New Computer Time!

[cdnvic]

If they were smart they'd offer a free upgrade to Ultimate to all Dell customers for re-activating with a new key and revoking the old one. Soon there will be too many PCs changing hands for this to work so I doubt it will ever happen.

[mac.wheeler]

If they were smart they'd offer a free upgrade to Ultimate to all Dell customers for re-activating with a new key and revoking the old one. Soon there will be too many PCs changing hands for this to work so I doubt it will ever happen.

I would also argue that it's good business practice to allow vista to be pirated, market share is market share regardless of how it was obtained. And with market share comes power.

Put it this way, all those people who won't pay for vista will stick with their current OS or (shock horror) move across to one of the free offerings based upon Linux.

Is that good for M$? I think not.

They want paying users, but they need users full stop or they will lose ground. I'm sure there have been meetings at M$ where this was discussed, they are not stupid.

But they did of course make it very difficult to pirate at launch, to make sure they got the biggest bite at that fresh cherry as they could, but now I think we will start to see vista installed all over the place without a purchased licence key. I doubt M$ will do much more than make some noise, they need those people using vista more than they need the cash.

[CBinParadise]

Thanks for the input CB, I think I would definitely have to upgrade the RAM as I've read that Vista(my OS of choice ) uses 500mb alone!

You'll find that Vista runs very smooth on 1.5+gb of ram. It handles the extra memory much more efficiently than XP did, and the complaints of UAC and DRM being a huge problem just haven't appeared. You won't be disappointed with it, I can assure you that.

DRM is dying on it's own, so don't worry about playing politics, take the OS that's going to work best for you. For me, I'm more than happy with it. Beats XP hands down.

DRM is NOT dying in the PC business, although it seems to be falling out of favor in the RETAIL music and video business.

Vista gives you a little eye candy in Aero -- and for that you are helping to force DRM and other user-restricting technologies down eveybody's throat, out of ignorance. I am VERY familiar with MSFT's aims in this regard --- and they are not doing this to make your liife easier --- they are doing it to make it even harder for you to choose non-Microsoft alternatives. Do you use Firefox? forget it --- IE will be your only choice. Do you use Quicken or Turbotax? You'll be switching to MS Money, like it or not. RealAudio? better get used to MediaPlayer. These are oversimplified examples, but they illustrate what I'm trying to say.

Microsoft is a monopoly. For years we have all put up with it. This time (since Vista offers very few palpable advantages and many serious disadvantages) we have choices which were not realistic earlier: stick to to XP, Mac, Open Source. Microsoft is very concerned about these alternatives and is doing all it can to reduce their growth -- believe me, I know this from the inside. Why was longhorn (aka Vista) released without the relational filesystem, without Network Access Protection, without WindowsForms, without Avalon, etc etc etc? It was released because they needed to stop the growth of Microsoft alternatives Right Now, before they developed any steam. The DRM in Vista will lock you in --- THAT's what Vista is about.

You should stop advising people to "take the OS that works best for you" if you don't know what you're talking about. It has nothing to do with "politics". Vista is a Very Bad Choice, and a totally unnecessary waste of money. If you want to learn why, I'll be glad to give you full details.

[cdnvic]

Thanks for the input CB, I think I would definitely have to upgrade the RAM as I've read that Vista(my OS of choice ) uses 500mb alone!

You'll find that Vista runs very smooth on 1.5+gb of ram. It handles the extra memory much more efficiently than XP did, and the complaints of UAC and DRM being a huge problem just haven't appeared. You won't be disappointed with it, I can assure you that.

DRM is dying on it's own, so don't worry about playing politics, take the OS that's going to work best for you. For me, I'm more than happy with it. Beats XP hands down.

DRM is NOT dying in the PC business, although it seems to be falling out of favor in the RETAIL music and video business.

