Disrespected and insulted at the US embassy. Tourist visa denied to wife of US citizen for no specific reason.

[bronzedude]

I'm a retired US citizen in my 9th year of NonO retirement extensions. I had been with my wife as a domestic partner for 6 years before we officially married in June 2018, On November 21 after extensive preparation and payment of application fee, my wife appeared for her interview at the US embassy in Bangkok at 8:40am (the last interview time slot).

According to my wife, her interview lasted less than 5 minutes. She was asked 4 questions: Q1. Why do you want to visit the US? A1. Visit family and friends of my husband. Q2. How long do you intend to stay? A2. Eight weeks. Q3. Who is paying for your trip? A3. My husband Q4. Who will be going with you on this trip? A4. My husband. The interviewer looked through her passports which showed 9 international trip stamps to places like Singapore and Japan. He also looked through my passport which I supplied to show we travelled together and also had 9 years of retirement extensions. The interviewer did not look at the 30 plus page folder of supporting documents: Bank books, marriage certificate, letters of invitation from family and American friends who she met in Thailand, her eleven year old son's birth certificate (who was not applying for a visa), photos and much more.  After the four minute interview, the interviewer said, "I'm sorry, you cannot go to America." He handed her slip of paper that simply stated she was found ineligible under Section 214 (b). The interviewer didn't sign or date the denial slip of paper even though there were lines that indicated that date and signature were required.

 

According to: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/visa-information-resources/waivers.html#visa

Section 214(b) of the Immigration and Nationality Act 

(b) Every alien (other than a nonimmigrant described in subparagraph (L) or (V) of section 101(a)(15), and other than a nonimmigrant described in any provision of section 101(a)(15)(H)(i) except subclause (b1) of such section) shall be presumed to be an immigrant until he establishes to the satisfaction of the consular officer, at the time of application for a visa, and the immigration officers, at the time of application for admission, that he is entitled to a nonimmigrant status under section 101(a)(15). An alien who is an officer or employee of any foreign government or of any international organization entitled to enjoy privileges, exemptions, and immunities under the International Organizations Immunities Act, or an alien who is the attendant, servant, employee, or member of the immediate family of any such alien shall not be entitled to apply for or receive an immigrant visa, or to enter the United States as an immigrant unless he executes a written waiver in the same form and substance as is prescribed by section 247(b).

 

If you can make sense of this explanation please enlighten me. It looks like a general catch all statement that supplies no specific reason for denial and has more to do with persons wanting to immigrate rather than persons who want tourists' visas. I feel that the US State Dept, The US Embassy in Bangkok, and the interviewer disrespected and were rude to my  wife in this interview process. I personally feel insulted and disrespected. My next plans are to contact the US congressman and woman and the US Senators from my home state. I also plan to write letters to the editor of several US newspapers. I would like to know the specific reasons for the denial so we can correct any inaccuracies  or incomplete application information in order to re-apply  with a fighting chance to receive a "tourist" visa. I think it should be the obligation of any interviewer to have the courtesy of looking through all supporting documents.

Incidentally, the non-refundable fee is quoted as 160USD, but an applicant is force to pay Kungsri Bank the amount of 5280 baht. You do the math. Someone's making extra at the expense of the applicants.

[ThaiBunny]

2 minutes ago, bronzedude said:

It looks like a general catch all statement that supplies no specific reason for denial 

Yep, got it in one

[Nyezhov]

Actually it puts the burden of proof on the alien to show they are entitled to a visa. Your best bet is your elected representative.

[henry2109]

This looks indeed not only unfortunate for you, but also not right.

 

It is my understanding that the decision has to be given to you in a written form and with a reason of the denial. So what I would do first and immediately send an registered mail to the head of the embassy, state what you did here (and add again all documents), and ask for a written and signed decision. Further, demand an answer to how and where to contest the decision.

 

I consider your chances well that they may approve the visa. Or at least you should get a way to contest.

[khunyod]

Welcome to America under the Trump regime. The State Department takes its lead from leadership, and aliens are suspect (especially from <deleted>hole countries https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/01/<deleted>hole-countries/580054/ ).

