UK employers urge Johnson not to sacrifice services in EU deal

[bannork]

5 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

why on earth can't farmers do their business witout state support?

like most other private enterprises

 

FF

 

Because an awful lot would go bankrupt without support and then the UK would be dependent on food imports. Not good for the taking back control, sovereignty  slogans.

https://fullfact.org/economy/farming-subsidies-uk/

[TheDark]

21 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

why on earth can't farmers do their business witout state support?

like most other private enterprises

It's mostly due national security. While food and energy can be produced more affordably in overseas countries, these amenities are considered important for national security in case of emergency, war or pandemic. 

 

Each well functioning country wishes to keep a secure level of food productivity, to stay alive in case of current day multinational food exchange stops. 

 

Then again, the support we give to the farmers is also reflected how little do we pay for our foods. Without these subsidiaries, we would pay a lot more for our foods. 

 

If we think it's not fair, I have not yet seen a stupidly rich farmer, like I have seen a stupidly rich bankers.

 

So let's stop saying farmers are the issue here.

Edited February 26, 2020 by TheDark

[melvinmelvin]

13 minutes ago, bannork said:

Because an awful lot would go bankrupt without support and then the UK would be dependent on food imports. Not good for the taking back control, sovereignty  slogans.

https://fullfact.org/economy/farming-subsidies-uk/

so what?

 

[samran]

6 minutes ago, TheDark said:

It's mostly due national security. While food and energy can be produced more affordably in overseas countries, these amenities are considered important for national security in case of emergency, war or pandemic. 

 

Each well functioning country wishes to keep a secure level of food productivity, to stay alive in case of current day multinational food exchange stops. 

 

Then again, the support we give to the farmers is also reflected how little do we pay for our foods. Without these subsidiaries, we would pay a lot more for our foods. 

 

If we think it's not fair, I have not yet seen a stupidly rich farmer, like I have seen a stupidly rich bankers.

 

So let's stop saying farmers are the issue here.

I guess you’ve never met an Australian or Kiwi farmer. Not calling them stupid either. 

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, TheDark said:

It's mostly due national security. While food and energy can be produced more affordably in overseas countries, these amenities are considered important for national security in case of emergency, war or pandemic. 

 

Each well functioning country wishes to keep a secure level of food productivity, to stay alive in case of current day multinational food exchange stops. 

 

Then again, the support we give to the farmers is also reflected how little do we pay for our foods. Without these subsidiaries, we would pay a lot more for our foods. 

 

If we think it's not afraid, I have not yet seen a stupidly rich farmer, like I have seen a stupidly rich banker.

 

So let's stop saying farmers are the issue here.

yes yes, have heard this national security rambling since I was a kid,

think that view is largely down to very clever political marketing by farmers and their organisations

 

farmers represent a very series issue

they grab too much of national budgets

they do create political problems in many countries

they skew political debates and decision making away from logical paths

they enjoy an undeserved front seat in the political theatre

 

[samran]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

yes yes, have heard this national security rambling since I was a kid,

think that view is largely down to very clever political marketing by farmers and their organisations

 

farmers represent a very series issue

they grab too much of national budgets

they do create political problems in many countries

they skew political debates and decision making away from logical paths

they enjoy an undeserved front seat in the political theatre

 

Spot on. 
 

When people use the national security argument with respect to their industry, you know there is a lucrative pork barrel they are protecting. 

[TheDark]

12 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

yes yes, have heard this national security rambling since I was a kid,

think that view is largely down to very clever political marketing by farmers and their organisations

 

farmers represent a very series issue

they grab too much of national budgets

they do create political problems in many countries

they skew political debates and decision making away from logical paths

they enjoy an undeserved front seat in the political theatre

 

Have you ever spend an hour to think it through? If not, please do so now.

 

While it might sound like those centrists actually had a voice, when they see a huge problem ahead. It's not even that.

 

Do take a real time to think about food production, how each of us fill our stomachs, at the time when international relationships sublimate. 

[TheDark]

27 minutes ago, samran said:

I guess you’ve never met an Australian or Kiwi farmer. Not calling them stupid either. 

I haven't nor I have really met any other farmers really. My point is purely how countries and governments should plan their actions in a longer timespan period. 

 

Let's say that a definition of a good country is able to keep 5-10% of their population alive in case of major catastrophe.

