Tesla boss Elon Musk wins defamation trial over 'pedo guy' tweet

[AsianAtHeart]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

I do disagree, just because a person makes one mistake , that doesnt mean that everything they say is a mistake .

Caver /Cave diver , part of the cave diving team , although not actually diving .

The slight misreporting  can be overlooked in this case .

One slight mistake is a little mistake and that doesnt render the whole report as being fake or incorrect

Perhaps the same error that leads you to see this as a "slight mistake" leads you to misinterpret what I have said.  I didn't say "the whole report" was incorrect, only that it could not be trusted to be so.  Usually, the most dangerous errors are those that come packaged with truth to make them the more palatable.

 

7 minutes ago, monkfish said:

Oh they know i've seen it a lot I guess it makes for a better story if he's a diver who risked his life to save 15 children rather than a guy who offered some advice and hung around the cave entrance.

It appears that British news these days has a penchant for upscaling the qualifications of their own citizens, even when it involves flat-out falsification.  Here's another report that came out in the Telegraph about the time of the event with the same "British diver" error.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/14/elon-musk-can-stick-submarine-hurts-says-british-diver-helped/

 

I have yet to hear any good reason for Unsworth's uncalled for attack on Elon in this manner.  I begin to wonder if the real reason was to provoke him to respond in kind with the intent of suing him for some extra cash over it.  Unsworth didn't save any more of the boys from the cave than did Musk, when all was said and done, and Musk has about as much right to be called a hero for his efforts in the rescue as Vern has.  Undoubtedly, Musk sacrificed more to the rescue in financial terms than did Unsworth.

 

 

[BigStar]

42 minutes ago, Myran said:

Ladies and gentlemen: the jury system.

Yep. Great protection against the tyranny of power and unreasonable laws. Works well most of the time. And did in this case. 

 

Quote

It would've been one thing if Musk had tossed out the insult once, but he didn't. He doubled down saying he bet a signed dollar it was true and then had his victim investigated in an attempt to find something that would back up his pedophile claims.

Those points work against you. Saying he "bet" (off the record, not on CNN) and even the private investigation are merely further evidence that he didn't actually know and had no real reason to believe Unsworth was really a pedo. Hence, it really was just an insult, not an attempt to assert fact. His little investigation was simply covering the bases. That violates no laws, either.

 

And Elon did offer a belated apology--but without groveling. Is Unsworth in a better position for not accepting? Unsworth offered no apology and conveniently claimed Elon was insincere (again). That is, he wanted to be paid off. We always decry Thai greed and materialism whenever they have this attitude. 
 

Quote

Absolutely unbelievable that he got away with it.

Quite believable that Unsworth didn't get away with the shakedown, yes. Unsworth had no evidence of any real damage he incurred as a result of having his false allegation and vulgar insult returned in force. Indeed, he enjoyed a better reputation than ever. Well, until this. ???? One member of the jury decried the place of emotion over evidence. Not evidence of insults exchanged but of any crime that rose to the legal standard of defamation.

 

Quote

I would expect this from a country as corrupt as Thailand, but the U.S. is apparently not any better.

I might not expect this in Thailand because the defamation law is so much different. The US has its own defamation law and the judge and jury correctly and fairly followed that law. In fact the court was more than fair, as the judge should've just dismissed the complaint when first presented. Jury ended up feeling it all a waste of time, which it was. Far more important cases, real cases, to consider . . . .

 

Now, someone might say that we would expect such a ridiculous shakedown attempt from a poor Thai but apparently a working class Brit isn't much better. Someone might, but I wouldn't, as I eschew bigotry and stereotypes.

[sanemax]

10 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Perhaps the same error that leads you to see this as a "slight mistake" leads you to misinterpret what I have said.  I didn't say "the whole report" was incorrect, only that it could not be trusted to be so.  Usually, the most dangerous errors are those that come packaged with truth to make them the more palatable

 

 

 

 

No, it was a simple mistake, it wasnt a "deliberate" mistake to alter anything .

He was a caver who was part of the cave diving team and some people erroneously stated that he is a cave diver .

  Really not important 

[sanemax]

14 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

I have yet to hear any good reason for Unsworth's uncalled for attack on Elon in this manner. 

Unsworth and hundreds of other people were working, risking their lives to save the children  without publicity and Musk was in the TV studios telling everyone about his boring machines and his  submarines publicising his companies  and how HE is saving those kids .

