webfact Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 U.S. Senate rejects Democratic bid for documents in Trump impeachment trial By Susan Cornwell and David Morgan House Managers Rep. Jerry Nadler (D-NY) and Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA) hold a news conference on the rules for the Senate impeachment trial of U.S. President Trump in Washington, U.S., January 21, 2020. REUTERS/Mary F. Calvert WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Republican-controlled U.S. Senate rejected a Democratic bid on Tuesday to force the White House to produce documents and evidence in President Donald Trump's impeachment trial, an early sign the trial could proceed along lines favourable to Trump. As the third impeachment trial in U.S. history began in earnest, senators voted 53-47 along party lines to block a motion from Democratic leader Chuck Schumer to subpoena White House documents related to Trump's dealings with Ukraine. Schumer immediately introduced a second motion demanding a subpoena of State Department records and documents related to the matter. The Senate will debate the motion for up to two hours. Democrats have called on the Senate to remove Trump from office for pressuring Ukraine to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden, a political rival, and then impeding the inquiry into the matter. Trump, who was impeached last month by the Democratic-led House of Representatives on charges of abusing power and obstructing Congress, denies any wrongdoing and describes his impeachment as a partisan hoax to derail his 2020 re-election. During early debate, Trump's chief legal defender attacked the case as baseless and a top Democratic lawmaker said there was "overwhelming" evidence of wrongdoing. With the television cameras rolling, U.S. Chief Justice John Roberts convened the proceedings and the two sides began squabbling over Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's proposed rules for the trial. White House counsel Pat Cipollone, who is leading Trump's defence, attacked the foundation of the charges against the Republican president and said Democrats had not come close to meeting the U.S. Constitution's standard for impeachment. "The only conclusion will be that the president has done absolutely nothing wrong," Cipollone said as he argued in favour of McConnell's proposal to decide on whether to allow further witnesses or documents later in the trial. "There is absolutely no case," he said. DEMOCRATS SEEK TESTIMONY Democratic Representative Adam Schiff, who helped spearhead the House impeachment inquiry, summarized the charges against Trump and said the president had committed "constitutional misconduct justifying impeachment." Schiff said that although the evidence against Trump was "already overwhelming," further witness testimony was necessary to show the full scope of the misconduct by the president and those around him. 2020-01-21T184041Z_1_LOV000LQT4TPR_RTRMADV_STREAM-2000-16X9-MP4_USA-TRUMP-IMPEACHMENT-STATEMENTS-ROUGH-CUT.MP4 U.S. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said on Tuesday that he would move to set aside any efforts by Democrats to force an early vote on subpoenaing witnesses and documents during afternoon proceedings in President Donald Trump's impeachment trial. Democrats want a number of current and former Trump administration officials, including Trump's former national security adviser John Bolton, to testify. "For all of the name-calling and fingerpointing from the president’s counsel, we did not hear a single argument on the merits about why there should not be the documents and witnesses we requested in this trial," Schumer said. McConnell unveiled a plan on Monday for what would be a potentially quick trial without new testimony or evidence. It would have given Democratic prosecutors and Trump's lawyers 48 hours, evenly split, to present their arguments over four days. That plan was changed to give each side three days to give up to 24 hours of opening arguments. The rules also will allow the House's record of the impeachment probe admitted as evidence in the trial, as Democrats had demanded. "We discussed it at lunch. It was pretty much a (Republican) conference consensus that made a lot more sense," Republican Senator Ron Johnson said. Democrats had accused McConnell of trying to rig a trial with proposed rules they said would prevent witnesses from testifying and bar evidence gathered by investigators. McConnell has repeatedly said the rules would mirror those the Senate used in the 1999 impeachment of then-President Bill Clinton, a Democrat. Republican senators have not ruled out the possibility of further witness testimony and evidence. Under McConnell's plan, lawyers for Trump could move early in the proceedings to ask senators to dismiss all charges, according to a senior Republican leadership aide, a motion that would likely fall short of the support needed to succeed. Even if such a motion fails, Trump is almost certain to be acquitted by the 100-member chamber, where a two-thirds majority is needed to remove him from office. But the impact of the trial on his re-election bid in November is far from clear. TRUMP SUPPORT FIRM Democrats accuse Trump of pressuring Ukraine, a vulnerable ally, to interfere in U.S. elections at the expense of American national security and say he is a danger to American democracy. Trump and his legal team say there was no pressure and that the Democrats' case is based on hearsay. Cipollone has described the Ukraine investigation as an illegal attempt to remove a democratically elected president and avert his re-election. "They're not here to steal one election, they’re here to steal two elections,” Cipollone said on Tuesday. Cipollone also repeated a charge that Republicans were excluded from the