30 year lease - Usufruct

[SkyRider]

Buying a house in Thailand, the land would have to be in my girlfriends name.

 

Since the land would not be in my name, I would like some security.  

 

How secure - or not secure - is a Usufruct 30 year lease?  

[Khon Kaen Jeff]

This has been done to death over the years, so a bit of Googling and you will find untold amounts of info on it.

 

But from my wisdom as long as it's all done correctly with a good lawyer etc it is most def worth having and does give you protection. Basically means she cannot sell the house or even boot you out unless you agree. Your name will be on the back of the title deeds or 'chanlot' whatever it's called here.

[janchangtha]

Hi. I live in a house owned by my ex-wife and have a usufruct. This has worked for me for 12 years now, even though my ex-wife has made several attempts at cancelling the usufruct, selling the house+land and kicking me out. A usufruct is very different from a 30 year lease. A 30 year lease must be registered with the land department to be effective. Not every land department will let you register a usufruct. Better to ask first before you buy the land. There are two different types of usufruct. One will allow you to rent out the land and the other will allow you to transfer your usufruct to any party. I have the latter. This allowed me to register a will with my local town hall, bequesting my usufruct to a good friend in the event of my death. Don't forget that the usufruct is for your lifetime. Bequesting it to someone you trust will make it clear to your girlfriend that she has nothing to gain in the event that you die. The usufruct also requires anyone, incl. the owner, to have your permission to set foot on the land. No need for a lawyer. I did it myself at the land department for 75 baht. Good luck.

Edited December 18, 2019 by janchangtha

[Khon Kaen Jeff]

3 minutes ago, janchangtha said:

Hi. I live in a house owned by my ex-wife and have a usufruct. This has worked for me for 12 years now, even though my ex-wife has made several attempts at cancelling the usufruct, selling the house+land and kicking me out. A usufruct is very different from a 30 year lease. A 30 year lease must be registered with the land department to be effective. Not every land department will let you register a usufruct. Better to ask first before you buy the land. There are two different types of usufruct. One will allow you to rent out the land and the other will allow you to transfer your usufruct to any party. I have the latter. This allowed me to register a will with my local town hall, bequesting my usufruct to a good friend in the event of my death. Don't forget that the usufruct is for your lifetime. Bequesting it to someone you trust will make it clear to your girlfriend that she has nothing to gain in the event that you die. The usufruct also requires anyone, incl. the owner, to have your permission to set foot on the land. No need for a lawyer. I did it myself at the land department for 75 baht. Good luck.

does it work with a condo the same way if in the wife's name?

[GalaxyMan]

9 minutes ago, Khon Kaen Jeff said:

Basically means she cannot sell the house or even boot you out unless you agree. Your name will be on the back of the title deeds or 'chanlot' whatever it's called here.

Not exactly correct. She can sell the land/house, but the holder of the usufruct cannot be put out by the new owner for the term of the usufruct. Your name and the fact that you have an usufruct will be added to the chanote.

[Khon Kaen Jeff]

1 minute ago, GalaxyMan said:

Not exactly correct. She can sell the land/house, but the holder of the usufruct cannot be put out by the new owner for the term of the usufruct. Your name and the fact that you have an usufruct will be added to the chanote.

What if you are not living there?

[GalaxyMan]

Just now, Khon Kaen Jeff said:

What if you are not living there?

Doesn't matter. The usufruct gives all rights to whatever property it is attached to. It's as close to owning as you can get. You can lease it out, for example. It's like a lease on steroids and is taxed much lower for income purposes than a lease.

[Khon Kaen Jeff]

1 minute ago, GalaxyMan said:

Doesn't matter. The usufruct gives all rights to whatever property it is attached to. It's as close to owning as you can get. You can lease it out, for example. It's like a lease on steroids and is taxed much lower for income purposes than a lease.

Right. So technically even if by law she can flog it no-one in their right mind would buy a property with the knowledge that a handsum fat bellied farang could just pitch up at anytime with his cheap beers?

[kingofthemountain]

The problem is the big difference with the legal side and the reality side

i mean even if you have your full right to stay in the house, the thais can

still manage, in a way or another (Particularly if you are in her village among 

her family and friends) to do every hour of your time a path to the hell.

Who in his right mind wants (Or can) to live in an hostile foreign permanent environment

where every opportunity to bother you is used by the locals? You need to think about it also imo before to put any money in a land or a house.

As the good old one says

never ''invest'' in Thailand more than you are ready to lose

some good things happen here, but a lot of bad things too

and you can't never be sure about the future

Edited December 18, 2019 by kingofthemountain

[Khon Kaen Jeff]

4 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

The problem is the big difference with the legal side and the reality side

i mean even if you have your full right to stay in the house, the thais can

still manage, in a way or another (Particularly if you are in her village among 

her family and friends) to do every hour of your time a path to the hell.

Who in his right mind wants (Or can) to live in an hostile foreign permanent environment

where every opportunity to bother you is used by the locals? You need to think about it also imo before to put any money in a land or a house.

As the good old one says

never ''invest'' in Thailand more than you are ready to lose

some good things happen here, but a lot of bad things too

and you can't never be sure about the future

Yes, which is why these things have never been totally credible. Some farangs just accept if it goes tits up with the wife then the house etc goes with it, an occupational hazard, so to speak.

 

Remember though you don't have to live there, so if you are not your point becomes null and void.

[ukrules]

I wonder, does the Hua Hin land office register Usufructs in foreigners names?