Vista gives you a little eye candy in Aero -- and for that you are helping to force DRM and other user-restricting technologies down eveybody's throat, out of ignorance. I am VERY familiar with MSFT's aims in this regard --- and they are not doing this to make your liife easier --- they are doing it to make it even harder for you to choose non-Microsoft alternatives. Do you use Firefox? forget it --- IE will be your only choice. Do you use Quicken or Turbotax? You'll be switching to MS Money, like it or not. RealAudio? better get used to MediaPlayer. These are oversimplified examples, but they illustrate what I'm trying to say.

Microsoft is a monopoly. For years we have all put up with it. This time (since Vista offers very few palpable advantages and many serious disadvantages) we have choices which were not realistic earlier: stick to to XP, Mac, Open Source. Microsoft is very concerned about these alternatives and is doing all it can to reduce their growth -- believe me, I know this from the inside. Why was longhorn (aka Vista) released without the relational filesystem, without Network Access Protection, without WindowsForms, without Avalon, etc etc etc? It was released because they needed to stop the growth of Microsoft alternatives Right Now, before they developed any steam. The DRM in Vista will lock you in --- THAT's what Vista is about.

You should stop advising people to "take the OS that works best for you" if you don't know what you're talking about. It has nothing to do with "politics". Vista is a Very Bad Choice, and a totally unnecessary waste of money. If you want to learn why, I'll be glad to give you full details.

I DO know what I'm talking about but I just don't care about your silly soapbox speech.

[mac.wheeler]

You should stop advising people to "take the OS that works best for you" if you don't know what you're talking about. It has nothing to do with "politics". Vista is a Very Bad Choice, and a totally unnecessary waste of money. If you want to learn why, I'll be glad to give you full details.

You are assuming Mr Average gives a darn, do you think he cares about any of this?

Advising anyone paying money for a new OS install to take anything but vista right now is pure misdirection, the "OS that works best for him" will be the one that continues to be supported, developed and improved, right now the ONLY M$ OS on the table that fits the bill is vista.

I understand your arguments, I even agree with most of them, but it doesn't change the fact that if you want to stay mainstream you are going to have to run vista at some time.

Edited May 23, 2007 by mac.wheeler

[Nikkijah]

I never knew operating systems touched so many nerves

I appreciate all of the arguments but I'm not sure that the deeper rooted problems are everybody's problems...are they?

[mac.wheeler]

I never knew operating systems touched so many nerves

I appreciate all of the arguments but I'm not sure that the deeper rooted problems are everybody's problems...are they?

The shocking thing is I don't even like vista and here I am arguing for it! Good grief, I've been suckered by Mr Gates

[cdnvic]

I never knew operating systems touched so many nerves

You should see some of the Windows vs Mac debates.

That's always another viable option for you btw.

Edited May 23, 2007 by cdnvic

[Nikkijah]

I never knew operating systems touched so many nerves

You should see some of the Windows vs Mac debates.

That's always another viable option for you btw.

Please don't cdnvic, not another option

I think the whole windows Vs. MAC debate is a little bit pathetic actually

I've already ruled out a MAC for reasons I don't want to get started on...

[cdnvic]

No worries... I hate that debate too

[sjaak327]

Search back through the Jan-Feb topics in this forum and you'll find posts about where to obtain OEM versions for less than the retail box versions. These however, are unsupported.

Unsupported as in you can't call M$ on the phone and get help, in every other way they are identical to a retail version.

So how many of us have ever called M$ on the phone for help?

OEM is the way to go to save money, usually you can only buy an OEM copy if you are buying components, so people usually buy a cheap HDD and an OEM OS CD to get around that.

I've never called MS & I don't know anybody who has either, so the only real difference is the support, not the authenticity right?

100% correct, OEM versions of windows are completely legitimate IF PURCHASED CORRECTLY, they are not supposed to be sold over the counter, they are for shipping with new PC's. The work around I mentioned above of buying a piece of hardware has been used for over a decade but it's still a work around, there is always the (slim) possibility that M$ will do something about it, but imagine how hard it would be?

On a side note, you have to laugh at Microsoft sometimes. There have been many attempts at 'cracking' vista and they all failed.

So some bright spark decided to realease a Dell OEM install CD to the public, pre-activated, only downside is it has the Dell logo in the control panel (big deal).