secure facility where the initial depositions for the House impeachment hearings took place. In fact, Republican members of the House Intelligence Committee were not only present but questioned witnesses. The Senate trial is expected to continue six days a week, Monday through Saturday, until at least the end of January. Trump has sought to rally his base with the impeachment issue, fundraising off it. At raucous election rallies, he has painted himself as the victim of a witch hunt. Televised congressional testimony from a parade of current and former officials who spoke of a coordinated effort to pressure Ukraine to investigate the Bidens has done little to change support for and against Trump's impeachment. Reuters/Ipsos polling since the inquiry began shows Democrats and Republicans responding largely along party lines. According to a Reuters/Ipsos opinion poll conducted Jan. 13 and 14, 39% of U.S. adults approved of Trump's job performance, while 56% disapproved. It also found 45% of respondents said Trump should be removed from office, while 31% said the impeachment charges should be dismissed. MARKETS SHRUG OFF TRIAL The trial of a U.S. president could be freighted with drama, huge political risk and the potential unravelling of a presidency. But financial markets have shrugged it off, and the disclosures in the months-long impeachment investigation thus far have done little to boost anti-Trump sentiment among undecided voters or shift away moderate Republican voters. No president has ever been removed through impeachment, a mechanism the nation's founders - worried about a monarch on American soil - devised to oust a president for "treason, bribery or other high crimes and misdemeanors." A pivotal event in the impeachment case is a July 25 phone call in which Trump asked Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy to investigate the Bidens and a discredited theory that Ukraine, not Russia, meddled in the 2016 U.S. election. Hunter Biden had joined the board of Ukrainian energy company Burisma while his father was vice president. Trump has accused the Bidens of corruption without offering evidence. They have denied wrongdoing. Democrats said Trump abused his power by initially withholding $391 million in Ukraine security aid intended to fight Russia-backed separatists, and a coveted White House meeting for Zelenskiy, to pressure Ukraine to announce the investigations of the Bidens. Trump's legal team says there is no evidence that the aid was a condition for receiving help. The obstruction of Congress charge relates to Trump directing administration officials and agencies not to comply with House subpoenas for testimony and documents related to impeachment. (Reporting by Patricia Zengerle, Richard Cowan, Doina Chiacu, David Morgan, Jan Wolfe, Susan Cornwell, Susan Heavey, Karen Freifeld, Lisa Lambert and Tim Ahmann in Washington; Writing by Paul Simao and John Whitesides; Editing by Howard Goller, Grant McCool and Peter Cooney) -- © Copyright Reuters 2020-01-22 Follow Thaivisa on LINE for breaking Thailand news and visa info 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post neeray Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 Acquittal or not, it doesn't really matter. What matters is the American electorate knows that he's guilty. Guilty of orchestrating a New York gangster-style "offer-you-can't-refuse" to the Ukraine President in order to assist his less than guaranteed election win by attempting to gather dirt on his prime opponent who isn't even yet his prime opponent. Unfortunately, had the Republicans not stymied this impeachment effort, more damaging dirt on this POTUS would have surfaced. Mr President, this dirty trick backfired on you and on your Trump-Republican party. 18 2 2 4 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tug Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 Not in the least surprised they will fight tooth and nail to hide the facts truth and facts are the enemy of trump we must rember come 2020 and hold the republicans accountable 15 2 2 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post thaibeachlovers Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 2 hours ago, webfact said: "For all of the name-calling and fingerpointing from the president’s counsel, we did not hear a single argument on the merits about why there should not be the documents and witnesses we requested in this trial," Schumer said. because you ain't in charge and those that are don't have to do what you want. 12 1 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BobBKK Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 What a Circus! I have never seen someone as disingenuous as Schiff 22 1 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post neeray Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 18 minutes ago, BobBKK said: What a Circus! I have never seen someone as disingenuous as Schiff Are you in Thailand? Take a look around, look way up. You will see much great disingenuous politicians in GENERAL. And take a hard look at who Schiff is impeaching; now there's the epitome of disingenuousness. 11 2 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sujo Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 36 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: because you ain't in charge and those that are don't have to do what you want. Yeah its quite ok to perjure an oath. 4 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chomper Higgot Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 28 minutes ago, BobBKK said: What a Circus! I have never seen someone as disingenuous as Schiff Well ye, if you are a crook in the WH Schiff is dangerous. 