Now is your chance to leave!!

[saengd]

"Yes, you're correct. If I were 'arguing,' that would be a better way to state the situation.

But I'm not arguing.  I'm simply satisfied living here.

That seems to make a lot of people angry".

 

People get angry because you don't think what they think, how sad is that!

 

But I agree 100%, I'm simply satisfied living here also, warts and all, and I do have other options but chose not to take them.

[Ventenio]

20 minutes ago, saengd said:

"Yes, you're correct. If I were 'arguing,' that would be a better way to state the situation.

But I'm not arguing.  I'm simply satisfied living here.

That seems to make a lot of people angry".

 

People get angry because you don't think what they think, how sad is that!

 

But I agree 100%, I'm simply satisfied living here also, warts and all, and I do have other options but chose not to take them.

I think some people are missing the point.

 

100% this is unhealthy and could lead to serious long-term effects.  all negative.   

 

100% this isn't good.  It's not that we are thinking differently.  Everyone knows pollution is bad, but the difference is living in denial and WOW will this pollution get worse  

 

It's not IF you like it or not, because some people like crack, smoking, doing acid....etc.   BUT we are simply bringing awareness that you are in denial and during your body harm.  and your brain.  You are engaging in a dangerous behavior and we are acting like your parents and trying to help you be healthy.   But, maybe because of other reasons, people don't want to face the reality because that means change.  so they suffer.  

 

and some people are paying 600,000 a year to live in polluted air and begging to get a visa to stay longer and smiling as they cough or will cough and go to the clinic and say, "well, ah....it's not too bad."  and then the baht gets stronger and .....   and .. 

 

just check the numbers now.... there is no GREEN.   Green is healthy and we won't see green until June.     

 

 

[cerox]

All of you have good points.

The truth usually is somewhere in the middle.

I think FolkGuitar might take the pollution a little bit too relaxed, but your point about the stress many create for themselves is good and valid. I have someone in my family who is always sick because she is anxious about so many things. The subconscious fear/stress you create for yourself every time you check the AQI is definitely high, and for some (notice I say some) surely more damage than the pollution itself.

Nevertheless I personally try to protect myself as much as possible and not only for 3 weeks of the year. It is about reducing and minmizing exposure for me, not getting crazy about it. So if I am outside and I need to talk of course I take the mask off otherwise nobody will understand me.

Just consider if you use an air purifier 12 hours per day you already cut that exposure in half, compared to many locals who have their windows open day and night.

 

I am a little bit puzzled how angry this topic makes many people. Both the air pollution itself and people who chose to live in Northern Thailand.

[cerox]

If air quality is important for you, you should use your air purifier at home. Last time it rained here in CNX a few days ago I measure 80 AQI after that in front of my room. That is not good for international standards - you want to be below 50 as you said. So by all means, open the window twice per day for fresh air and apart from that use your air purifier - I agree the air in CNX is not healthy. It is one of the drawbacks we have to live with here.

[Ventenio]

1 minute ago, cerox said:

Nevertheless I personally try to protect myself as much as possible and not only for 3 weeks of the year.

It's a nice post, thanks.  I'm not angry, I'm just drinking coffee.  BUT it's NOT three weeks. 

 

https://aqicn.org/city/chiang-mai/

 

look at the time frame from green to green.  

 

it's not as long as i thought, but still 20% of the year straight.  and then it's only "safe" about 5 out of 12 months.  

[cerox]

Ventenio,

you are right too. I am aware that the pollution is above 150 (usually) for 3-4 months (last time Feb. until late May). and this year Nov, Dec had many of those days.

Nothing I can do about it. Stay flexible so you can move within TH if it gets worse. The risk of it getting worse is definitely high I would say.

 

This is SEA, green air (AQI below 50) where do you find that? Even on the smaller islands I bet there is someone burning trash next to you regularly. But overall better air in the South.

[saengd]

9 minutes ago, Ventenio said:

I think some people are missing the point.

 

100% this is unhealthy and could lead to serious long-term effects.  all negative.   

 

100% this isn't good.  It's not that we are thinking differently.  Everyone knows pollution is bad, but the difference is living in denial and WOW will this pollution get worse  

 

It's not IF you like it or not, because some people like crack, smoking, doing acid....etc.   BUT we are simply bringing awareness that you are in denial and during your body harm.  and your brain.  You are engaging in a dangerous behavior and we are acting like your parents and trying to help you be healthy.   But, maybe because of other reasons, people don't want to face the reality because that means change.  so they suffer.  

