ฮยู่ ๆ อยู่ดี ๆ

[tgeezer]

Here is something which may be of interest.  

อยู่ อยู่ and อยู่ดีดี  ว. อาการที่พูดหรือแสดงหรือได้รับสื่งใดสิ่งหนึ่งโดยไม่มัสะเหตุ เช่น อยู่ ๆ เขาก็มาด่าฉัน อยู่ดี ๆ เธอก็เป็นลมฟุปไป อยู่ดี ๆ ก็มีคนนำเงินมาให้ 

 Because the example is so weird I had a look at Longdo where it gives unexpectedly or without warning etc.

These then are special words which go before the happening.   

 

เขาทำงานอยู่ดี ๆ ก็โดนไม้ตกใส่หัว He was working, suddenly a piece of wood cracked his skull.   He was working normally,  a piece of wood cracked his skull.  

Repeating อยู่ดี ๆ doesn’t change the meaning of the words and a piece of wood is the opposite of อยูดี which is why longdo and most people would want to apply อยู่ด ๆ where they can make sense of it.   

 

Returning to the definition from the RID. Does it say; A happening of speech or display or getting something, for which there is no cause? 

 So when seeing อยู ๆ or อยู่ดี ๆ there is no reason for the happening which follows it. 

 

อยู่ ๆ เขามาด่าฉัน For no reason he abused me. 

อยู่ดี ๆ เธอลมฟุปไป  For no reason you crawl*  

อยู่ดี ๆ มีคนนำเงืนมาให้ For no reason someone brings you money.  

 

 ลมฟุปไป - ฟุบ is a word you want and when referring to money it appears to mean deflation. Edit. It means fainted or collapsed. 

 

To conform to the RID the longdo example should be อยูดี ๆ เขาก็โดนไม้ตกใส่หัว otherwise longdo is saying something about work.  

Is that the same? 

I think that I get it now so is it “over” or “over and out”? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* ลมฟุปไป - ฟุบ is a word you want and when referring to money it means deflation I think

 

 

[rabas]

On 11/27/2019 at 10:05 AM, tgeezer said:

So when seeing อยู ๆ or อยู่ดี ๆ there is no reason for the happening which follows it. 

 

Another nice analysis. My own sense of doing something followed by อยู่ดี  is close the the English idiom of doing something while minding one's own business ... then something happens.

[tgeezer]

18 hours ago, rabas said:

 

Another nice analysis. My own sense of doing something followed by อยู่ดี  is close the the English idiom of doing something while minding one's own business ... then something happens.

Thanks a lot. Exactly my feelings but how do we come to that? The RID claims that อยู่ดี ๆ says something about what follows whereas it is simply the verb and the modifier ดี ๆ meaning ปรกดี, เฉย ๆ . 

 

At this point I opened the longdo tab in Safari and found myself on a page which I have never seen before!  There was a comments section and a willingness to accept translation contributions!

I have used the internet sparingly preferring books, but I see from the numerous examples on this page that I am probably “reinventing the Wheel” and understand why I don’t get much response to my “discoveries”. 

 

So on another tack, how do you feel about word for word translations?  Do you think it necessary to translate ทางซ้ายของเรือ as the port side of the vessel ?  vessel เรือ หลอดเลือด ภาชนะ only เรือ can have a port side so no confusion there except that the Thai says left side This is a very simple example but I think explains the problems that can occur.    

Then there is the syntax; Thai>English dictionaries are like a thesaurus with one word solutions which are from English syntax and teach us nothing about Thai.  

 

 

This is about all that Safari on an iPad can cope with so I will break here.                                                                                   

[rabas]

10 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Exactly my feelings but how do we come to that? The RID claims that อยู่ดี ๆ says something about what follows whereas it is simply the verb and the modifier ดี ๆ meaning ปรกดี, เฉย ๆ . 

This is the challenging part of Thai. Many words and phrases don't translate consistently . So how do you know the correct way to phrase something? Part is trial and error. I also use 2 old multi volume dictionaries by So Sethaputra, which give usage examples.

 

 

 

11 hours ago, tgeezer said:

So on another tack, how do you feel about word for word translations?  Do you think it necessary to translate ทางซ้ายของเรือ as the port side of the vessel ?  vessel เรือ หลอดเลือด ภาชนะ only เรือ can have a port side so no confusion there except that the Thai says left side This is a very simple example but I think explains the problems that can occur.    

I agree, many things can't be translated word for word, which gets into why the UN uses interpreters rather than translators.