[sometimewoodworker]

20 minutes ago, ukrules said:

I wonder, does the Hua Hin land office register Usufructs in foreigners names?

The only way to find out if they currently allow them is to find someone who has recently got one or try yourself. They change when the head of the land office changes.

[ukrules]

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

hey change when the head of the land office changes

It's crazy that they are allowed to change the law based on their own personal whims.

 

If they denied me an usufruct based on personal policy I wonder if there's any way I could have them fired or forced to comply for not doing their job in accordance with the law

Edited December 18, 2019 by ukrules

[DannyCarlton]

Not available in Pattaya.

[ukrules]

56 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Not available in Pattaya.

Are you sure on this? If you send a top Bangkok law firm to handle the arrangements for you will they simply accept that the guy in charge says no and that's the end of the matter? I don't believe that for one minute.

[DannyCarlton]

8 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Are you sure on this? If you send a top Bangkok law firm to handle the arrangements for you will they simply accept that the guy in charge says no and that's the end of the matter? I don't believe that for one minute.

Hasn't been available for 2-3 years now. I did phone a law firm in Bangkok who specialised in property matters, they wouldn't touch it. Basically, yes, the guy in charge says "No" and that's the end of the matter.

[KhaoYai]

5 hours ago, janchangtha said:

There are two different types of usufruct. One will allow you to rent out the land and the other will allow you to transfer your usufruct to any party. I have the latter. This allowed me to register a will with my local town hall, bequesting my usufruct to a good friend in the event of my death.

I'm not saying this is wrong but I've never heard of a transferable usufruct before - better to check the legality of such an arrangement with a GOOD lawyer.  I have a Usufruct and it dies with me. I was told that it is possible for the registered owner of the land to sell the property but that the Usufruct remains in place and cannot be removed by any new owner.  I was also told that it is possible to include a clause requiring the registered owner to notify the Usufruct holder that such a sale was proposed and that their agreement could be required.  As regards the value of such a Usufruct to your beneficiaries under a will - as I say, the Usufruct dies with you but there is a way to leave them at least something. What you do is to register the Usufruct in 2 names - one being your son or daughter for example. That way the Usufruct would remain in force until you both die.  The one key thing with any Usufruct agreement is that it must be registered on the Chanotte (title) at the land office and show your name in the transactions on the rear of that document.

 

As has been mentioned by another poster - the value of a Usufruct may be strongly connected to the location of the property.  You can have all the rights in the world but if the land is in your wife's village with her relatives living all around you - the reality is that you probably won't want to stay in a hostile environment in the event of a break up. I wouldn't waste my time in such a situation - build on independent land only.

 

My house is actually registered in the name of the wife of a friend who lives 260km away. It is not in a village as such and none of her relatives live nearby so I feel quite secure in that respect. I am also not married and even if I was to get married again, I would not transfer the house to my wife's name.

 

There are ways to protect your situation further - one of which is to place a mortgage over the property but you need to check with the local land office to see if they accept foreign mortgages.  In addition to this - you would have to get your wife to accept such a mortgage - easier said than done.  I've had that discussion with several Thai females who say they would be appalled if their husband wanted such a thing - they'll happily use your money to build the house though!!!

 

The most important thing is that you discuss your proposals with a GOOD lawyer who should be able to advise you on all the options available and the chronology involved.  Be aware that if you do things correctly, you don't lose everything in the event of a divorce and you can require your wife to sell the house and pay you out a share of the proceeds.  Don't move any money anywhere or mix any cement until you have done that.

 

Notwithstanding all of the above it is possible - as has been seen in fairly recent court cases, for a property to be fraudulently sold and/or any restrictions placed upon it removed by a dodgy wife in cahoots with corrupt lawyer - rare but it has happened.

 

I've never heard of such a thing happening in the West, probably because lawyers get struck off and imprisoned for such crimes whereas in Thailand, they still appear to be practicing.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, ukrules said:

It's crazy that they are allowed to change the law based on their own personal whims.

 

If they denied me an usufruct based on personal policy I wonder if there's any way I could have them fired or forced to comply for not doing their job in accordance with the law

Probably not, though there is one lawyer (who I will never do business with) who claims that he can force the situation. 
 

I doubt the truth of that claim but have no direct knowledge of its truth or falsity.

 

The way things work is that you can only ever have a chance of changing a policy if you have a personal connection who is higher in that particular branch of government.
 

Also the law is written in a way to allow them to interpret it in the way they or their superiors want and as such they are following the law.

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Probably not, though there is one lawyer (who I will never do business with) who claims that he can force the situation.

I think I know who that lawyer is and I've done quite a lot of business with him - I'd recommend him and his Thai staff to anyone. If we are talking about the same person, he has taken an immigration office to court (twice I believe) and won.

 

No matter how the rules are written or how much agency is given to local offices - the law is the law and will prevail in a court hearing (if you have 2 or 3 years to wait).

[ThomasThBKK]

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

It's crazy that they are allowed to change the law based on their own personal whims.

 

If they denied me an usufruct based on personal policy I wonder if there's any way I could have them fired or forced to comply for not doing their job in accordance with the law

Yes you can, i think @Isaanlawyer wrote about such cases before in the tm30 petition thread

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

I think I know who that lawyer is and I've done quite a lot of business with him - I'd recommend him and his Thai staff to anyone. If we are talking about the same person, he has taken an immigration office to court (twice I believe) and won.

I have no idea if it is the same lawyer, though probably not as the conduct to me and a couple of years later to someone I know, was extremely unprofessional and if it were in another country would probably have had serious repercussions from the governing body of the profession.