So now M$ must be banging their heads against the wall, so clever stopping people using fake licence keys to activate vista, yet a simple CD image just steps around the problem.

So what do they do now? Every Dell PC has the same activation code, how can they tell which ones are real and which ones are pirate copies? I'm sure it is possible and will happen but oh boy what a headache for the boys at Redmond.

Actually there are cracks that work 100%, the OEM crack is one, just install Vista (using any disk), install the OEM driver, and register Vista with an OEM key that is provided in the crack, this gives you a fully functional OS, it will also pass the genuine windows check, and for Microsoft there is no viable way to stop this simply because there are probably thousands of these computers aready sold by ARCER, ASus and some others. So they cannot possibly invalidate these OEM keys (at least not without invalidating thousands of genuine OEM versions).

Then regarding CBinParadise rant (sorry I don't have a better word for it). DRM is and cannot be an issue to avoid purchasing Vista. It is also available in XP and on the Mac, and it's not for Microsoft's benefit but for content providers (like online MP3 and Video renting companies for instance), And how do you think the Itunes service makes it's money ? Surely DRM is part of that service as well.

Of course it is also not that hard to remove DRM from MP3's and Video's with the right tools.

[nikster]

I like features, and I like pretty graphics. But trying out Vista Ultimate has made me realize what's most important about an Operating System: Staying out of my way.

What I most want from an Operating System is not notice it. I don't want to deal with "operating system" issues. Be they dialogs, be they install problems, be they UAC-style annoyware built in - I don't want it. I want to go about my day, my internet surfing/emailing/working with minimal distraction.

So here's a list of OSs in order that fulfill this criteria

1 - OS X

2 - .. nothing for a while...

3 - Windows XP

4 - Windows Vista

5 - Linux *

* I only tried ubuntu. Display resolution / video card not recognized, forums advised to install some drivers which apparently involved recompiling something along the way. No thanks. Maybe it works brilliantly on other systems YMMV.

OS X - well, it just doesn't get in the way. Once in a blue moon "repair permissions" needs to be run on the HD, that's it. Things like backups are a snap, can start from external HDs without fuss, etc etc.

XP - I am using this now, gets in the way and has annoyment built in, but not too much. Needs frequent restarts to remain happy, defrag hard disks, and sleep mode doesn't work reliably.

Vista - Very much in the way, most obvious offender UAC, but also nags with security dialogs, and whatnot. I have never before seen software throw up dialogs that fill my - rather large - screen and where the user has to read what's in the dialog because there is no cancel button. It s unbelievable I should have to put up with this kind of thing. Other OSs work just fine without that, including XP.

Of course, if you buy a new laptop and they don't offer XP, you will have to go with Vista as driver issues will make XP drop below Vista in the above ranking

Edited May 23, 2007 by nikster

[CBinParadise]

Then regarding CBinParadise rant (sorry I don't have a better word for it). DRM is and cannot be an issue to avoid purchasing Vista. It is also available in XP and on the Mac, and it's not for Microsoft's benefit but for content providers (like online MP3 and Video renting companies for instance), And how do you think the Itunes service makes it's money ? Surely DRM is part of that service as well.

Of course it is also not that hard to remove DRM from MP3's and Video's with the right tools.

sjaak327: Apparently you think that DRM only protects content such as MP3s and MPEGs. If that were true I'd agree with you. But within MSFT, the term DRM has a much broader meaning -- which is tightly woven into Next Generation Secure Computing Base (now known as System Integrity). Those names sound like good ideas, don't they? They sound like they will finally protect Windows from viruses and/or worms, right? They do not, and Microsoft has withdrawn all claims that they do. What DRM/NGSCB/SI will actually insure is that (a) you are not running a pirated copy of the OS or any licensed Apps ( Your data --- created by Word, Outlook, etc --- can easily transition out of your control --- ie, you won't be able to read them unless you have the appropriate licenses and © turn Microsoft into sole judge of the court of last resort regarding what you can and cannot do with your computer.

