitably challenge the priviledge of the wealthy elites - with or without Thaksin at the helm.

Charismatic leaders are made- not born. They are made by circumstances- and in Thailand the circumstances are ripe. Imagine a firebrand like Morales or Chavez = and don't think that the educated elites haven't imagined such a scenario. All of this stuff about Thaksin is a smokescreen.

The elites can preach 'sufficiency economy' all they want- but sooner or later the poor will recognize that for what it is- an attempt by those with a vested interest in the exploitation of the poor- to make poverty palatable- and they won't accept that if alternatives are present. Sadly for that group - democracy will present those alternatives. It's just a matter of time.

The army with its ties to old money (not 'old' in the sense of ten years ago either) is well aware of that fact- democracy is a bigger threat to the real elites of this country than even the troubles in the South. And Thaksin has NOTHING to do with that fact.

So all this talk about the danger of Thaksin or even TRT or even TRT individuals, past or present, participating in the next elections is a bogeyman. The real danger and one that the Generals certainly recognize- is participation by the poor.

To be honest I still feel we are a long way from a politically aware electorate. I would honestly think that a lot of the poor will be even more disillusioned with what will basically be the same bunch of politicians under different party banners. No doubt many will also still listen to the advice of the village headman on what party or person seems best. Personally feel for the educated politcally aware top emerge in large numbers will take a fair bit of time yet, but we will see.

Now a Chavez would be interesting ( and Thaksin was certainly no Chavez) but as in Venezuela the only way a Chavez could avoid assassination and build a support base to nullify the old and business elites would be if he came from within the military. At this moment in time no Thai Chavez seems to be on the horizon. An interesting litle departure though to speculate on.

I have to disagree Hammered. I think that the electorate has learned the essentials of democracy: the prinicple of majority rule, and an understanding that political parties can in fact improve the lives of the poor- not saying they DID- but that they CAN. They also understand- and so does every polititian in the land, that no party can expect to serve a second term that doesn't honor its pledges to the majority.

The voters need not have read Locke and Jefferson. They don't have to know the demarcation of jurisdiction exercised by the constitutional court (I'm from Canada I doubt most voters even know if we have a constitution- though they all know about the Charter of Rights). All they have to know is enough to say, "What do I get in exchange for my vote?". It's the same question that every voter in every democracy asks. .

It won't be utopia- utopias are the business of fascists and communists and theocrats- it might not even be good government- but it will be democracy.

Yes, Thaksin exploited that phrase to the limit-'what do I get with my vote?'

He said openly and brazenly that those constituencies who voted for TRT would get preferential treatment regarding the budget, the rest would have to wait.

Vote for me or else!

The essentials of democracy also include accountability by the way, something Thaksin in his arrogance did not take into account.

And as Pumpuiman rightly said, again... 'but Thaksin did...'

Every politician in every democracy in the world exploits the phrase "what do I get with my vote'. That's how democracies operate. It has been referred to as 'enlightened self interest' (though rarely is it all that enlightened).

Are you suggesting that the money class in this country would willingly accept a democratically elected government that demanded a more equitable shake for the poor providing the government is accountable? And as long as favoritism to regions does not exist- that as long as checks and balances are fully functional, they will willingly pay more (let alone their share of) taxes to fund social programs, happily engage in meaningful land reform (meaningful to the majority, that is), gladly pay higher wages. Willingly support the costs of environmental controls? Enforce the law so that it applies to rich and poor alike? Entrust the economic, social and political future of the nation to the great unwashed? I wonder...

Edited April 1, 2007 by blaze

[John K]

I have to agree with Siripon, you are thinking western politics and applying western rules that look good on paper but become porous when applied in Thai politics.

Thaksin knows he is going down if he does nothing. His wife and children have already taken a hit because of him. Setting his children up to take a fall with Shin reeks of human shields.

Thaksin is self serving and he will step on or use anyone including members of his family. This is one of those times. One comes to mind is the petition against the Junta that may or may not be insulting to the King. 2000 people signed that, guess who takes the fall and who does not if it is deemed to be insulting. Care to take a guess at the educational attainment of the people or should I say sheep who signed it.