[melvinmelvin]

13 minutes ago, TheDark said:

Have you ever spend an hour to think it through? If not, please do so now.

 

While it might sound like those centrists actually had a voice, when they see a huge problem ahead. It's not even that.

 

Do take a real time to think about food production, how each of us fill our stomachs, at the time when international relationships sublimate. 

have spent years thinking of that,

never understood why farmers enjoy their political front seats in so many countries,

completely undeserved

 

buy your food from the dark skinned guys in Africa, they deserve and need the business

 

farmers skew political processes

they play havoc with budgets (just look at EU and US and France)

they upset and complicate trade deals/arrangements

[melvinmelvin]

54 minutes ago, TheDark said:

 

Then again, the support we give to the farmers is also reflected how little do we pay for our foods. Without these subsidiaries, we would pay a lot more for our foods. 

 

If we think it's not fair, I have not yet seen a stupidly rich farmer, like I have seen a stupidly rich bankers.

 

So let's stop saying farmers are the issue here.

 

pay little for food? maybe in UK and LoS food is dead cheap, but that doesn't go for Europe in General

 

it is not rare that as soon as the hotten tots in Africa have learnt the ropes re how to make this and that

agricultural product;

(the learning has taken years and has been sponsored by zillions from Europe)

then, relevant European countries introduce FBT (fiscal barriers to trade) in order to ensure that the

produce from down south cannot compete with locally produced grub

 

 

[TheDark]

14 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

have spent years thinking of that,

never understood why farmers enjoy their political front seats in so many countries,

completely undeserved

 

buy your food from the dark skinned guys in Africa, they deserve and need the business

 

farmers skew political processes

they play havoc with budgets (just look at EU and US and France)

they upset and complicate trade deals/arrangements

You are from Norway? From a large country with few people to live there. 

 

To make sure your country will not become occupied again, would you rather pay for people to simply stand by and monitor the people around, or would you prefer to give subdiarities to the farmers, who are known to protect their ground from foreign influencers?

 

If countries are reduced to city states, like Singapore is, then there is no need to protect one's premises from foreign powers. That's however is not the case of of real countries with more land than they can fill with people. 

 

There is a good reason, even for the cityfolks, to support vast amount of land, used and monitored by the farmers. 

[Rimmer]

A couple of troll posts have been removed

[TheDark]

1 hour ago, samran said:

Spot on. 
 

When people use the national security argument with respect to their industry, you know there is a lucrative pork barrel they are protecting. 

Actually no. 

 

This is where I get in conflict with all-green supporters, who have tunnel vision and who are not able to see the larger view of life. 

 

This is also the point I wish to educate you, not to fall in to the simplicity trap. If you do so, your messages are no longer listened by those you wish to be listening. 

 

There is the stupid level of national security discussion. This discussion is talked to and  for rather simplistic people. The moronic followers, who will follow anyone with authority.

 

Then there is also the realistic, national interest talks, which are meant to be processed by the people with a lot higher IQ's. These ideas are not nationalistic, but more logical conclusions what should be done after <deleted> hit's the fan. 

 

Quite different cases. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by TheDark

[samran]

17 minutes ago, TheDark said:

Actually no. 

 

This is where I get in conflict with all-green supporters, who have tunnel vision and who are not able to see the larger view of life. 

 

This is also the point I wish to educate you, not to fall in to the simplicity trap. If you do so, your messages are no longer listened by those you wish to be listening. 

 

There is the stupid level of national security discussion. This discussion is talked to and  for rather simplistic people. The moronic followers, who will follow anyone with authority.

 

Then there is also the realistic, national interest talks, which are meant to be processed by the people with a lot higher IQ's. These ideas are not nationalistic, but more logical conclusions what should be done after <deleted> hit's the fan. 

 

Quite different cases. 

Let’s assume we are all the latter ????

 

My point is, let the market work. Farmers will still be growing stuff and doing what farmers do, but they will be based on market realities as opposed to chasing the subsidy.

 

A country either has the natural resources to grow food in abundance of it doesn’t. Others will only be able to grow certain things, and not others. 
 

 That is why you trade. The U.K. buys three thai bananas for every strawberry it sends the other way. 

 

If I am proved wrong, the sure, go back to throwing money at them. But I don’t think we will see farmers struggling if you took subsidies away from them.