[Sheryl]

When a visa is denied it is almost always because the Consular official was not convinced the person intended to return i.e suspected them of being intending to migrate. The index of suspicion for this is high with Thais because many if them do in fact fail to return.

 

In cases where married to a US citizen, usually what they suspect is that the intention is to circumvent the lengthier process of getting a spousal visa and then apply to stay once in country. They suspect this because many people do it.

 

Obviously they were wrong not to examine suppporting documentation that would establish reason to stay in Thailand.

 

Your best recourse is to complain to your representative but I suggest you not harp on the issue of wanting to know the reason. The reason was in fact given in as much detail as it ever is. 

 

Rather the point of your complaint should be that the interviewer refused to look at supporting documentation that would have shown evidence of close ties to Thailand/intention to return.

 

And the gist of your complaint should be a request for re interview with full examination of the supporting documentation.

 

 

[henry2109]

6 minutes ago, khunyod said:

Welcome to America under the Trump regime. The State Department takes its lead from leadership, and aliens are suspect (especially from <deleted>hole countries https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/01/<deleted>hole-countries/580054/ ).

I am not at all a fan of the orange conman in the WH, but this has really nothing to do with him.

[VocalNeal]

"At the discretion of the official"? 

 

The least easy place to take one's wife is anywhere one can claim residency.

[Skallywag]

Many years ago I looked into this and it seemed daunting/near impossible at that time.

 

Found this on a google, from Thailand Lawyer website, "In our experience, the following characteristics will assist in granting a tourist visa:  professionals employed by large or multinational companies, high status Thai government civil servants, the very wealthy, and elderly persons seeking to visit relatives."

 

They only say "assist" not "allow", so no guarantees ever it seems

 

 

[JAFO]

Sheryl's first 2 paragraphs are exactly why they deny people. I know at least 6 Thais that worked it for months, finally got their US Visa and never came back to Thailand and have been in the states for a numerous years now.

 

Unfortunately the screening process can be rather discouraging because it really is a "Call" made by the agent. Facts, documents or not, its all about the perception in the interview. 

 

Hope it all works out for you.  

 

 

[kralledr]

I was there as well this morning 5 min interview but they keeped her passport i wonder why?

[Zzon]

I had to apply 3 times before they gave my wife a tourist visa and I also an American citizen!!.., money grab!

[Khunbilly]

Get in the back of the line. Your story is only the one of many Similar ones over the years. The same happened to my wife, and we had a stronger case than yours. They gave us a list Of excuses and we went back the next day (when you could just get in line). The second lady talked to the First Lady and she rejected the application, too.
 

However, an obvious working girl with a tank top, super short and tight skirt, many tattoos, high heels and at least 15 baht of gold adorned in various places got a 10-year visa at that same time. I overheard her boyfriend (not legally registered husband) say that they had been together less than a year and lived in Pattaya. 
 

Its a fairly subject process getting a visa at the US embassy. Especially under Trump. One point to note is that a travel history (with lots of photographs!) is important, but the trips don’t carry much weight if it’s to Asian countries. Trips to Australia or Europe carry a lot more weight. After we did a trip to the UK and Norway, had been together and I’d had my job longer, my wife was five a one-year and then a ten-year visa. 

[Suradit69]

Thai immigrations and Embassies are not exceptionally difficult then ... at least comparatively speaking.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Suradit69

[ThaiBunny]

3 hours ago, henry2109 said:

I am not at all a fan of the orange conman in the WH, but this has really nothing to do with him.

Agree 100%, it's always been very difficult to get a visa for the US for Thais

[Suradit69]

3 hours ago, khunyod said:

Welcome to America under the Trump regime. The State Department takes its lead from leadership, and aliens are suspect (especially from <deleted>hole countries https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/01/<deleted>hole-countries/580054/ ).

  

3 hours ago, henry2109 said:

I am not at all a fan of the orange conman in the WH, but this has really nothing to do with him.

 

Maybe the O/P could contact Rudy Giuliani. Tell him you've got some dirt on Biden or Warren.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Suradit69

[new2here]

To be fair, the language in 214(b) is the same now under the current president as is has been under previous administrations - so.. I’m not so sure any claim/assertion that this denial is due to X or Y presidency is true... but....  how any one consular officer views this language may vary, but given that most all front-line consular personnel are career staff and not political appointees, I suspect  that little has really changed day-to-day speaking....