Edited April 1, 2007 by John K

[blaze]

I have to agree with Siripon, you are thinking western politics and applying western rules that look good on paper but become porous when applied in Thai politics.

And just which 'rules' are you referring to? The 'rule' that in a democracy, the majority carry the day (within boundaries of law)?

What kind of democracy would you envision which doesn't include that rule? And by what definition would you call it 'democracy'?

Edited April 1, 2007 by blaze

[John K]

I have to agree with Siripon, you are thinking western politics and applying western rules that look good on paper but become porous when applied in Thai politics.

And just which 'rules' are you referring to? The 'rule' that in a democracy, the majority carry the day (within boundaries of law)?

What kind of democracy would you envision which doesn't include that rule? And by what definition would you call it 'democracy'?

Oh that would be the rules that are overlooked when enough money changes hands. Unlike the west corruption is a much bigger piece of the pie in Thailand and has become integrated into the economy. It is just now been moved to the front burner so it will be watched with greater scrutiny. It will take a while to fix, so don’t expect it this year.

[John K]

PTV RALLIES

Suriyasai insists Thaksin involved

Democracy alliance threatens to resume protests if anti-govt activity continues

The government should review the bail of Khunying Pojaman Shinawatra and former Thai Rak Thai Party members if they continue to financially back PTV anti-government campaigns, a political activist said yesterday.

Campaign for Popular Democracy secretary-general Suriyasai Katasila alleged rising anti-government campaigns by PTV and the Thai Rak Thai Party were undeniably a strategy designed by deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to topple the Surayud Chulanont government.

Public prosecutors on March 26 charged Pojaman, her brother Bhanapot Damapong and her personal secretary, Kanjanapa Honghern with conspiring to evade tax. The three were bailed for Bt5 million each.

Suriyasai said anti-government campaigners were open about wanting Thaksin back in power.

He said they were challenging court authority because Thaksin family members were under investigation for corruption and other offences.

"If the Thai Rak Thai Party continues its support of PTV, public prosecutors must review the bail granted to Pojaman to stop its anti-government campaigns,'' he said.

He added if protests continued it was likely the People's Alliance for Democracy would resume its political movement to counter Thaksin groups.

"We will come back not to create confrontation but to make sure the government brings corrupt people in the Thaksin administration to justice,'' Suriyasai said.

PTV yesterday threatened to sue Pracharaj Party leader Snoh Thienthong for alleging it had been paid to organise demonstrations against the government and the junta.

Jatuporn Promphan, an executive of the planned satellite television station, said he would ask its lawyers to consider suing Snoh for defamation.

"I challenge Snoh to provide evidence showing who financed the rallies," Jatuporn said. "He is 73 years old so he should [know he needs to] back up allegations with evidence."

If Snoh does not stop attacking PTV, the station will definitely sue him, Jatuporn said.

Snoh, however, repeated the allegation at his birthday party yesterday, though he backed down on his threat to name the person who allegedly bankrolled PTV's rallies.

Snoh said he did not have to identify the person because the government and the Council for National Security (CNS) knew who was behind PTV's rallies.

[blaze]

I have to agree with Siripon, you are thinking western politics and applying western rules that look good on paper but become porous when applied in Thai politics.

And just which 'rules' are you referring to? The 'rule' that in a democracy, the majority carry the day (within boundaries of law)?

What kind of democracy would you envision which doesn't include that rule? And by what definition would you call it 'democracy'?

Oh that would be the rules that are overlooked when enough money changes hands. Unlike the west corruption is a much bigger piece of the pie in Thailand and has become integrated into the economy. It is just now been moved to the front burner so it will be watched with greater scrutiny. It will take a while to fix, so don’t expect it this year.

Don't expect WHAT this year? The post you responded to was an attempt to show that the real danger to the status quo is not Thaksin- it is democracy. And the cleaner it is, the more of a threat it will eventually (operative word: eventually) become. Unless you are suggesting that because corruption is rife in Thai elections, the principle of majority rule should be abandoned, I don't understand the point of your post.

[drummer]

After readnig up a bit on the actual circumstances of the rally, I find myself supporting the Junta.

Reasons?

