อยู่เป็น v. อยู่ไม่เป็น

[kokesaat]

There's an interesting piece in the BP recently: "Time to swim against the 'yoo pen' cultural tide"  It talks about those who go with the flow, อยู่เป็น, and those who go against the flow, อยู่ไม้เป็น.  

Because of the politics currently involved with the phrase, as pertains to the Future Forward Party, I'd like to know if saying someone (not involved in politics) is or should be "อยู่ไม่เป็น" is viewed as a negative, rather than, in my mind, a positive.

As an example, when my wife and I moved here 23 years ago, I often told friends who questioned our move that we were the 1% who took a left at the Y in the road when everyone else was going right.

I'd like to use this phrase with a student whose family are friends with us, but don't want to use it if it will be viewed negatively.  

Any advice from the language experts?

[tgeezer]

I think that people are discouraged by the term experts, the experts have had their chance! 
In the context you mention อยู่ไม่เป็น is a comment on the present government made by a political party. If you came to Thailand because you could not tolerate the governance of your country then describe yourself as อยู่ไม่เป็น at that time.  
The important thing is to not give the impression that you agree with the ถรรคอนาคตใหม่ if you don’t. 
 

[kokesaat]

Thanks for replying.  Apart from political use, I was wondering if Thais use the term to describe other situations.  I did a google search....but all the hits were ถรรคอนาคตใหม่ related.  

[tgeezer]

I think that it must be taken as political. I am not an intellectual but I am not sure that it means going against the flow in the same way as taking the road less travelled does. 

[rabas]

I think  อยู่เป็น and อยู่ไม้เป็น can be used non politically. เป็น of course means to be, exist, or able as in the ability exists. Someone who can't play a game may say เล่นไม้เป็น. When I threaten to move upcountry to our family home my wife will say that I อยู่ไม้เป็น, am not able to stay long term.

 

As for the Y in the road or the path less travelled, Thai has an equivalent according to a couple of family members. One is:

 

สวนทาง  or สวนทางกัน  r)suan tang or r)suan tang gan. Meaning to pass in the opposite direction or to cross paths in opposite directions.  Although spelled the same as สวน(garden) the verb สวน means to cross or pass in opposite direction. (also relates to enema in the same reversed direction sense, lol),

 

I'm told the way to say path less travelled would be สวนกระแส. Again the verb สวน with กระแส meaning  current, flow, or stream. Bucking the trend would be close.

 

I might try saying ผมชอบ สวนกระแส ในชีวิต. I like to go against the stream in life. Which I do.

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by rabas

[kokesaat]

29 minutes ago, rabas said:

I think  อยู่เป็น and อยู่ไม้เป็น can be used non politically. เป็น of course means to be, exist, or able as in the ability exists. Someone who can't play a game may say เล่นไม้เป็น. When I threaten to move upcountry to our family home my wife will say that I อยู่ไม้เป็น, am not able to stay long term.

 

As for the Y in the road or the path less travelled, Thai has an equivalent according to a couple of family members. One is:

 

สวนทาง  or สวนทางกัน  r)suan tang or r)suan tang gan. Meaning to pass in the opposite direction or to cross paths in opposite directions.  Although spelled the same as สวน(garden) the verb สวน means to cross or pass in opposite direction. (also relates to enema in the same reversed direction sense, lol),

 

I'm told the way to say path less travelled would be สวนกระแส. Again the verb สวน with กระแส meaning  current, flow, or stream. Bucking the trend would be close.

 

I might try saying ผมชอบ สวนกระแส ในชีวิต. I like to go against the stream in life. Which I do.

 

Thanks for the info.  A Thai friend told me today that อยู่ไม่เป็น is all wrapped up in politics.  Sometimes when I'm trying to find how Thais use certain words/phrases, I do a google search.  The google search for อยู่ไม่เป็น ้has surprisingly few hits.....and all the ones with that exact phrase are recent political links.

Thanks for the  ผมชอบ สวนกระแส ในชีวิต. I like to go against the stream in life.   Me too

[tgeezer]

I asked my caddy if she อยู่ไม่เป็น and she is. The words have meaning of course as rabas says but they are currently an idiom for wanting a change of governance. 
I am not sure of สวน rabas, as you say it refers to traffic going in opposite direction on the same road so . อาการที่เคลื่อนไปตรงข้ามในเส้นทางเดียวกัน  ทวน is the verb for ฝ่ากระแสนำ้หรือกระแสลม  ทวนนำ้ ทวนลม 

Would not going against the flow be making life difficult? 

[tgeezer]

I have just googled เมื่อถึงทางแยก which has produced plenty of results which I think would provide a Thai equivalent of ‘taking the path less travelled’ if anyone is interested. 

I am not sure that you mean the path less travelled, I assumed that.

Edited November 26, 2019 by tgeezer

[rabas]

10 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I asked my caddy if she อยู่ไม่เป็น and she is. The words have meaning of course as rabas says but they are currently an idiom for wanting a change of governance.

This morning I got a detailed explanation of อยู่เป็น and อยู่ไม่เป็น from another niece, one who is a lawyer. Both terms are rather new.