 

and some people are paying 600,000 a year to live in polluted air and begging to get a visa to stay longer and smiling as they cough or will cough and go to the clinic and say, "well, ah....it's not too bad."  and then the baht gets stronger and .....   and .. 

 

just check the numbers now.... there is no GREEN.   Green is healthy and we won't see green until June.     

 

 

"You are engaging in a dangerous behavior and we are acting like your parents and trying to help you be healthy". 

 

One of the reasons I left the West to live here over twenty years ago was, in part, to avoid having to listen to people who wanted to help me all the time, with everything, every day, at 70 years of age I feel I have earned the right to make my own decisions.

 

Life is a series of trade offs.

 

I accept the risk of living with polluted air in Chiang Mai.

I accept the risk of eating bacon and sausages.

I don't accept the risk of riding a motorbike in Thailand so I drive a truck.

 

[Ventenio]

4 minutes ago, saengd said:

Life is a series of trade offs.

 

I accept the risk of living with polluted air in Chiang Mai.

I accept the risk of eating bacon and sausages.

I don't accept the risk of riding a motorbike in Thailand so I drive a truck.

exactly, don't let anyone try to control you or tell you what to do.  nobody needs another parent, especially a joker you don't know.

 

really, i respect this view and I'll leave you alone.

 

good luck.

 

 

[Ventenio]

5 minutes ago, cerox said:

This is SEA, green air (AQI below 50) where do you find that?

maybe only Phuket, but I'm not going there.

 

2020 might be the Japan move.  In the works....

[FolkGuitar]

1 hour ago, saengd said:

People get angry because you don't think what they think, how sad is that!

 

It's very, very sad. It's a case of "If I'm not happy, how dare you be happy."  The old saying 'Misery loves company' became so common for a reason!  Thoreau wrote; 'most men lead lives of quiet desperation.'

 

1 hour ago, Ventenio said:

I think some people are missing the point.

 

 

No, no one is missing the point. The 'point' has been made several thousand times a year in ThaiVisa, going back many, many years. None of this is 'new ideas.'  No one is being 'mislead' by either viewpoint. They've both been stated countless times.  I don't know how long you've been in Thailand, but I see that you are a new member of ThaiVisa. Please believe that we ALL are very aware of what is going on. We just choose to react to it differently.

 

52 minutes ago, cerox said:

All of you have good points.

The truth usually is somewhere in the middle.

I think FolkGuitar might take the pollution a little bit too relaxed, but your point about the stress many create for themselves is good and valid. I have someone in my family who is always sick because she is anxious about so many things. The subconscious fear/stress you create for yourself every time you check the AQI is definitely high, and for some (notice I say some) surely more damage than the pollution itself.

 

 

Stress-related illnesses FAR out weigh air-pollution related illnesses, at least, according to the World Health Organization. Some stats from WebMed;

Seventy-five percent to 90% of all doctor's office visits are for stress-related ailments and complaints.

Forty-three percent of all adults suffer adverse health effects from stress.

Percent of people who regularly experience physical symptoms caused by stress - 77 %

Regularly experience psychological symptoms caused by stress - 73 %

  Dec 10, 2017

 

As Cerox says "the subconscious fear/stress you create for yourself every time you check the AQI is definitely high, and for some (notice I say some) surely more damage than the pollution itself. "  I'd go so far as to say 'for all,' not just some. Just because you don't feel your pulse quicken doesn't mean you aren't experiencing stress.  If you continually monitor a situation you feel is harmful to you, that WILL produce a physiological stress reaction even if you don't feel it NOW. The long-term effects are deadly.  This is NOT my opinion. This is medical fact.

 

I choose not to stress over the air pollution problem.

I don't hide from it. I wear a mask when I feel the need to do so. 

I also meditate twice daily, because there are stressors all around us, from traffic jams to mother-in-laws.

What are you doing about your stress?

[Ventenio]

1 hour ago, FolkGuitar said:

We just choose to react to it differently.

I've been in Thailand almost five years.   THIS is the problem.  We are idiots because we choose to inhale death air.  Thais do not choose this toxic environment, they have no choice.  We have a choice.  There is only one proper reaction, and that's to take care of our health.  React "differently" is like saying I'll hang out in Chernobyl because I'm sure this ash cloud is OK.