As someone said earlier, if the pre-Thaksin crowd with money don't like the new regime, the new guys are DOING SOMETHING RIGHT. The new boss is clearly not the same as the old boss, if the machinery behind the old boss is wiling to take such risks, and spend the cash.

Reading up about the protest tactics.

Democracy? Thats a right loose word when 100 THB buys a vote. Thats 2 EUROS ... and thats in Nakhon Si Thammarat, where folks have more THB and more options, not in Issan.

Do the 'country bumpkins' know the ins and outs of BKK poiltics? I will be the last one to say that "country bumpkins" are stupid, but a lot of them are ignorant. And poor. And just how do they get their information? Most of them don't really know whats going on. Like the articles said, they don't really know much about the censorship issues past the bumper sticker. PTV was billions in debt. Why let them stay open? The only reason they allowed to flaunt the law before was Thaksin's corruption. Rational thought lands you in agreement with the Junta.

The protest organizers hired a private security force to tangle with the police. Thats well thought out, well plnned, and more than a little likely to incite violence.

The Junta have great reputations that have been well earned by all but pro-Thaksin accounts.

Lastly, the American Founding Fathers fully believed that military action was required to protect democracy ... they were sharp guys with lots of foresight. They knew full well about characters like Thaksin (and Bush) who corrupt a democracy from within. Thaksin was indeed taking out the checks+balances to his power. Democracy rests on checks and balances more than votes. Accountability is ONLY way to keep criminals away. You can always fool all of the people for some of the time, P.T. Barnum used to say.

When the Junta start getting corruption scandals more than "He built his house somewhere he shouldn't have", then I'll change my mind. In the meantime, they seem to be doing a decent job cleaning up some contracts (King Power) and actually getting things done. Bumper sticker arguments can say whatever you want them to. Every bumper sticker argument I've heard against the junta falls apart when I start actually reading whats going on. I might not like the methods, but I do like the results.

[jumnien]

Oh, how the right-wing coup apologists rattle on....

[ColPyat]

After readnig up a bit on the actual circumstances of the rally, I find myself supporting the Junta.

PTV was billions in debt. Why let them stay open? The only reason they allowed to flaunt the law before was Thaksin's corruption. Rational thought lands you in agreement with the Junta.

The Junta have great reputations that have been well earned by all but pro-Thaksin accounts.

I would advise you to do a bit more "reading up".

PTV never was billions in debt. ITV was billions in debt because of irrationally high fines awarded to them. The current PM had a spokes person apologizing for these fines and other tacticts, live on TV.

PTV and ITV are completely different things.

No, the Junta has not exactly great "reputations". During Black May '92 Gen. Surayudh, present PM, at that time commanded special warfare command, which troops were involved in the killing of demonstrators. Surayudh personally has led a troop of soldiers into the makeshift hospital at Rattanakosin Hotel and there his troops have beaten and rifle butted both injured and medical staff. Gen. Sonthi, now leader of the Junta, was under Surayud's command at that time.

And the scandal about Surayud's house is not such a small issue. This affair is touching one of the biggest problems of Thailand, where elites can flounder at will land right issues, while large sectors of the society are still landless. The land Surayud build his house is forest land, in which only local villagers have an ancestral right to live, but not outsiders. A normal person doing that is breaking several laws, and would have to stand trial for that.

[John K]

Colpyat , once again you are bringing in things from the past although interesting have little to do with this. People do change jobs you know.

Blaze the pro noun ‘it’ refers to corruption. It will be a bit like getting glue out of your hair.

As for the cleaner, well perhaps you are right it will some day become useless. So far things have been moving back to democracy, until that changes let it do it’s job. Per the title of this thread the Junta wants to bring emergency powers to Bangkok because it was recognized that Thaksin (the original reason for the coup) was behind the problem. The last few news clippings posted reflect that and it matches Thaksin’s opposites completely because he stated several time he would not get involved.

As a doctor would inject medicine directly into the infection if given the chance, the Junta wants to do exactly the same.

Edited April 2, 2007 by John K

[Plus]

The Junta have great reputations

1. Surayud is not junta per se.

2. Alleged involvement in May 1992 has done exactly nothing to his reputation as people either don't know about it or it didn't happen.