 

อยู่เป็น is recent but pre-dates politics. It means to go along with a group of friends or an activity although your heart is not in it. You accept but in the back of your mind you don't fully agree. It's a resignation to do or participate in something.

 

อยู่ไม่เป็น Although we live in Bangkok, neither niece nor my wife knew this was associated with the Future Forward Party, even though a couple of nieces considered voting for Thanathorn, so it may be more recent than the elections. She also said although อยู่เป็น is now an accepted Thai phrase, อยู่ไม่เป็น is not(aside from politics). It's only use would be an exaggerated form of ไม่ได้ and may not be clear although เล่นไม่เป็น  (cannot play) is OK but still emphatic.

[rabas]

12 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Would not going against the flow be making life difficult? 

It would! As many of us who came to Thailand know well.

 

12 hours ago, tgeezer said:

am not sure of สวน rabas, as you say it refers to traffic going in opposite direction on the same road so . อาการที่เคลื่อนไปตรงข้ามในเส้นทางเดียวกัน  ทวน is the verb for ฝ่ากระแสนำ้หรือกระแสลม  ทวนนำ้ ทวนลม 

It's interesting to see สวน and ทวน compared. I enjoy your researches because I too try to understand why Thai use words the way they do. I scratch my head when people say Thai is simple.

 

สวนทางกัน  was given to me on asking how to express taking a less common path in life. She explained in 2 stages, สวนทาง was travelling is crossing or opposing directions, but having a meeting point. She then said what I want is สวนกระแส  which google translates as reverse trend. กระแส gives the sense of flowing, a current. So I  take สวนกระแส to mean going in a direction different than the general trend.

 

ทวน has a stronger sense of opposing. so that may be like going against the grain, swimming upstream as you said.

 

3 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I have just googled เมื่อถึงทางแยก which has produced plenty of results which I think would provide a Thai equivalent of ‘taking the path less travelled’ if anyone is interested. 

 

เมื่อถึงทางแยก -  is how I asked the question of my niece:

 

เมื่อ คนเรา ถึงทางแยก ในชีวิต (I gave examples) และ ผมต้องการที่จะ ไปทางที่ต่างกัน จาก คนทั่วไป (คนส่วนใหญ่)   when we come to a fork in the path in life, and I want to go the way that is different from others (most people) ...

 

Looking forward to your short concise version!

Edited November 26, 2019 by rabas

[tgeezer]

I would need a Thai to formulate something concise, I might bring it up at the park this evening.  However I must defer to native speakers.  After consulting a driving handbook where I found one way traffic with an opposing bus lane to be ช่องเดินรถประจำทางสวนกระแสการจราจรปกติ. 

Metaphors can be carried too far and this one breaks down in that the bus is going where the other vehicles have been,  also the situation is not the result of taking a different road at the crossing. 

 

I am surprised that your people have not heard of อยู่ไม่เป้น I found only references to twitter and พรรคอนาคตใหม่ ,   get them to google it. 

I have just discovered my error;  My first comment on this topic has พรรค where I misspelt it with ภ which I mistyped ถ andwhich I have just discovered. 

 

 

 

 

ู

[GarryP]

On 11/24/2019 at 6:56 PM, kokesaat said:

Thanks for replying.  Apart from political use, I was wondering if Thais use the term to describe other situations.  I did a google search....but all the hits were ถรรคอนาคตใหม่ related.  

It has been used in a non-political context for as long as I can remember. Often used colloquially.  

[rabas]

15 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

I am surprised that your people have not heard of อยู่ไม่เป้น I found only references to twitter and พรรคอนาคตใหม่ ,   get them to google it. 

My guess is อยู่ไม่เป้น became politically popular only after the election. By that time they had stopped paying attention to politics.

 

You can find a few earlier references by setting google to search only before the election. Longdo Dick shows อยู่ไม่เป็นที่ which means can't stay in one place or must move around.  

 

[kokesaat]

Thanks again for all the help sorting this out.

 

[digbeth]

อยู่เป็น before all this political adoption usually refers to the 'suck up' guys, like in an office context, 

เขาคนนี้ อยู่เป็น would means someone that knows who to suck up or please, or knows when to shut up and not stir the pot. you can see how the political adoption of อยู่ไม่เป็น would means

 

maybe you can also refer to your pet that comes at your beck and call that it อยู่เป็น too

[tgeezer]

Coincidentally, อยู่เป็น was said of me by a friend just after he had said ปากหวาน.    I had just tried a pair of running socks given to me by another friend and I commented to the giver that they were very good. 

That is the first time I have been aware of its use ‘in action’.  I would say that it fits the pet situation in digbeth’s post. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by tgeezer

[cmarshall]

อยู่เป็น has a meaning distinct from whatever meaning it might have in a political sense.  Someone who อยู่เป็น knows what to do in the sense of fulfilling his role in the given context.  So it could be translated as how to pursue one's goal within the appropriate social confines.  

 

By contrast, someone who รู้งาน is someone who knows what to do in the sense of knowing what to do to pursue his goal or to solve a problem with respect to skills or knowledge, not social roles.

 

I believe that this meaning of อยู่เป็น in not new.