 

Thousands of threads because this is life saving information, and there is only one proper action.

 

you must leave.

 

stay at your own peril.

 

How can you enjoy the pollution if you have the means to escape?

[FolkGuitar]

48 minutes ago, Ventenio said:

I've been in Thailand almost five years.   THIS is the problem.  We are idiots because we choose to inhale death air.  Thais do not choose this toxic environment, they have no choice.

 

 

Sorry, but EVERYONE has a choice. Some of those choices are harder than others. Few are forced to stay where they are unless they are in jail.

We see people leaving their homes with nothing more than the clothes they are wearing, leaving behind family and friends, and walking hundreds, of not thousands of miles, to change their lives. Some choices are harder than others. They don't want to leave family. They don't want to move to a lower standard of living. They don't want, don't want, don't want...!  But they choose to leave despite that.

People leave family behind all the time, people leave jobs, leave property, leave everything, if they CHOOSE to change their lives. They may not be happy about the choice, yet they choose to leave. Some choices are harder than others.

 

Quote

  React "differently" is like saying I'll hang out in Chernobyl because I'm sure this ash cloud is OK.

 

Such drama... such histrionics!  I haven't heard anyone saying the pollution is OK. I doubt you have either, so why make such ridiculous comments?

 

Quote

How can you enjoy the pollution if you have the means to escape?

 

Are you really this off the rails?  Who is it that you are imagining enjoys pollution?

Is it any wonder we don't take people like you seriously?

 

 

 

[cerox]

I wonder if those of you you complain constantly are not the ones who cannot leave because of children, property etc. If that is so, get your air purifier on and get on with your life. Or plan your move, this is what you can do indoors with good air ????

 

The air pollution gets worse, esp. since 2019. Nobody will do anything about it. This is what you have to accept and find ways to deal with it peacefully or move out.

 

I leave on Feb 6th until May 10th and I do not see any need to change that. Because where do you guys go for clean air? Honestly Asia is not the answer you need to go back to a Western country. AQI 50-130 is normal in SEA. Even on small islands like Boracay it was not better when I measured because of traffic pollution.

 

Malaysia is a good option for those who want cleaner air. But in trade-off as many said before.Usually AQI 50-60 when I was there.

[Dante99]

10 minutes ago, cerox said:

Malaysia is a good option for those who want cleaner air. But in trade-off as many said before.Usually AQI 50-60 when I was there.

How is it when the wind is blowing smoke in from the annual Sumatra burning? It is terrible every year then.

[cerox]

That is good to know. Please tell me when that usually is so I and others can avoid.

I just travelled there and noticed the "normal" air was definitely better than CNX.

[ICELANDMAN]

I think if you can choose a fairly rural and breezy place I don't think that pollution is a problem in Thailand, apart from your Thai neighbor who burns green vegetables because he thinks that he looks good to his animals, must calculate the direction wind and close and open window house is my preferred angry past time. 

[JimGant]

On 12/29/2019 at 3:08 AM, bkk6060 said:

I like the bad air.

Keeps people away, golf courses not as crowded, less traffic.

Wear a 3m mask and forget about it.

I don't even wear a mask, 'cause for some reason I don't even notice the bad air.....no coughing, no eye watering, no shortness of breath. Why? All those younger years of smoking? Living in LA in the 60's? -- maybe I built up immunity. I dunno. Anyway, I doubt pulmonary illness will be my demise, just too many other things that can go wrong. But if it is, hey, just means fewer annual extension hassles at Immigration -- serendipity. Folkguitar is right -- leave if it bothers you, otherwise quit moaning.

 

As far as global warming, we've had many in the past -- did wonders for clearing out the glaciers that made living too cold around the newly-carved Great Lakes. Sure, this latest iteration has man-made contributions -- we just can't come to a conclusion of just what percentage. Meanwhile, we do know the costs of reducing man-made contributions -- huge, if they're to have any effect. But, again, we don't know just what the corresponding effect (benefit) will be -- Nature, not man, is still the primary driver in global warming.

 

And so what.....? Your great grandkids may have to relocate a few miles inland from the coast. But their expense on heating bills will be reduced. And the growing season will be substantially increased, lowering food prices -- and world starvation. And, lemme see -- fewer vagrants freezing to death under bridges; PETA will love the fact that minks are no longer farmed for their coats. No more blizzards to make the Xmas trip to grandma's a pain. I could go on and on.And maybe Greta should enlarge her horizon....