3. Surayud also said (live on TV) he'll resign if the house is found to be built illegaly. Some reports about his house were proven false fabrications.

>>>>>>>>

As farming plays very small part of Thailand's GDP (about 10%), Thaksin could have kept the farmers happy by subsidizing them from other sources. It's a relatively little investement with enourmous political pay-off. Keeping agricultural prices artificially high is not that expensive, buying votes is not that expensive.

The mother of all loans progam - the Villange Fund, cost only 70 bil. Shin Corp's profit from amending excise tax is 260 bil.

In the long run vote buying, fiddling with the government's budget (and large scale corruption that followed) would destroy the country but it would take rural voters decades to realise that extra 5 baht for a kilo of rice or another free loan program is slowly killing them.

Thaksin was in for a long haul.

>>>>>

Thailand elites do not see democracy as a threat, they see it as their survival. They, the elites, put a lot of provisions in 1997 Constitution to promote democracy and self-governance at local levels. Community rights laws, promoting grass-roots movemement and NGOs, allocating greater part of central budget to the provinces for their own administration, mandated public hearings for all big projects - it was all envisioned by the elites and subverted by Thaksin.

I'd give them another shot at restarting the process and hope they keep the leeches like Thaksin away from country's management.

>>>>>>

Thaksin WAS away from the picture and the public mind until he started sponsoring anti-coup movement. Now he is back again and has to be dealt with.

[jumnien]

As a doctor would inject medicine directly into the infection if given the chance, the Junta wants to do exactly the same.

Wow, I'd hate to accuse you of naivete. But, do you really believe in your heart that there was a perfectly healthy body that had this "infection" isolated somewhere that the BIB were not part of, and that they can somehow administer some medication to clear it up? I think your confusing the disease for the cure in this case.

[ColPyat]

Thaksin WAS away from the picture and the public mind until he started sponsoring anti-coup movement. Now he is back again and has to be dealt with.

Thaksin was never "away from the public mind" - anytime the junta could not accomplish something they have made sure to mention Thaksin as a diversion. And so far i have not seen proof for the allegations that Thaksin is funding the demonstrations. He might very well do so, but people like Veera are well able to do that themselves.

You can't just throw around allegations and only bring evidence based on hearsay. That though is exactly what the present government has done so since day one.

People do have a right to demonstrate, even if you may not agree with their opinions (and, regarding PTV - i personally do not agree at all with them. The only vocal opposition group i so far agree with to a large extend is the 19th sept. network).

Calling for "emergency rule" is discrediting every intention of the junta to reintroduce democracy as defined by its term, and not as mistaken now as "Thai style democracy".

[Plus]

Any public mention of Pojamarn sponsoring PTV will be faced with massive lawsuits, don't expect it hit the press anytime soon. The station is staffed with TRT people and in public opinion P stands for Pojamarn. No one gives them the benefit of doubt.

Snoh didn't mention the name because those who need to know, know already. Maybe he was bluffing, maybe not.

PTV's funding has been investigated from day 1.

Someone here mentioned photographs of Veera meeting with Thaksin in China.

[John K]

As a doctor would inject medicine directly into the infection if given the chance, the Junta wants to do exactly the same.

Wow, I'd hate to accuse you of naivete. But, do you really believe in your heart that there was a perfectly healthy body that had this "infection" isolated somewhere that the BIB were not part of, and that they can somehow administer some medication to clear it up? I think your confusing the disease for the cure in this case.

You mean Thaksin was not the original infection and the recent happening in Bangkok is not a recurrence of Thaksin? Let the news run for a few more days and lets revisit this post.

[John K]

Any public mention of Pojamarn sponsoring PTV will be faced with massive lawsuits, don't expect it hit the press anytime soon. The station is staffed with TRT people and in public opinion P stands for Pojamarn. No one gives them the benefit of doubt.

Snoh didn't mention the name because those who need to know, know already. Maybe he was bluffing, maybe not.

PTV's funding has been investigated from day 1.

Someone here mentioned photographs of Veera meeting with Thaksin in China.

It does not take much to connect the dots here. Thaksin is a bit of a creature of habit, he is not really in a good position to reinvent the wheel from being outside of Thailand. So far 2 and possibly 3 things have been Thaksin’s signature in this.