 

When I first came here I remember a girl who was trying to talk to me about a life insurance policy. Not sure why. When I seemed puzzled she said "ฉัน   ไปเอามาให้ดู". I  go take bring give see.  Which made my head spin because she used 5 vowels in a row.

 

BTW just looked up  starboard = กราบขวาของเรือ

where กราบ = the sides of a ship

 

 

[tgeezer]

I doubt that many people know กราบ of a boat so this example is probably written by a sailor, it is to be hoped that when they look it up they find ‘gunwale’ not the side of the ship! กราบ is important because the word วูบ is used which means seen one second and gone the next. So you are looking at this board at the edge of the deck when it gets covered by the sea.  วูบ is a sudden event. 

Going up country so will add to this later. 

[tgeezer]

Assuming that someone took issue with my interpretation of วูบ on the grounds of consistency in that I am making a case for keeping things simple and at the same time making a fancy interpretation in translation.  

On 11/29/2019 at 10:51 PM, rabas said:

This is the challenging part of Thai. Many words and phrases don't translate consistently . So how do you know the correct way to phrase something? Part is trial and error. I also use 2 old multi volume dictionaries by So Sethaputra, which give usage examples.

 

 

 

I agree, many things can't be translated word for word, which gets into why the UN uses interpreters rather than translators.

 

When I first came here I remember a girl who was trying to talk to me about a life insurance policy. Not sure why. When I seemed puzzled she said "ฉัน   ไปเอามาให้ดู". I  go take bring give see.  Which made my head spin because she used 5 vowels in a row.

 

BTW just looked up  starboard = กราบขวาของเรือ

where กราบ = the sides of a ship

 

 

Translating your example Rabas, would you say that “ I will go and bring one *for you to see.” Is adequate?  

You know this already but there may be some here who haven’t seen it yet, when we want to say something in Thai we must cut out many of the superfluous words which we are used to using in English and in the other direction of course, we feel that we. need to add them.    Do you not think that if we could accept the word for word Thai, communicating with Thai people would be much easier?  

Take the word bring , for example,(sorry for the italics from now on) to bring one first needs to pick it up เอา then come in my direction มา . 

I am not sure that I can explain every apparent anomaly in Thai, why  เอา  means want is easy but there must be others which if someone could provide the questions we would find it satisfying to try to answer them. 

*  ‘for’ should not be in heavy type.

Quote

 

 

[Shompoo]

อยู่ๆ & อยู่ดีๆ are very close. 

 

ผู้หญิงอยู่ๆก็เป็นลม

ผู้หญิงอยู่ดีๆก็เป็นลม

 

ป้าอยู่ๆก็ถูกล็อตเตอรี่

ป้าอยู่ดีๆก็ถูกล็อตเตอรี่

 

แม่อยู่ๆก็ไปตลาด

แม่อยู่ดีๆก็ไปตลาด

 

All above sentences are about "suddenly happened without notice or unpredictable. I think อยู่ดีๆ is more stronger sense of "no cause" or "no people make it happen" And it might put the question "why" in speaker's mind.

[tgeezer]

11 hours ago, Shompoo said:

อยู่ๆ & อยู่ดีๆ are very close. 

 

ผู้หญิงอยู่ๆก็เป็นลม

ผู้หญิงอยู่ดีๆก็เป็นลม

 

ป้าอยู่ๆก็ถูกล็อตเตอรี่

ป้าอยู่ดีๆก็ถูกล็อตเตอรี่

 

แม่อยู่ๆก็ไปตลาด

แม่อยู่ดีๆก็ไปตลาด

 

All above sentences are about "suddenly happened without notice or unpredictable. I think อยู่ดีๆ is more stronger sense of "no cause" or "no people make it happen" And it might put the question "why" in speaker's mind.

I agree with you. โดยไม่มีสะเหตุ 

I take สะเห็ตุ to mean apparent cause, so do you accept ถูกล๊อตเดอรี่ as ไม่มีสะเหตุ
Also when placed after the subject it looks like a modifier แม่อยู่ดี ๆ , whereas if treated as a ‘special word’ saying ‘for no reason’ it is easier to understand. ie. อยู่ดี ๆ แม่ก็ไปตลาต 
 

 

[tgeezer]

I suppose that I put people on the spot. Maybe it needs an appreciation of what ก็ does. 

[DavidHouston]

On 12/7/2019 at 10:28 PM, Shompoo said:

อยู่ๆ & อยู่ดีๆ are very close. 