You don't have to believe me. But you should believe Bruce Schneier, one of the words foremost computer security experts. Here's what he has to say:

"Windows Vista includes an array of “features” that you don't want. These features will make your computer less reliable and less secure. They'll make your computer less stable and run slower. They will cause technical support problems. They may even require you to upgrade some of your peripheral hardware and existing software. And these features won't do anything useful. In fact, they're working against you."

My points a, b, c above are not fully implemented in Vista -- yet. But Vista without question lays the groundwork for them, especially in components like Bitlocker -- which requires special encryption hardware called TPM (that YOU pay for) when it runs in transparent operation or user authentication modes. More and more computers are being sold with TPM -- trusted platform module hardware that will finally allow Microsoft to enforce the Windows licensing terms that you agreed to when you opened the packaging of your new computer.

What does that license say? Here a direct quote:

The software [Vista] is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights. Unless applicable law gives you more rights despite this limitation, you may use the software only as expressly permitted in this agreement. In doing so, you must comply with any technical limitations in the software that only allow you to use it in certain ways.

If you keep reading the license, you'll discover that:

1. If your copy of Vista came with the purchase of a new computer, that copy of Vista may only be legally used on that machine, forever.

2. If you bought Vista in a retail store and installed it on a machine you already owned, you have to completely delete it on that machine before you can install it on another machine.

3. You give Microsoft the right, through programs like Windows Defender, to delete programs from your system that it decides are spyware.

4. You consent to being spied upon by Microsoft, through the “Windows Genuine Advantage” system.

Vista DRM (using the term the way Microsoft does) gives all of these advantages to Microsoft. What advantages does Vista give you?

The reason I'm ranting (to use your ad hominem term) is that once you upgrade to Vista, turning back to XP will be an extremely painful option. Sticking with XP will lose you nothing except a little eye candy.

I'm not going to argue this any more. I'm trying to warn anybody who will listen. Do a little research and see for yourself. But please don't just buy Vista because Microsoft thinks it's a good idea.

CB

PS Somebody said that Vista had never been cracked. You might want to take a look at:

http://apcmag.com/node/4769

http://www.raymond.cc/blog/archives/2006/1...-cracked-proof/

http://keznews.com/2222_New_Vista_3_way_crack

CB

[sjaak327]

Right, first of all I was never the person who claimed that vista wasn't cracked, in fact I described the OEM crack, which by the way is the only reliable crack apart from the Dell crack mentioned earlier. The crack in your first link (the KMS crack) will not work on ultimate for instance, and if you use a comprimised key, there goes your geniune windows activation capability.

Now back to DRM,

I am aware of bitlocker (a feature only available in Ultimate by the way), but nobody is forcing anyone to use it, and it does protect your data beyond belief

I'm not sure how Microsoft could use it to enforce it's will against you, but that might be my lack of imagination. We are talking about a sceurity feature here, which indeed works with such a TPM chip, or if such a chip is lacking, a USB stick, but it is meant to be used to secure your harddrive, and I have to be honest, when used improperly could destroy your data (or at least makes it inaccessible). Incidentally I think it could work quite well in Active Directory envirornments.

Now regarding the license, point 1 is nothing new, and was part of the license agreements as far back as win95 or maybe even before that, OEM versions are always tied to the actual machine.

Point 2 again is nothing new, I mean XP needed to be activated as well, and if you had installed it on machine A, activation would fail on machine B.

Point 3, Windows Defender is not mandatory, you can disable it without trouble, it's mererly a service, and I use it in additon to adware en Spybot.

Point 4, I believe this isn't new either, WPA is there for a few years already and is working under XP as well.

Bottom line for me is that I don't see any reason not to upgrade to Vista based upon the above, and to be honest (personal opinion/personal observation) it runs way faster then XP on the same hardware and it also looks a whole of a lot better.

I have upgrade both my Main Desktop and my Media Center to Vista and up until now there is no way in hel_l that I would want to go back to XP. Not that XP is bad, but Vista is better, because it is quicker and it looks better, also up until now I was able to run all my apps, except for the EPO Orchestrator console, but I believe a beta will be soon available which will get around that too.