[TheDark]

2 minutes ago, samran said:

Let’s assume we are all the latter ????

 

My point is, let the market work. Farmers will still be growing stuff and doing what farmers do, but they will be based on market realities as opposed to chasing the subsidy.

 

A country either has the natural resources to grow food in abundance of it doesn’t. Others will only be able to grow certain things, and not others. 
 

 That is why you trade. The U.K. buys three thai bananas for every strawberry it sends the other way. 

 

If I am proved wrong, the sure, go back to throwing money at them. But I don’t think we will see farmers struggling if you took subsidies away from them.

My point, really is, if you are pointed wrong you and many other people die. 

 

Government's responsibility is to make sure that you don't die, even if your prediction was wrong. 

 

Thats why you can personally make fast moves and the government hinders behind, trying to make sure that everything is going to be alright at the end of the day.

 

I'm personally for very fast movements, but if I think the problems in government level which includes taking care of other people, it's best to think these solutions throughout. It's other people's real life, we are talking about. 

 

Let's not forget, than in real politics, there are real lives in stake. No, not just models, but real people who put their clothes on today. 

[candide]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

so what?

 

Apart from themselves being bankrupt there may be significant induced effects;

- effects on the value-chain: upstream, the jobs that supply equipments, maintenance, etc... to farmers; downstream, the jobs that are besed on transforming local agricultural products

- localised effect in preserving economic activities at the countryside.

Farmers create a strong economic leverage effect

[TheDark]

I know I can not go to deeper in to these issues as there will be the guy who'll flag my post as not related and the moderators remove my post due single report.

 

That's how live is in today's world. Penetrating thoughts are no longer welcome. Vanity fair it is.  

[bannork]

Governments spend millions on defence. This is money down the drain if you look at it from a purely financial point.

'Nobody invaded us! What a waste of money.'

Of course, the reply is, ' But if we hadn't spent the money, we would be vulnerable to attack, it is essential for our survival.'

So it is with farming. If you don't subsidise the farms and let them all turn into caravan and camping parks, then who are you going to rely on for food?

 

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, candide said:

Apart from themselves being bankrupt there may be significant induced effects;

- effects on the value-chain: upstream, the jobs that supply equipments, maintenance, etc... to farmers; downstream, the jobs that are besed on transforming local agricultural products

- localised effect in preserving economic activities at the countryside.

Farmers create a strong economic leverage effect

yes they do,

in return for selling overpriced milk and carrots and and and .....

[englishoak]

Sky still falling guys ? when are one of you going to blame Cov 19 on Brexit as the UK economy slows along with all the rest of the world ? and it will. 

[UbonThani]

8 minutes ago, englishoak said:

Sky still falling guys ? when are one of you going to blame Cov 19 on Brexit as the UK economy slows along with all the rest of the world ? and it will. 

Started by climate change caused by white men. Therefore white men are evil. The Russians were behind it.

 

A teenage girl has all the answers.

[bannork]

1 hour ago, englishoak said:

Sky still falling guys ? when are one of you going to blame Cov 19 on Brexit as the UK economy slows along with all the rest of the world ? and it will. 

Does this mean the government's promises of 50,000 trained nurses, 50,000 custom officers (all trained up and raring to go on January 1st 2021), 40 new hospitals, and the 'levelling up' of the north, are all pledges that are bound to fail?

Less economic activity in Blighty-https://www.ft.com/content/bfac12d2-59ff-11ea-a528-dd0f971febbc

And why levelling up is so hard to do. https://www.ft.com/content/011b0c62-4cf1-11ea-95a0-43d18ec715f5

Eh up Ethel, I'm off to allotment, time to get greenouse up and running. All them nice cucumbers an tomatoes from southern Europe are gonna cost a lot more next year if this no deal goes through.

[englishoak]

14 hours ago, bannork said:

Does this mean the government's promises of 50,000 trained nurses, 50,000 custom officers (all trained up and raring to go on January 1st 2021), 40 new hospitals, and the 'levelling up' of the north, are all pledges that are bound to fail?