 

... it IS also true that 214(b) is the catch-all.... and again, to be fair, I can see why.  I think it would be simply impractical to create legislation or specifically delineate each and very single condition or situation which would make one inadmissible under statue... so having one generalized statement - to me - seems to be the most practical solution.

 

As noted by others, I just think that on a relative basis, given the country (Thailand) in question, and when combined with the local social, economic and other domestic factors put together, the “bar” as to what would reasonably meet the test of not being an intended immigrant as viewed by a US front-like consular officer is higher than perhaps other countries or on par with other nations similarly situated. 

[Boon Mee]

A very common theme for this particular American Embassy in Bangkok.  Having used the services of American Embassies in Cairo and Singapore in the past, this one seems to be staffed with the most rude consular officials of the bunch. 

[mfd101]

Much the same as for Thais who want to visit Australia, and indeed for falangs living longterm in Thailand or just visiting Thailand: Those (all too many) who break the rules make life difficult for those who don't.

[Washingtonmike]

My Thsi wife got denied because she didn't have property or a house book.

[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, Sheryl said:

The index of suspicion for this is high with Thais because many if them do in fact fail to return.

Citation needed.

[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, Sheryl said:

In cases where married to a US citizen, usually what they suspect is that the intention is to circumvent the lengthier process of getting a spousal visa and then apply to stay once in country. They suspect this because many people do it.

And another citation needed.

[Number 6]

Eight years ago my wife had zero problems. Only letter of job guarantee from her job in big BKK city corporation. No serious assets. Few trips about Asia. Nothing.

 

 

 

They suspected her of staying. Seems like your so indignant because that was the plan.

 

You just got married and NOW want to visit after being together better part of ten years?!!? Should have applied prior. Smells fishy. Why wouldn't you want her to meet your family three years ago? Or when you had the spawn?

 

Do you live upcountry? Wife no job or no job linked to a corporation? Minimum 2-3 years?

 

Even leaving the kid here is no guarantee. Lots of people go abroad to work and send money home.

 

Up to them in this case.

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Number 6

[Nip]

While trying to comprehend why a 'particular' Honorary Consul I knew would take up the position which is supposedly unpaid apart from €1100 per annum and the unchecked 'Diplomatic Bag' I then looked at the small print and discovered that the visa fees etc are or can be paid directly to the Honorary Consul. I often wondered could this have something to do with rejected applications? Also Transparency International last year noted the rise of Diplomatic Crime?

[from the home of CC]

1 hour ago, Suradit69 said:

Thai immigrations and Embassies are not exceptionally difficult then ... at least comparatively speaking.

 

 

 

 

Been saying this for a while, Thailand has treated me better than my own embassy here but unless you had a spouse (or gf) refused you probably never realize this..

[NanLaew]

5 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Obviously they were wrong not to examine suppporting documentation that would establish reason to stay in Thailand.

 

Your best recourse is to complain to your representative but I suggest you not harp on the issue of wanting to know the reason. The reason was in fact given in as much detail as it ever is. 

 

Rather the point of your complaint should be that the interviewer refused to look at supporting documentation that would have shown evidence of close ties to Thailand/intention to return.

 

And the gist of your complaint should be a request for re interview with full examination of the supporting documentation.

Broad agreement with that.

 

If indeed the US consular officer didn't look at any of the OP's wife's paper submissions, there still may have been something that possibly made them think there was a risk that she would overstay. It has been years since I have done or assisted with a US visa application but I assume like the UK visit visa application, there is a lengthy online procedure where support documents need to be uploaded as part of the application and prior to the interview? The application is itself is a statement of fact and must be corroborated by any supporting documentation. If this is the case, I would assume this consular officer has access to these digital submissions or statements and something misstated or misrepresented in those obviated the need to look at any other paperwork? I would focus on the 4 simple questions she was asked and review thoroughly the documentation or statements digitally submitted for a clue before kicking off any appeal procedure.