 

Anyway, come on pollution to CM. Maybe that will help me find a parking place at the airport the next time pesky relatives decide to visit. But wait a minute! Those pesky relatives can read about CM's pollution, so maybe they've already cancelled their travel plans. Lordy, lordy -- the serendipity just keeps oozing.

 

 

[vivid]

3 hours ago, Dante99 said:

How is it when the wind is blowing smoke in from the annual Sumatra burning? It is terrible every year then.

Just avoid the months of July - October for Malaysia and you'll be golden the vast majority of the time.   There was a freak year (due to the weather and earlier than usual burning) in 2013 though, SG and MY were hit by extremely heavy smoke in June.    

 

 

 

[Ventenio]

LOL.    Sure the Chernobyl reference was funny, BUT CM has the worst air in the WORLD!!!!   In the the entire world, CM was the worst!!!  Come on, the worst in the world.   You couldn't bring anyone to see you or you would be putting their life at risk.  10-years ago you said to yourself, "OK, I Need to save more money, work harder, and then go to the worst polluted city in the world and defend my decision online every day!!!"

 

Sure, mental illness is worse, but the worst polluted city in the world won't make it better.  If you constantly try to find worse things, of course you could live in a sewer of radioactive waste and say it could be worse.

 

Luckily I'm thousands of kms from CM right now, but I really will feel bad when CM becomes, once again, the city with the worst air in the world!!!

 

yea, you won't notice it now.....but nobody can avoid the harmful affects of the death air.

[FolkGuitar]

1 hour ago, Ventenio said:

LOL.    Sure the Chernobyl reference was funny,

 

No. it wasn't.

[cerox]

Ventenio,

thats all correct, which is the reason why I and other go out for around 3 months. Also doing the same in Feb this year.

I am going out for convenience. Sure you could stay with air purifier and masks, but not my thing.

[tabarin]

Guess one must be stuck (house / financially / emotionally) to keep denying how bad it is and still stay here on the long run. 
There is not really another argument or logical reason to stay otherwise unless insane / living in denial.

Been coming and living here now for like since 8 years, originally planned it to be for life, but I can't accept this with a working brain.
That said, there are still a few good months to make it a holiday destination instead.

[dcnx]

5 hours ago, Ventenio said:

LOL.    Sure the Chernobyl reference was funny, BUT CM has the worst air in the WORLD!!!!   In the the entire world, CM was the worst!!!  Come on, the worst in the world.   You couldn't bring anyone to see you or you would be putting their life at risk.  10-years ago you said to yourself, "OK, I Need to save more money, work harder, and then go to the worst polluted city in the world and defend my decision online every day!!!"

 

Sure, mental illness is worse, but the worst polluted city in the world won't make it better.  If you constantly try to find worse things, of course you could live in a sewer of radioactive waste and say it could be worse.

 

yea, you won't notice it now.....but nobody can avoid the harmful affects of the death air.

You’re talking about guys who throw all common sense out the window and marry third world prostitutes. Making poor life decisions is just something many of them do.
 

That’s not a dig on any one particular person here, it’s just something that exists here at scale. 

 

 

[dcnx]

15 hours ago, cerox said:

If air quality is important for you, you should use your air purifier at home. Last time it rained here in CNX a few days ago I measure 80 AQI after that in front of my room. That is not good for international standards - you want to be below 50 as you said. So by all means, open the window twice per day for fresh air and apart from that use your air purifier - I agree the air in CNX is not healthy. It is one of the drawbacks we have to live with here.

We have two running in different rooms. They make a huge difference. I’ll turn them on with the app on the way home and the air will be clean before we get there.

[meechai]

17 hours ago, JimGant said:

I don't even wear a mask, 'cause for some reason I don't even notice the bad air.....no coughing, no eye watering, no shortness of breath. Why? All those younger years of smoking? Living in LA in the 60's? -- maybe I built up immunity. I dunno. Anyway,

Depends really on whether your even capable of noticing your loss

But there is no such thing as pollution immunity

Instead your lungs could be trashed

 

The inside of your lungs (when healthy) Are lined with fine hair like projections called Cilia

They basically sweep & move microbes and debris out of your airways

They also house little cells that use mucus to help protect

You also have Alveoli which are basically tiny sacs in your lungs they basically expand to take in oxygen

Then when you breathe out, they alveoli shrink to expel carbon dioxide

 

Both these things are very important to keeping you from developing various lung disease.