7 2 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BobBKK Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 33 minutes ago, neeray said: Are you in Thailand? Take a look around, look way up. You will see much great disingenuous politicians in GENERAL. And take a hard look at who Schiff is impeaching; now there's the epitome of disingenuousness. I certainly am and Greetings to you too! false equivalency Trump was elected fairly. 12 1 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post spidermike007 Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 Evidence? Documents? Witnesses? Why on earth would we want a fair trial? I believe the senate and the GOP are going to pay a very heavy price for their nonsense, and their unwillingness to at least hear the evidence, come November. I think we will be looking at a democratically controlled senate, house, and executive branch this time around. And the GOP deserves that trouncing. The people are tired of the nonsense. 15 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Saint Nick Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 R: "Our man is toooootally innocent!" D : " We have documents and witnesses, who might say otherwise!" R: "Oh yeah! We will not allow them! Because ...you know...our guy is toooooootally innocent!" US- democracy at work! The Republicans- the constitution lovers! 10 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neeray Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 19 minutes ago, BobBKK said: I certainly am and Greetings to you too! false equivalency Trump was elected fairly. With a little help from his friend (foe to others). Can't agree on the false equivalency. Same only different. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sujo Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Saint Nick said: R: "Our man is toooootally innocent!" D : " We have documents and witnesses, who might say otherwise!" R: "Oh yeah! We will not allow them! Because ...you know...our guy is toooooootally innocent!" US- democracy at work! The Republicans- the constitution lovers! Dont forget the evidence requested is not from dems but from trump supporters. So surely they would clear him. whats funny is that the dems are actually getting some evidence in whilst arguing for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Kelsall Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 23 hours ago, neeray said: Acquittal or not, it doesn't really matter. What matters is the American electorate knows that he's guilty. Guilty of orchestrating a New York gangster-style "offer-you-can't-refuse" to the Ukraine President in order to assist his less than guaranteed election win by attempting to gather dirt on his prime opponent who isn't even yet his prime opponent. Unfortunately, had the Republicans not stymied this impeachment effort, more damaging dirt on this POTUS would have surfaced. Mr President, this dirty trick backfired on you and on your Trump-Republican party. So you admit the purpose of this whole charade is to influence the 2020 election. Edited January 22, 2020 by metisdead Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes or wording. 7 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post johnmell Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 Do the Democrats really think the American public, who are not known for having a great attention span, are going to sit watching aĺl this turgid stuff. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Loh Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 11 minutes ago, johnmell said: Do the Democrats really think the American public, who are not known for having a great attention span, are going to sit watching aĺl this turgid stuff. Maybe yes maybe no but for sure that the senators are forced to listen to unfolding evidences and they have to make a decision. Those Reps senators who ignored the house hearings will have to sit attentively without interruptions and listen. From the day 1 hearing, the Reps lawyers are still regurgitating the same narrative with no new evidence which gets rather boring, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post thaibeachlovers Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 hour ago, spidermike007 said: I believe the senate and the GOP are going to pay a very heavy price for their nonsense, and their unwillingness to at least hear the evidence, come November. I think we will be looking at a democratically controlled senate, house, and executive branch this time around. And the GOP deserves that trouncing. The people are tired of the nonsense. I agree that the people are sick and tired of the nonsense of the Dems constant whining for the past 3 years about Trump instead of doing their job and making America better. Every day the, IMO, farce in the senate continues the more, IMO, voters will turn away fro the Dems, not necessarily to Trump. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ricohoc Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 20 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: I agree that the people are sick and tired of the nonsense of the Dems constant whining for the past 3 years about Trump instead of doing their job and making America better. Every day the, IMO, farce in the senate continues the more, IMO, voters will turn away fro the Dems, not necessarily to Trump. Agree. "America First" doctrine marches on without Democrats; and the People see that the Democrats have voted against issues that are good for all Americans -- especially when it comes to security and safety for citizens. Democrats spent their entire first day of the trial trying to manipulate the rules of Senate trial. Three of Chuckie's amendments all voted down. The Senate isn't there to continue the House's job. They're there to hear the evidence that the Democrats have provided. One day down. Two more days to go. 4 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post