[Nikkijah]

Honestly, I really don't mind this thread being hijacked, it's an interesting diversion to my earlier questions

[cdnvic]

Vista's UAC never bothers me. If I know I'm going to be installing a lot of things I just login quickly as Administrator and it goes away.

[Nikkijah]

Vista's UAC never bothers me. If I know I'm going to be installing a lot of things I just login quickly as Administrator and it goes away.

Strange you say this, I contacted a friend today who's already got Vista as I wanted his opinion on the whole thing, he said he logs in as administrator and has no awkward MS messages or anything else interrupting his work and that Vista is the most stable OS he''s ever used...

[mac.wheeler]

Vista's UAC never bothers me. If I know I'm going to be installing a lot of things I just login quickly as Administrator and it goes away.

Strange you say this, I contacted a friend today who's already got Vista as I wanted his opinion on the whole thing, he said he logs in as administrator and has no awkward MS messages or anything else interrupting his work and that Vista is the most stable OS he''s ever used...

I was very happy when I worked out how to turn UAC off!

[sjaak327]

nah don't turn it off, that's not very bright, leave it on, and better yet for maximum security let it ask for admin credentials (if logged on as admin, if logged on as user, this is default behaviour anyway).

I mean that is a very usefull feature, I hardly ever see it, except when I install something, or want to manage my computer, if I see it otherwise, there might indeed be something dodgy going on.

[cdnvic]

nah don't turn it off, that's not very bright

If someone knows what they're doing it's not a problem.

[sjaak327]

nah don't turn it off, that's not very bright

If someone knows what they're doing it's not a problem.

Maybe not, but at least if some kind of malware tries to run on your system, uac will prevent it, since I will certainly know something dodgy is happening, if I turn it off, I might not notice it. Anyway I'm not running Vista under MS recommended way, since I'm logged on as administrator instead of normal user. So I guess some room for improvement right there

[mac.wheeler]

nah don't turn it off, that's not very bright, leave it on, and better yet for maximum security let it ask for admin credentials (if logged on as admin, if logged on as user, this is default behaviour anyway).

I mean that is a very usefull feature, I hardly ever see it, except when I install something, or want to manage my computer, if I see it otherwise, there might indeed be something dodgy going on.

I agree it's useful, it's also a pain in the kneck for me, I run a couple of pretty old compilers to support legacy software and they both trigger multiple UAC warnings every time I compile some code, it drives me nuts, so it's staying switched off for now.

On a side note I just had a nightmare of an install, initially I blamed vista, it wasn't until I tried installing XP x64 on the same PC with the same result I realised I was barking up the wrong tree.

It seems that Abit have shipped the Fatal1ty F-190HD uATX motherboard with bog standard x86 RAID drivers in all the places they need either vista 64 or XP x64, the worst thing was both vista and XP accepted the wrong drivers and it wasn't until first boot that the RAID fell over (usually couldn't find ntkernel but random enough to have me scratching my head).

Had it been XP I was having a problem with I would have looked for something tricky, but I instantly blamed vista for the problem, wrongly so.

You live and learn I guess.

[CBinParadise]

(quoting sjaak327's words in a different order):

sjaak327:

I have upgrade both my Main Desktop and my Media Center to Vista and up until now there is no way in hel_l that I would want to go back to XP. Not that XP is bad, but Vista is better, because it is quicker and it looks better, also up until now I was able to run all my apps, except for the EPO Orchestrator console, but I believe a beta will be soon available which will get around that too.

Sjaack327, you've already upgraded to Vista. Of course you are going to defend your choices --- they cost you a bunch of money (if you did them legally). I honestly believe Vista is going to cause you serious headaches down the road because, for the first time in history, DRM/NGSCB/SI are going to make it possible for MSFT to enforce all of its draconian and anti-consumer license terms.

You clearly know more about Vista than most people on this thread --- you're what MSFT calls a early adopter. I am trying to reach the people who have not yet committed themselves to Vista ---- to tell them to wait for as long as they possibly can before switching.