   That annoyed Unsworth 

[torturedsole]

13 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

Calm down.  I'll elaborate, your opinion isn't relevant to the not-guilty verdict.  Apologies if that wasn't clear but I did state that you weren't a juror.

4 minutes ago, sanemax said:

No, it was a simple mistake, it wasnt a "deliberate" mistake to alter anything .

He was a caver who was part of the cave diving team and some people erroneously stated that he is a cave diver .

  Really not important 

As an observation you appear to be taking all this rather personally, sanemax.  

 

If you missed it then I've also apologised for any misunderstanding, as above.  I totally agree that your opinion is relevant to TV but not to the verdict as you weren't a juror.  Again, please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding.     

[SkyFax]

20 minutes ago, sanemax said:

How could the Jury not find Musk guilty as his tweets seem to tick all the boxes

The decision had to do with defamation law as the judge had laid it out. There were five points: first, that the statements had to be made to a person other than Unsworth; second, that the statements had to be understood to be about Unsworth; third, that the statements had to be understood to mean Unsworth was a pedophile; fourth, that the statements were false; and fifth, that the statements were reckless. “As soon as we got to point two, which was about being acquainted [with Unsworth], we decided,” Carl Shusterman, one of the eight members of the jury, told Buzzfeed News. “The people that read Musk’s tweet wouldn’t have known who he was talking about.”

 

https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/6/20998821/elon-musk-wins-loses-twitter-defamation-trial-testimony-caver-vernon-unsworth-cave-rescue

[sanemax]

9 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

As an observation you appear to be taking all this rather personally, sanemax.  

 

If you missed it then I've also apologised for any misunderstanding, as above.  I totally agree that your opinion is relevant to TV but not to the verdict as you weren't a juror.  Again, please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding.     

We have moved on from the discussion about whether my point is relevant or not .

Now we are talking about whether one little error in a report  is relevant or not 

[torturedsole]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

We have moved on from the discussion about whether my point is relevant or not .

Now we are talking about whether one little error in a report  is relevant or not 

Don't accept my apology for the misunderstanding then.  Fine, but you appear rattled and wanted to placate your sensibilities.

[Just Weird]

50 minutes ago, canopy said:

 If you listen to the jurors you will find the defense lawyer made a key mistake. The defense strategy was to make a highly emotional argument on behalf of Vern. This might have actually worked and struck a chord with say a bunch of fat, uneducated moms on the jury. Not this jury. This jury was acutely aware the defense needed to meet five criteria to prove defamation and they were systematically checking them off

"If you listen to the jurors you will find the defense lawyer made a key mistake. The defense strategy was to make a highly emotional argument on behalf of Vern".

 

Huh?  The defence lawyer in this defamation case was Musk's lawyer.   Unsworth wasn't being sued.

[sanemax]

8 minutes ago, SkyFax said:

The decision had to do with defamation law as the judge had laid it out. There were five points: first, that the statements had to be made to a person other than Unsworth; second, that the statements had to be understood to be about Unsworth; third, that the statements had to be understood to mean Unsworth was a pedophile; fourth, that the statements were false; and fifth, that the statements were reckless. “As soon as we got to point two, which was about being acquainted [with Unsworth], we decided,” Carl Shusterman, one of the eight members of the jury, told Buzzfeed News. “The people that read Musk’s tweet wouldn’t have known who he was talking about.”

 

https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/6/20998821/elon-musk-wins-loses-twitter-defamation-trial-testimony-caver-vernon-unsworth-cave-rescue

1 The statements were made to millions of Musks tweet followers and similar statements of accusation were made to Buzzfeed and other people .

2 . The statements were clearly about Unsworth

3 . Musk lied when he claimed that they were not , even his follow up statement stating that Unsworth married a pre teen girl back that up .

4 . The statements were false, no evidence to back up the claims prove this 

5, The statements were wreckless

[sanemax]

11 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

Don't accept my apology for the misunderstanding then.  Fine, but you appear rattled and wanted to placate your sensibilities.

It really wasnt important and there was no need for you to apologise .

I didnt mind and I did accept your apology , I just didnt feel it needed to be written on here

[monkfish]

3 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

Don't accept my apology for the misunderstanding then.  Fine, but you appear rattled and wanted to placate your sensibilities.

Mmm Apology not accepted seems rather familiar.

[torturedsole]

Just now, sanemax said:

1 The statements were made to millions of Musks tweet followers and similar statements of accusation were made to Buzzfeed and other people .

2 . The statements were clearly about Unsworth

3 . Musk lied when he claimed that they were not , even his follow up statement stating that Unsworth married a pre teen girl back that up .