MaxYakov Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, spidermike007 said: Evidence? Documents? Witnesses? Why on earth would we want a fair trial? I believe the senate and the GOP are going to pay a very heavy price for their nonsense, and their unwillingness to at least hear the evidence, come November. I think we will be looking at a democratically controlled senate, house, and executive branch this time around. And the GOP deserves that trouncing. The people are tired of the nonsense. Where did you get your U.S. Constitutional Law expertise, por favor? If you are a U.S. Constitutional law subject matter expert, you would know that impeachment is not a judicial court of law and does not operate under the same rules as one. This has purely been a political stunt and will go down in history as such on the face of the alleged "high crimes and misdemeanors" that the Democrats have fabricated. Due to this effort by the Democrats to perform a soft coup w/r Trump, he will go on to get a second term and they could easily lose the House as well. There are people who thought Trump could not get elected. Are you one of them? What skin do you have in this game? I have none but can, at least, reason and analyze what the Democrats are trying to do. Just watch Nancy Pelosi try to put together a coherent sentence. Trump will not get removed and everybody knows it, including the Democrats. This attempt to remove Trump was an action by Nancy Pelosi and her henchmen and will turn out to be "A Coup Too Far" and a stupid, delusional one at that. (if you get my drift). Edited January 22, 2020 by MaxYakov 2 1 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post spidermike007 Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 45 minutes ago, MaxYakov said: Where did you get your U.S. Constitutional Law expertise, por favor? If you are a U.S. Constitutional law subject matter expert, you would know that impeachment is not a judicial court of law and does not operate under the same rules as one. This has purely been a political stunt and will go down in history as such on the face of the alleged "high crimes and misdemeanors" that the Democrats have fabricated. Due to this effort by the Democrats to perform a soft coup w/r Trump, he will go on to get a second term and they could easily lose the House as well. There are people who thought Trump could not get elected. Are you one of them? What skin do you have in this game? I have none but can, at least, reason and analyze what the Democrats are trying to do. Just watch Nancy Pelosi try to put together a coherent sentence. Trump will not get removed and everybody knows it, including the Democrats. This attempt to remove Trump was an action by Nancy Pelosi and her henchmen and will turn out to be "A Coup Too Far" and a stupid, delusional one at that. (if you get my drift). Quite the opposite will happen. Due to his massive obstruction of justice, and his continued crimes and misdemeanors, he will not only lose the presidency, but the dems will gain a few more seats in the house, and gain control of the senate. It is called karma. It is called the law of just returns. 2 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Eric Loh Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said: I agree that the people are sick and tired of the nonsense of the Dems constant whining for the past 3 years about Trump instead of doing their job and making America better. Every day the, IMO, farce in the senate continues the more, IMO, voters will turn away fro the Dems, not necessarily to Trump. Trump begged for all his constitutional woes since day one. His mouth and hands move faster than his brain. He has no guardrails as all his minders resigned. Shouting on stage ‘Russia are you listening” or “China please investigate Biden” to releasing the phone transcript to using non restricted means of communication; he simply asked to be impeached and that only a tiny portion of his criminal acts. The people is Trump fatigue with his continuous shenanigans and will be reflected in the 2020 election. 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Nick Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Sujo said: Dont forget the evidence requested is not from dems but from trump supporters. So surely they would clear him. whats funny is that the dems are actually getting some evidence in whilst arguing for it. Don't worry: I sure don't forget that! There are other members on this forum who have a weaker memory than me! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Saint Nick Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said: I agree that the people are sick and tired of the nonsense of the Dems constant whining for the past 3 years about Trump instead of doing their job and making America better. Every day the, IMO, farce in the senate continues the more, IMO, voters will turn away fro the Dems, not necessarily to Trump. Numerous bills are in the Senate, brought their by Democrats, blocked and parked there by McConnel! 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DoctorG Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 hour ago, spidermike007 said: Quite the opposite will happen. Due to his massive obstruction of justice, and his continued crimes and misdemeanors, he will not only lose the presidency, but the dems will gain a few more seats in the house, and gain control of the senate. It is called karma. It is called the law of just returns. I am desperately trying not to get booted off TVF before the end of the year because I am soooo looking forward to revisiting these types of posts. 5 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sujo Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 3 hours ago, Kelsall said: So you admit the purpose of this whole charade is to influence the 2020 election. No. Its to hold trump responsible for his actions. Influencing the election is what his actions are foing, its a biproduct. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post johnnybangkok Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 4 hours ago, Ricohoc said: The investigation was in the hands of the Democrat-majority House. By placing an arbitrary time limit on their investigation to rush it through, the Democrats failed to call all the witnesses (Republicans were denied witnesses), subpoena all the documents (Republicans were denied subpoenas), and go through the courts to get all of their supposed "evidence" if executive privilege was claimed. Democrats were more interested in fabricating charges (which they did) and getting the ball rolling than being complete and thorough. Now they want the Senate to continue their sham with selective "witnesses" and documents. Drag it out as long as possible up to the election -- and even beyond. Having a stable full of weak candidates has caused Democrats to have to GET TRUMP BECAUSE TRUMP. The effort is all focused on damaging Trump as much as possible before the election. As for Schiff himself, he's probably the most intellectually dishonest politician that I've ever witnessed. Nadler, the walking septic tank, is too stupid to get out of the way. I wasn't exactly sure how extremely wrong someone could ever get in a single post but you my friend have now set the standard. At the time of the initial investigation, the Democrats tried to subpeona John Eisenberg, legal adviser to the National Security Council, his deputy, Michael Ellis, Robert Blair, a top aide to acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, Mick Mulvaney himself and Brian McCormack, an aide at the White House Office of Management and Budget. All on the instruction of the Whitehouse refused congressional subpoenas to appear at the hearings. This is even before we get to the likes of Mr. Trump’s former national security adviser, John R. Bolton; his personal lawyer, Rudolph W. Giuliani; and Mike Pompeo who could have all supplied key facts to the case. Documents were refused. Key facts ignored. There was no 'fabricating of charges', Trump absolutely abused his presidential power for his own political gain and by his actions above, obstructed congress by refusing to co-operate with the congressional inquiry. These are undeniable. The also don't just '....want the Senate to continue their sham with selective "witnesses" and documents', they just want the relevant wirtnesses and relevant documents to be preasented to ensure a fair Senate trial. This is of course is being refused by the GOP, literally making a mockery of 100's of years of US legal precident. Whether you believe or don't believe Trump is guilty of what he is accused of the more important battle going on now is how this will shape the US for decades to come. Does one man/party have the power and the ability to ignore congress, defy the Constitution and sidestep institutional norms that have been the backbone of US law for 100's of years just because it doesn't suit them to follow the law and their man is guilty as sin? Trump has done all of this to himself and it now is about how much damage the most toxic POTUS in living memory can do to the very foundations of US democracy. 3 1 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tippaporn Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 50 minutes ago, DoctorG said: I am desperately trying not to get booted off TVF before the end of the year because I am soooo looking forward to revisiting these types of posts. I'll be here with ya. So looking forward to it. But I doubt any of these liberal posters will finally accept the truth even at that point. They've already shot past the event horizon and there ain't no comin' back for them. 7 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ricohoc Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 "Trying" to subpoena witnesses includes going to the courts to overturn claims of executive privilege. Democrats were in too big of a hurry. They didn't bother. Hold the impeachment vote and move on. If those witnesses were important, then it should have been important enough to get a ruling. The list of Republican witnesses in the Intelligence Committee were summarily rejected by the Democrat majority. The DAY of Republican witnesses, that is even included in the Dem House Rules, was ignored and did not happen. Rejected by the Dem majority in the Judiciary Committee. The first day has passed without Democrats putting their case forward. If it's a strong case, present the case. If they can't/won't do that, there's no reason to entertain any witnesses to dig further. It seems that it would be beneficial to them to "show cause" for a need for more witnesses. To this point, the Democrat case is empty. Democrats are continuing their Stalinesque efforts to investigate the man to find a crime. I doubt that the Senate will entertain this foolishness. In the meantime, more amendments from the Delaying Dems have gone down to defeat. At least 4 or 5 so far. Chuckie says there are more amendment delays planned. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tug Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 Come on 2020 the vast majority want a real trial looks like that’s not gonna happen it will be reflected in 2020 enough of the fraud 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post newnative Posted January 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2020 Don't they realize that the more they try to hide the truth the more desperate--and guilty--he looks? And is, by the way. 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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