Pojamarn is a logical conclusion for funding. She could easily walk cash over to them and pay them thus breaking any paper trail. She recently was given the OK on taking 400 million baht out of the country to purchase a house in the UK. To see if house was purchased or not would lend to either pro or con theories.

Desperation caused by the fear of jail would certainly encourage her to get involved with all of this.

[sriracha john]

After readnig up a bit on the actual circumstances of the rally, I find myself supporting the Junta.

PTV was billions in debt. Why let them stay open? The only reason they allowed to flaunt the law before was Thaksin's corruption. Rational thought lands you in agreement with the Junta.

The Junta have great reputations that have been well earned by all but pro-Thaksin accounts.

I would advise you to do a bit more "reading up".

PTV never was billions in debt. ITV was billions in debt because of irrationally high fines awarded to them. The current PM had a spokes person apologizing for these fines and other tacticts, live on TV.

PTV and ITV are completely different things.

No, the Junta has not exactly great "reputations". During Black May '92 Gen. Surayudh, present PM, at that time commanded special warfare command, which troops were involved in the killing of demonstrators. Surayudh personally has led a troop of soldiers into the makeshift hospital at Rattanakosin Hotel and there his troops have beaten and rifle butted both injured and medical staff. Gen. Sonthi, now leader of the Junta, was under Surayud's command at that time.

And the scandal about Surayud's house is not such a small issue. This affair is touching one of the biggest problems of Thailand, where elites can flounder at will land right issues, while large sectors of the society are still landless. The land Surayud build his house is forest land, in which only local villagers have an ancestral right to live, but not outsiders. A normal person doing that is breaking several laws, and would have to stand trial for that.

Regarding your PTV/ITV points. Perhaps it's simply a typo/misspelling that was involved...? you know something about those, right?

Regarding the reputations of Privy Council members. I'd say that, nation-wide as a whole, they are probably the highest you will find amongst any group in Thailand... for what should be obvious reasons. The pro-Thaksin mob threatening petitions to remove Prem are also highly inappropriate.

Suryayud's house? Has there been some new news on that old story that you can link for us?

Edited April 2, 2007 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

Any public mention of Pojamarn sponsoring PTV will be faced with massive lawsuits, don't expect it hit the press anytime soon. The station is staffed with TRT people and in public opinion P stands for Pojamarn. No one gives them the benefit of doubt.

Snoh didn't mention the name because those who need to know, know already. Maybe he was bluffing, maybe not.

PTV's funding has been investigated from day 1.

Someone here mentioned photographs of Veera meeting with Thaksin in China.

"Public opinion" of the vocal minorities of all extreme factions seem to dominate the show here, and have replaced due process. This is a sign of collapse of the status quo.

[ColPyat]

Regarding the reputations of Privy Council members. I'd say that, nation-wide as a whole, they are probably the highest you will find amongst any group in Thailand... for what should be obvious reasons.

Then i would advise you to read up, for example, on the personal history of Tanin Kraivixien, another member of the Privy council. He was heading one of the most hated governments, under which some of the worst atrocities in modern Thai history happened.

[ColPyat]

You mean Thaksin was not the original infection and the recent happening in Bangkok is not a recurrence of Thaksin? Let the news run for a few more days and lets revisit this post.

You are in dire need of reading up on Thai history. Long before Thaksin entered the political scene in Thailand there were serious "infections". Thaksin is nothing but a consequence of decades of mismanagement, as the present government is nothing but another consequence.

They are not the solution either, just a continuation of mismanaging the country for the benefit of a few.

[sriracha john]

Regarding the reputations of Privy Council members. I'd say that, nation-wide as a whole, they are probably the highest you will find amongst any group in Thailand... for what should be obvious reasons.

Then i would advise you to read up, for example, on the personal history of Tanin Kraivixien, another member of the Privy council. He was heading one of the most hated governments, under which some of the worst atrocities in modern Thai history happened.

Perhaps you could spearhead the movement to remove him from the group that is the "most respected position that a Thai commoner could have."

[Jai Dee]

Enough bickering thanks.

Back on topic please.