4 . The statements were false, no evidence to back up the claims prove this 

5, The statements were wreckless

We have to respect the jurors decision-making process.  Twelve good men and women trying their best.  

 

These same twelve good people had all the available articles and arguments presented and available to them.  We as observers didn't.  

[sanemax]

8 minutes ago, monkfish said:

Mmm Apology not accepted seems rather familiar.

No, Musk didnt apologise to Unsworth , Musk apologised to his board members for writing those tweets , which is quite different to apologising to Unsowrth and retracting the allegations , which musk didnt do

[IraqRon]

1 hour ago, sanemax said:

Although my opinion is quite relevant here on TVF , where we are discussing the case .

If all our opinions are irrelevant here on TVF, we all may as well stop talking to each other and all go home 

that is a good idea in many posts on here, oh my, that is horrible..

[monkfish]

18 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Unsworth and hundreds of other people were working, risking their lives to save the children  without publicity and Musk was in the TV studios telling everyone about his boring machines and his  submarines publicising his companies  and how HE is saving those kids .

   That annoyed Unsworth 

Yea accept for Unsworth he got loads of publicity after the CNN interview lol I guess he was jealous.
How did he risk his life exactly.
Do you have a clip where (Musk) he claims he claims He will save those kids or you just making it up?

Edited December 8, 2019 by monkfish

[SkyFax]

10 minutes ago, sanemax said:

1 The statements were made to millions of Musks tweet followers and similar statements of accusation were made to Buzzfeed and other people .

2 . The statements were clearly about Unsworth

3 . Musk lied when he claimed that they were not , even his follow up statement stating that Unsworth married a pre teen girl back that up .

4 . The statements were false, no evidence to back up the claims prove this 

5, The statements were wreckless

It was a unanimous jury decision.

[torturedsole]

2 minutes ago, monkfish said:

So where is the evidence that Musk claims only He will save the kids?

Good point.  IMO, Musk was only trying to help and definitely wasn't giving it the big billionaire attitude.  Vern was unnecessarily dismissive when he could have provided a constructive counterargument as to why Musk's mini-sub wouldn't have worked.  Instead he just told him to shove it up his butt.  How rude.  

[SkyFax]

15 minutes ago, sanemax said:

It would not have been unanimous if I was part of the Jury

You would have been excluded from serving on the jury:

 

Defendant Elon Musk respectfully submits the following voir dire questions for the Court’s consideration:

1. Do you hold a strong opinion, whether negative or positive, about Elon Musk? 2. Some of the evidence of this case will contain swear words or harsh language. Will the use of such words or language affect your ability to be fair and impartial?

3. Do you hold a strong opinion, whether negative or positive, about somebody who is a billionaire?

4. Do you have any personal ties to, or have you spent considerable time in, Thailand, the United Kingdom, or South Africa?

[canopy]

I don't think jurors are allowed to consider evidence they learn from outside the courtroom. That's why in some cases they are sequestered or a case gets a change of venues. Defamation looks cut and dry to many who followed this closely, but you have to understand outside the expat circle and in other countries many had no idea what it was about. Sounds as if Vern's lawyer didn't fully appreciate this and thus did not lay out the groundwork properly enough. When Elon saw Vern's famous CNN clip even he apparently didn't even know who Vern was (even by that time many expats did), didn't know he was part of the rescue, and thought he was just some random expat punking him.

 

I find Elon's lawyer Spiro's remarks odd but they do offer a glimpse of how the defense tried to counter the charges:

 

Spiro reiterated in his closing remarks that the tweets were insults. Federal courts aren’t for people who insult each other, Spiro said. He also repeatedly asked about the whereabouts of Unsworth’s companion, a woman named Tik, who could have spoken to Unsworth’s emotional distress. Spiro also pointed out that Unsworth’s name did not appear in the tweets. “Who ever heard of an accusation of a crime against some dude?” he said. He characterized the exchange between Musk and Unsworth as an argument. “In arguments,” Spiro said, “you insult people.”

 

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts, bickering posts and the replies have been removed. 

[sanemax]

43 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

Good point.  IMO, Musk was only trying to help and definitely wasn't giving it the big billionaire attitude.  Vern was unnecessarily dismissive when he could have provided a constructive counterargument as to why Musk's mini-sub wouldn't have worked.  Instead he just told him to shove it up his butt.  How rude.  