 

ผู้หญิงอยู่ๆก็เป็นลม

ผู้หญิงอยู่ดีๆก็เป็นลม

 

ป้าอยู่ๆก็ถูกล็อตเตอรี่

ป้าอยู่ดีๆก็ถูกล็อตเตอรี่

 

แม่อยู่ๆก็ไปตลาด

แม่อยู่ดีๆก็ไปตลาด

 

All above sentences are about "suddenly happened without notice or unpredictable. I think อยู่ดีๆ is more stronger sense of "no cause" or "no people make it happen" And it might put the question "why" in speaker's mind.

มีความหมายคล้ายๆ กับคำว่า "จู่ ๆ" หรือเปล่าครับ?

[cmarshall]

My native informant agrees that:

อยู่ๆ means suddenly with the connotation of unexpected, unforeseen

อยู่ดีๆ means suddenly with the connotation of lacking agency and therefore unforeseeable.

[tgeezer]

 I think that for conversational purposes the precise meanings are not important, think of it as sudden, surprising, unforeseeable, these are just impressions. 
David has brought up what appears to be an equivalent word จู่ ๆ which is defined as a คำกริยา whereas อยูดี ๆ is a คำวิเศษณ์ . I don’t know and can only guess. I have asked native speakers and they can only explain by saying suddenly for both which is good enough but doesn’t solve the RID puzzle which is an academic problem. 
The next post will interest nobody but I make it in-spite of that. 

[tgeezer]

Why อยู่ดี ๆ is not the same as จู่ ๆ in the eyes of the RID.  

อยู่ดี ๆ is used to show that what was said, what happened or what one received was all without apparent cause. For example: He scolded me, she fainted, he gave me money. That said it is more surprising than sudden but it seems that suddenly has become the ‘stock’ word. 

It is a คำวิเศษณ์ because there is no subject.  

 

จู่ ๆ is a คำกริยาม the subject is a person and it says that they were unaware beforehand of what occurred because it happened in an instant.  The example is จู่ ๆ ฝนก็ดกลงมา the subject is unspoken. 
 

Does anyone have an opinion on what the ‘stock’ word should be for both? I think that the answer will be NO. 

Do people agree that to apply ether word to winning the lottery is nonsense according to the RID.  

This may seem like a pointless exercise when all we want to do is mimic what Thai speakers do and say but I find it helps me in wrenching Thai language free from the grip that English has on it so indulge me.  If anyone has any opinion on the Thai please feel free to give it. 

 

[digbeth]

18 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Why อยู่ดี ๆ is not the same as จู่ ๆ in the eyes of the RID.  

อยู่ดี ๆ is used to show that what was said, what happened or what one received was all without apparent cause. For example: He scolded me, she fainted, he gave me money. That said it is more surprising than sudden but it seems that suddenly has become the ‘stock’ word. 

It is a คำวิเศษณ์ because there is no subject.  

 

จู่ ๆ is a คำกริยาม the subject is a person and it says that they were unaware beforehand of what occurred because it happened in an instant.  The example is จู่ ๆ ฝนก็ดกลงมา the subject is unspoken. 
 

Does anyone have an opinion on what the ‘stock’ word should be for both? I think that the answer will be NO. 

Do people agree that to apply ether word to winning the lottery is nonsense according to the RID.  

This may seem like a pointless exercise when all we want to do is mimic what Thai speakers do and say but I find it helps me in wrenching Thai language free from the grip that English has on it so indulge me.  If anyone has any opinion on the Thai please feel free to give it. 

 

จู่ๆ is suddenly while อยู่ดีๆ is 'while doing something not out of the ordinary'

 

you can replace both words with each other in most context and it would almost make sense, except

you probably won't say

อยู่ดีๆถูกหวย suddenly I won the lottery, you would have gone out of your way to buy a ticket so อยู่ดีๆseems to imply no actions form the speaker that caused the motion/event

 

อยู่ดีๆมีคนเอาของมาให้ somebody brought gift is the more correct context to use อยู่ดีๆ

 

 

[tgeezer]

*(วันฉลองวันเกิดผมวันนั้น) 

เรานั่งทาน/กินอาหารกันสองคนตามปรกติ

อยู่ดี ๆ เพื่อน ๆ ก็เข้ามาแล้วร้องเพล่ง แฮปปีเบอร์ทเดย์พร้อมกัน 

 พวกเราไปทานอาหารกันที่ร้านอาหาน ตามปรกติ จู่ ๆ เพื่อน ๆ ก็ร้องเพล่ง แฮปปีเบิร์ทเดย์ พร้อมกัน 

*Because of what happened I am not sure that this needs to be said. 

In the first case what happened was unlikely but in the second it was reasonable to expect something. Unlikely? Does that depend on what sort of friendships one has?