 

When my wife was applying for her initial visit visas for the UK, she stressed that since she was my wife and mother of our children, she would be returning to our family home which was in Thailand with me, her husband, who has long-stay non-immigrant visa status. In my accompanying letter, there was no suggestion whatsoever that I was planning to stay in the UK as my employment was not in the UK and I would be returning for work in the far east (not in Thailand BTW). Similarly, there was no mention of my having my own property there and we would either be staying with relatives or in hotels. The plan was to ensure there was no way they could assume that she/we would do otherwise. We didn't mention in the support documentation for her application that the kids would be traveling with us. Since they have dual Thai/UK citizenship and would use their UK passports to enter the UK, it didn't seem relevant to her application.

 

Good luck and I hope the OP's wife manages to get this decision overturned.

Edited December 10, 2019 by NanLaew

[newnative]

   I am so sorry this happened.  This exact same thing happened when my spouse applied for a travel visa.  We had spent hours and hours gathering all the support documents we could think of using the Embassy's guidelines and we felt we had a strong case for approval:  legally married in the US to an American citizen; received a travel visa in 2015 (Obama administration);  traveled to the US with me in June 2016 and returned to Thailand after 10 days (Obama administration); traveled to Australia, Europe, and other Asian countries and returned to Thailand; condo ownership in spouse's name; good lawyer job in Thailand (few good job prospects for a 53 year-old Thai in the US); new CR-V auto in spouse's name; strong ties to Thailand including family members and caring for his elderly mother; American spouse is living in Thailand and has been living in Thailand since 2010; large Thai bank accounts in spouse's name; and strong community ties. 

    A complete and utter waster of time because they did not look at one document.  The interview, which, of course, I was not allowed to be a part of, went much the same as your wife's.  Turned down for the same reason your wife was turned down. 

     I sent an email to the Embassy asking for an explanation of why my spouse was turned down and I got the answer that the interviewing officer (IO) is making the determination in the interview as to whether the applicant will disappear into America if he or she is granted a travel visa.  I think they used the polite term of 'non-returning' but basically that's what the IO is suppose to be determining.  Makes sense but how can the IO make a fair decision if none of the documents that support the case of the spouse returning to Thailand are even looked at?

     I, too, wrote my Senators and Congressman and I did get a letter of support from one of the Senators asking that my spouse be given every consideration, etc., etc., at the next interview.   It's been a number of months since our rejection and we are planning to try again later this month--likely the Senator's letter will be ignored along with everything else we show up with.  I have no evidence but I think the word is out with the Trump administration--we had no problem under Obama.

[Sheryl]

23 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Broad agreement with that.

 

If indeed the US consular officer didn't look at any of the OP's wife's paper submissions, there still may have been something that possibly made them think there was a risk that she would overstay. It has been years since I have done or assisted with a US visa application but I assume like the UK visit visa application, there is a lengthy online procedure where support documents need to be uploaded as part of the application and prior to the interview? If this is the case, I would assume this consular officer has access to these digital submissions and something misstated or misrepresented in those obviated the need to look at any paperwork? I would focus on the 4 simple questions she was asked and any review thoroughly documentation digitally submitted for a clue before kicking off any appeal procedure.

 

When my wife was applying for her initial visit visas for the UK, she stressed that since she was my wife and mother of our children, she would be returning to our family home which was in Thailand with me, her husband, who has long-stay non-immigrant visa status. In my accompanying letter, there was no suggestion whatsoever that I was planning to stay in the UK as my employment was not in the UK and I would be returning for work in the far east (not in Thailand BTW). Similarly, there was no mention of my having my own property there and we would either be staying with relatives or in hotels. The plan was to ensure there was no way they could assume that she/we would do otherwise. We didn't mention in the support documentation for her application that the kids would be traveling with us. Since they have dual Thai/UK citizenship and would use their UK passports to enter the UK, it didn't seem relevant to her application.

 

Good luck and I hope the OP's wife manages to get this decision overturned.

 

There is no appeals procedure for a US visa. But a person can reapply.

 

And as far as I know no documents are uploaded online before the interview other than the main application form.

[newnative]

8 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

There is no appeals procedure for a US visa.

 

And as far as I know no documents are uploaded online before the interview other than the main application form.

Correct.

[Sheryl]

An offensive post has been removed.