Although Musk was in the Television studios , telling the world about his drilling machines that he made for drilling on Mars and how he would use them to drill a hole to the boys and rescue them and about the submarines that his Tesla engineers have built especially for the boys , whilst there were hundreds of people risking their lives in the caves to save the kids and they werent talking to the media .

   That is what caused Vern to speak derogatory about Musk 

[torturedsole]

24 minutes ago, sanemax said:

   That is what caused Vern to speak derogatory about Musk 

We don't know the internal thought processes of Vern.  Vern made a statement and, rightly or wrongly, Musk reacted.  

 

The jury concluded that Musk's reactions didn't warrant defamation.  That's it in a nutshell.  Let's not overthink this.  

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by torturedsole

[KhunFred]

 That is a horrible accusation to make against anyone with no solid verification.

Edited December 8, 2019 by KhunFred
Clarity

[TheAppletons]

Suing someone for a "tweet", lol.  The least relevant form of "reporting" information ever invented.  

 

Maybe he can sue an "Instagram influencer" next because the resort she recommended wasn't to his liking.  

[sanemax]

8 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

Suing someone for a "tweet", lol.  The least relevant form of "reporting" information ever invented.  

 

Maybe he can sue an "Instagram influencer" next because the resort she recommended wasn't to his liking.  

The tweet contained a false  allegation of serious crimes  that could have put a persons life in danger and also caused other hardships though, 

[torturedsole]

9 minutes ago, KhunFred said:

That is a horrible accusation to make against anyone with no solid verification.

It's all in the wording.  I'll bet probably saved his butt not that Musk would care.  But I wasn't a party to the jurors deliberations.  Our personal objections and opinions have nothing to do with the jury's final decision.  I've sat on jury service in the UK and it's very interesting and the fairest way.  

[sanemax]

1 hour ago, canopy said:

I don't think jurors are allowed to consider evidence they learn from outside the courtroom. That's why in some cases they are sequestered or a case gets a change of venues. Defamation looks cut and dry to many who followed this closely, but you have to understand outside the expat circle and in other countries many had no idea what it was about. Sounds as if Vern's lawyer didn't fully appreciate this and thus did not lay out the groundwork properly enough. When Elon saw Vern's famous CNN clip even he apparently didn't even know who Vern was (even by that time many expats did), didn't know he was part of the rescue, and thought he was just some random expat punking him.

 

I find Elon's lawyer Spiro's remarks odd but they do offer a glimpse of how the defense tried to counter the charges:

 

Spiro reiterated in his closing remarks that the tweets were insults. Federal courts aren’t for people who insult each other, Spiro said. He also repeatedly asked about the whereabouts of Unsworth’s companion, a woman named Tik, who could have spoken to Unsworth’s emotional distress. Spiro also pointed out that Unsworth’s name did not appear in the tweets. “Who ever heard of an accusation of a crime against some dude?” he said. He characterized the exchange between Musk and Unsworth as an argument. “In arguments,” Spiro said, “you insult people.”

 

Well , at least its cleared Verns name and its now known that the accusations were just insults and not factual . 

   Although Musks allegations that all Western men who live in Thailand are pedophiles, is still on record and hasnt been contested 

[sirineou]

14 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Well , at least its cleared Verns name and its now known that the accusations were just insults and not factual . 

   Although Musks allegations that all Western men who live in Thailand are pedophiles, is still on record and hasnt been contested 

I will admit that before this case I had no idea who Vern was and I am sure most of the world did not either.

IMO the opposite. Not that I think Vern is a Pedo. but by making such a big deal out of this, most of the publicity associated with him is this alleged accusation, and most people know him because of that,

We here have an interest, because of our association with Thailand ,and our interest with all things Thai . but most of the world does not, I think there few thread worldwide  debating this case.

  So IMO when someone other than as asks, "do you know who Vernon Answorth is" for most people the answer would be "oh the Pedo guy"

Edited December 8, 2019 by sirineou

[sanemax]

12 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I will admit that before this case I had no idea who Vern was and I am sure most of the world did not either.

IMO the opposite. Not that I think Vern is a Pedo. but by making such a big deal out of this, most of the publicity associated with him is this alleged accusation, and most people know him because of that,

We here have an interest, because of our association with Thailand ,and our interest with all things Thai . but most of the world does not, I think there few thread worldwide  debating this case.

  So IMO when someone other than as asks, "do you know who Vernon Answorth is" for most people the answer would be "oh the Pedo guy"

That would have been the case had Vern not taken Musk to court and cleared his name of the allegations