Less economic activity in Blighty-https://www.ft.com/content/bfac12d2-59ff-11ea-a528-dd0f971febbc

And why levelling up is so hard to do. https://www.ft.com/content/011b0c62-4cf1-11ea-95a0-43d18ec715f5

Eh up Ethel, I'm off to allotment, time to get greenouse up and running. All them nice cucumbers an tomatoes from southern Europe are gonna cost a lot more next year if this no deal goes through.

What are you on about ?  this gov is 2 months old... I think it might take a little longer than that to train people or build or all the other stuff promised... let alone recruit, you any idea how long 50k background/ security checks would take for customs officers ?  Any idea how long to train a nurse ? obviously not.... your comments are silly, there isnt any magic wands as you seem to pretend there should be... as usual your being disingenuous.

 

 

 

 

[TheDark]

19 minutes ago, englishoak said:

What are you on about ?  this gov is 2 months old... I think it might take a little longer than that to train people or build or all the other stuff promised... let alone recruit, you any idea how long 50k background/ security checks would take for customs officers ?  Any idea how long to train a nurse ? obviously not.... your comments are silly, there isnt any magic wands as you seem to pretend there should be... as usual your being disingenuous.

ERG de facto controlled government, got power when May got in to power after Brexit vote. So that's couple of year by now. 

 

Tory/Eton governments has been in power for a lengthier time. 

 

As mismanagement of national healthcare tends to hit mostly to elderly voters, evolution will take care of this problem.

 

In evolution we trust. 

[englishoak]

26 minutes ago, TheDark said:

ERG de facto controlled government, got power when May got in to power after Brexit vote. So that's couple of year by now. 

 

Tory/Eton governments has been in power for a lengthier time. 

 

As mismanagement of national healthcare tends to hit mostly to elderly voters, evolution will take care of this problem.

 

In evolution we trust. 

 

Seems like your wishing older people dead to me ... really ?  

 

Well lets look at that. Older people have a lifetime of personal exp both politically and economically, they arnt as easily bought, dont believe hype so readily and a lot more wealthy and life has taught them prudence is better than rash behaviour, In my lifetime the north has gone from pure Labour to mostly Tory, thats the older gen finally coming around to the  realisation that Labour and socialism has and would continue to impoverish them, age and personal experience is a bitter pill to swallow but its hard to deny over a long enough timeline. 

 

Fact...Birth rates have been falling for decades. By 2050 in the UK there will be more aged post 50 than under.. another fact, as people age they become more and more conservative not less.  Fact, people are living longer too and that is expected to continue.. The elderly demographic is growing double the rate of the youth.

 

The older generation also control the vast majority of asset wealth,Healthcare quality is doing just fine and better now than any time in history, that will continue to rise too.  Fact the older generation voting turnout is always much higher than young voters.. This matters hugely and politics will by necessity gravitate to where the voters are and policies they care about ..  its not students crying about free tampons or shouting in fields.  

 

Fact the bigger size of the voting block the older generation takes up, the less likely there will be a future Labour gov... especially one thats disappearing up its on behind. 

 

Unlike you I dont not wish for the demise of the old, you just sound bitter tbh. 

Edited March 1, 2020 by englishoak

[TheDark]

2 minutes ago, englishoak said:

 

Seems like your wishing older people dead to me ... really ?  

 

Well lets look at that. Older people have a lifetime of personal exp both politically and economically, they arnt as easily bought, dont believe hype so readily and a lot more wealthy and life has taught them prudence is better than rash behaviour, In my lifetime the north has gone from pure Labour to mostly Tory, thats the older gen finally coming around to the  realisation that Labour and socialism has and would continue to impoverish them, age and personal experience is a bitter pill to swallow but its hard to deny over a long enough timeline. 

 

Fact...Birth rates have been falling for decades. By 2050 in the UK there will be more aged post 50 than under.. another fact, as people age they become more and more conservative not less.  Fact, people are living longer too and that is expected to continue.. The elderly demographic is growing double the rate of the youth.

 

The older generation also control the vast majority of asset wealth,Healthcare quality is doing just fine and better now than any time in history, that will continue to rise too.  Fact the older generation voting turnout is always much higher than young voters.. This matter hugely too and politics will by necessary gravitate to where the voters are.. and its not students.  

 

Fact the bigger size of the voting block the older generation takes up, the less likely there will be a future Labour gov... especially one thats disappearing up its on behind. 