But both can get literally gummed up (for lack of better explanation)

yet you as a human grow accustomed to this reduced capacity unless your

a decent athlete in which case you will quickly notice your decreasing VO2 Max

 

So that is the bad news. The good news is if your not already well on your way to various

types of lung disease it is actually reversible

 

Which is why you often read about folks who left Chiang Mai or other polluted areas & for a few weeks in

clean air they are coughing up all kinds of disgusting sputum as their lungs fight to regain health

 

But.......as you say it is personal choice & if this is what you choose so be it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ventenio]

Many of these posters chose CM because they couldn't afford back home for the same length of time, I get that.  You need so many millions of baht for a nice 20-year retirement.  They are also likely the same people who worked a horrible job and complained every day to everyone, and did nothing about it.  I get that too, since so many people are afraid of change.  Then there is me, who embraces change every year or two but that also has negative implications (leaving say 10 to 20 friends).  But EVERY person I knew for more than a month in Thailand has had health issues because of the air.  90% had to go to the hospital, and all of them are simply too afraid to go someone else.  Spending 10,000 baht a move to breathe clean air has their mind thinking, "well, but google says this county has this problem and this problem and what if i don't like it?"   And, yes, the allure of cheap hookers and beer someone far outweighs the death to their lungs and brain.  Hookers almost never lead to happiness, pollution never does, drinking rarely does, and complaining is the icing on the cake....

 

imagine retiring and then spending your days on a website talking about how bad the air is in the city you chose.  Yes, you must feel really stupid.  Well, we all make mistakes but WOW are we fortunate to be able to pack up and save ourselves.

 

I'll wait until I see some 200 readings for CM before I rant again.  

 

 

[hmficc]

13 hours ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

No. it wasn't.

We have an opening in the Chernobyl Garden Club. It will fit you like a glove.

[FolkGuitar]

35 minutes ago, hmficc said:

We have an opening in the Chernobyl Garden Club. It will fit you like a glove.

 

Glad to note that you are already a member.

But, thanks, but no thanks. I prefer to stay in Chiang Mai.  I'd hate to try to learn another language at my age. Besides, the climate here agrees with our love of the outdoors.

[Ron jeremy]

1 hour ago, Ventenio said:

Many of these posters chose CM because they couldn't afford back home for the same length of time, I get that.  You need so many millions of baht for a nice 20-year retirement.  They are also likely the same people who worked a horrible job and complained every day to everyone, and did nothing about it.  I get that too, since so many people are afraid of change.  Then there is me, who embraces change every year or two but that also has negative implications (leaving say 10 to 20 friends).  But EVERY person I knew for more than a month in Thailand has had health issues because of the air.  90% had to go to the hospital, and all of them are simply too afraid to go someone else.  Spending 10,000 baht a move to breathe clean air has their mind thinking, "well, but google says this county has this problem and this problem and what if i don't like it?"   And, yes, the allure of cheap hookers and beer someone far outweighs the death to their lungs and brain.  Hookers almost never lead to happiness, pollution never does, drinking rarely does, and complaining is the icing on the cake....

 

imagine retiring and then spending your days on a website talking about how bad the air is in the city you chose.  Yes, you must feel really stupid.  Well, we all make mistakes but WOW are we fortunate to be able to pack up and save ourselves.

 

I'll wait until I see some 200 readings for CM before I rant again.  

 

 

Imagine retiring, your family children etc come for a visit, and they don't recognize you because you are wearing a gas mask at the airport. First impressions?..you did well DAD! ????????????????????????

were proud of u! 

[FolkGuitar]

36 minutes ago, Ron jeremy said:

Imagine retiring, your family children etc come for a visit, and they don't recognize you because you are wearing a gas mask at the airport. First impressions?..you did well DAD! ????????????????????????

were proud of u! 

 

Imagine retiring, your friends, family and children etc come for a visit every year, as they have for the past 19 years, and enjoying a lovely garden-spot vacation, happy to see us and happy to have such a delightful place to visit. That's the reality 'we' live in.

Sorry yours is so different.