For this reason, I ask that you and I take our detailed Vista conversation offline --- I can't convince you without getting deep into the technical details (some of which you are missing) --- which are going to be incomprehensible to most readers.

sjaak327:

I have upgrade both my Main Desktop and my Media Center to Vista and up until now there is no way in hel_l that I would want to go back to XP. Not that XP is bad, but Vista is better, because it is quicker and it looks better, also up until now I was able to run all my apps, except for the EPO Orchestrator console, but I believe a beta will be soon available which will get around that too.

Wait until you try hooking up some HiDef streams to your media center.

sjaak327:

I am aware of bitlocker (a feature only available in Ultimate by the way), but nobody is forcing anyone to use it, and it does protect your data beyond belief

I'm not sure how Microsoft could use it to enforce it's will against you, but that might be my lack of imagination. We are talking about a sceurity feature here, which indeed works with such a TPM chip, or if such a chip is lacking, a USB stick, but it is meant to be used to secure your harddrive, and I have to be honest, when used improperly could destroy your data (or at least makes it inaccessible). Incidentally I think it could work quite well in Active Directory envirornments.

You are missing my point about Bitlocker and TPM and yes, you are unsure about how MSFT could use DRM/NGSCB/TPM/SI to enforce its will against you, because you don't know their history, or Microsoft's real agenda, or the technological details. I do, and will be happy to explain in detail --- offline.

For the people who have not yet upgraded to Vista: Wait as long as possible before you do.

CB

[cdnvic]

American Heritage Abbreviations Dictionary 3rd Edition

FUD

1. fear, uncertainty, and disinformation

2. fear, uncertainty, and doubt

[CBinParadise]

American Heritage Abbreviations Dictionary 3rd Edition

FUD

1. fear, uncertainty, and disinformation

2. fear, uncertainty, and doubt

Traduce

to cast aspersions without the wit or courage to support them.

[cdnvic]

Can we get back on topic and help get Nikki's computer sorted? You can carry on your crusade in your own topic.

[lopburi3]

I just bought a "last years model" HP 1589L and believe it would do what poster wants - computer alone was about 17k and I already had a new 7k 19" Wide monitor and Visa at another 5k so about 30k in all. Best of all it is very silent and can download at night in bedroom without spousal complaints. I personally like the looks better than the new all black models.

[Nikkijah]

I just bought a "last years model" HP 1589L and believe it would do what poster wants - computer alone was about 17k and I already had a new 7k 19" Wide monitor and Visa at another 5k so about 30k in all. Best of all it is very silent and can download at night in bedroom without spousal complaints. I personally like the looks better than the new all black models.

Isn't that a printer?

I've just googled 'HP 1589L' and all that appears is a printer

[jdinasia]

If you wait 2 more months you'll have all NEW choices to pick from!

[lopburi3]

I just bought a "last years model" HP 1589L and believe it would do what poster wants - computer alone was about 17k and I already had a new 7k 19" Wide monitor and Visa at another 5k so about 30k in all. Best of all it is very silent and can download at night in bedroom without spousal complaints. I personally like the looks better than the new all black models.

Isn't that a printer?

I've just googled 'HP 1589L' and all that appears is a printer

No. It really is a computer as below:

HP PAVILION a 1589L

- Intel Pentium D processcor 820 supporting

( 2.8 GHz, MB L2 Cache FSB, 800MHz )

- Free DOS Operation system

- 200 GB SATA, 1024 MB RAM DDR2 up to 2 GB

- 9 in 1 media reader

- DVD+-RW/+-R Super MultiDrive with Lightscribe Technology, Double Layer

- Integrated intel high Difination Audio 7.1

Surround Sound ready

- nVidia Geforce 7300LE 3D PCI-Express Graphic up to 256 MB with TV-out port

- Integrate 10/100 Base-t Ethernet

- 7 USB 2.0 Port, 3PCI Express Slot,IEEE-1394

- HP Daluxe Multimedie Keyboard,

Optical scroller mouse