 

Unlike you I dont not wish for the demise of the old, you just sound bitter tbh. 

In reality, yes. I tend to wish the elderly people to pass away a bit faster.

 

The reality is that we are, like you expressed, become burdened by elderly people. They are using vast amount of healthcare system, collecting pensions, while not being productive parts of the society anymore. 

 

Naturally they tend to vote for things they think is beneficial for them in a short run as they no longer have view of the better, longer future. 

 

That's me, being realistic and logical. 

 

But if only the older generations would be interested of offering advices, while also allow younger generations to make their own decisions of their future, that would be great. Unfortunately it has not happened with the boomers, who got everything so easy, done by their parents, for them. 

[englishoak]

3 hours ago, TheDark said:

In reality, yes. I tend to wish the elderly people to pass away a bit faster.

 

The reality is that we are, like you expressed, become burdened by elderly people. They are using vast amount of healthcare system, collecting pensions, while not being productive parts of the society anymore. 

 

Naturally they tend to vote for things they think is beneficial for them in a short run as they no longer have view of the better, longer future. 

 

That's me, being realistic and logical. 

 

But if only the older generations would be interested of offering advices, while also allow younger generations to make their own decisions of their future, that would be great. Unfortunately it has not happened with the boomers, who got everything so easy, done by their parents, for them. 

At least your being honest I guess. 

 

Burdened ? I think not, rather it is often the other way around, it is they who often pay not just their way but for others too, all the way until the end and then passing on their wealth to those who much of the time probably have not earned it. Mostly selflessly and simply out of love and or duty. Consider this. 

 

Charities are greatly supported by the retired, both financially in donations and as a largely free work force, it is similar for the tourist and travel industry, a very large % outside peak school holiday season is dependent on the older generation travelling and taking holidays.  They also provide the care industry with demand and often pay in a lot for that care, providing jobs and careers to many. I think your probably not looking deep enough into their worth to society tbh. 

 

By the time someone is drawing a pension they have already spent the majority of their lives paying into the system, unlike the young who expect increasingly more before making that contribution over many years. As far as being productive I would suggest they are a very large part of the economy and continue to pay their taxes even when drawing a pension. They consume just like the rest, spending into the system a very large amount and much of the economy and various parts of industry benefit. Not to mention that a large part of deposits and large ticket purchases of the younger generation are both subsidised and paid for by them. Mortgage deposits would be one such example. They also often subsidise their young families, financially or as free child minders, mentors, teachers and personal support where the government cannot or does not. 

 

Im generation X myself and can appreciate your views having been through depressions and a hollowing out of industry leaving my generation a hard road to tread and jobs scarce for a couple of decades. It wasnt easy and a decent future in my youth seemed unlikely but in time things improved and as I have aged ive come to realise all I lacked was life experience, patience and hard work... in short the world owed me nothing  having not earned it back then. 

 

The boomer generation actually had little or nothing gifted to them by their elders, rather Boomers are post war children and enjoyed a time of great progress and under staffing in many new industries allowing them to enjoy a standard of living previously unheard of... i agree it spoiled them and this can be seen by their millennial offspring being similarly spoiled and consequently an entitled attitude. Maybe even a little jealousy but the world has changed and the youth of today will not have such an easy time but it is not the Boomers "fault" just circumstance and a failure to appreciate easy times breed weak offspring

 

The young have little experience and would imo left to their own devices succumb more easily to foolish ideology and rash mistakes, it is what a mess the 18th and early 19th century  got into starting with the French revolution and into the Russian etc etc. a hard lesson was eventually  learned by the end of the 2nd world war and with harsh experience comes consideration and that provided a mostly stable and hugely improved world for all generations to date since... The impatience and impetuousness of youth would it seem wish to reverse that. We see it in the west with this crazy ideology and obsession to create a "new world" when its stability is actually dependent on mistakes of the past being learned and to date for the most part has avoided repeating.  

 

We are a product of history not the present. The young are mostly unable to appreciate this until they experience life long enough to do so, sadly It has always been thus. 

 

Dont be too hard of the older generations, with luck and i hope good health you will be there one day. I expect with age, more life experience and perhaps family responsibility you will likely see things differently. 

 

I think the return to prudence and common sense is well under way and the old will for the coming decades hold sway over political decisions imo that is no bad thing.

 

Cheers.