Western expats and tourists a drop in the bucket

[donnacha]

2 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said:

What's all this anger about?

What anger?

The long extract you quoted is pretty straightforward. I shouldn't have to add smiley emoticons to make it clear.

I am saying that while most Thais are not inclined to think about how their economy got to where it is today, half a century of westerners deciding to invest their life savings in retiring here has played a roll in lifting up their poorest communities. The "sex workers" that Yinn and other middle class Thais are so dismissive of had no social welfare safety net. One of the reasons why Yinn's family could pay so little tax is because these hated farang were, year after year, covering the endless small expenses in many of these poor families.

I am also saying that it is economically foolish to jettison an entrenched market that has delivered consistently for over half a century. The idea of five-star Chinese tourist is, of course, more attractive to the Thai elites but, frankly, Thailand is not a five-star destination. Like most countries, it offers a specific compromise between cost and quality, and had built up an audience of westerners who accepted that compromise and reliably returned year after year. If they do manage to build up a Chinese audience, after the novelty wears off they will probably end up being just as careful with their money as the kee nok farang they replace, and roughly the same amount of trouble. Chinese millionaires will have better places to go.

No one is angry about the Thai capacity for self-delusion and bad decisions. Rolling your eyes at that stuff is just part of living here. It is a pity but, as things predictably fall apart, all we can do is shrug our shoulders and say "Som nom na".

 

[WalkingOrders]

2 hours ago, Yinn said:

I can not understand some your word. Sorry.

 

But answer for your last sentance... They not contibute=“give” to “my country”, they give to sex workers in my country and recieve sex.

Is a deal, not charity.

They not “give”, they “spend”. They only spend because they want sex. 

 

If they did “give”, I would be more kind. 

 

Some question.

1)If 100,000 of old foreigner, eg Arab, went to USA and start marry young USA sex workers, you believe “USA” should give red carpet for them?

 

2)Should USA people be happy about that Arab come help the sex worker?  Believe it help the “USA”, or will they just think they have only helped/contributed to a sex worker?

 

3)Should the USA make visa harder for other people because the Arab marry the sex worker not like other country people? 

 

4) Will the USA people give special respect to the Arab marry the sex worker, because he contribute to her?

 

5) Does the farang contribute to the sex worker in the USA, or prefer to contribute to sex worker in Thailand because is cheaper?

 

The OP talk about people overestimate some farang think wrong how important for “Thailand”. 

I know that TVF have member who marry the sex worker. So I not be popular to say this way. The sex worker must thank you sure. But Thailand must

thankyou for what?

 

They do it for sex, not because have wonderful heart. Think with penis, not the heart. Do they help poor old man? Or only young woman?

 

Our culture is not make someone lose face. If I see a guy with a sex worker wife I will not say like this. Impolite. 

Maybe that the reason the farang think it acceptable, and thai people think it ok or good. Because nobody will say to them. 

 

But I say what I think. On TVF. 

Sorry. It true.

Not married to a sex worker, but I care for my wife  her daughter (my daughter) from a previous marriage with a Thai man, who abanoned her, and I do take care of her elderly Mother and Father in Issan.

 

I am not a particularly virtuous man, I do this because these are my family. 

 

Oh and if my wife were to say "get lost" one day....and want me gone I leave all behind. I own no one.

 

And all should have the expectation that all you own here, short of your personal bank account if you have one, belongs to the wife if you split up.

 

No worries see ya later, is the only attitude to have. So if you bring a fortune to Thailand and buy a house in wifes name it cant be sold in a settlement. 

 

But hey  why worry. I have told my wife from day one she can call this over any time she wants

 So far so good. ????

[Selatan]

2 hours ago, moe666 said:

Just because some guy or woman stnding in line at any immigration office looks chinese or sounds chinese doesn't mean they are from china. Lets ty Taiwan, Singapore, and some from Malaysia. You will also see alot of middle eastern folks or those who appear to be from that region in line at CM immigration. There is a hodge podge getting services there now days and no there appear to be fewer westerns but how do we really know on average spending a few hours at immigration over the course of a day in a year. Trying to equate some grade population shift on those few hours spent at immigration would be a fools game.

Yes, I have asked this question before - how does a farang knew if a Chinese looking person is from China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malaysia or Singapore if he couldn't understand Chinese? Chinese Malaysians like me who are trilinguals (Mandarin+3 other Chinese dialects, English, Malay) can easily figure out where they are from from their accents and dialects.

[WalkingOrders]

9 minutes ago, donnacha said:

What anger?

The long extract you quoted is pretty straightforward. I shouldn't have to add smiley emoticons to make it clear.

I am saying that while most Thais are not inclined to think about how their economy got to where it is today, half a century of westerners deciding to invest their life savings in retiring here has played a roll in lifting up their poorest communities. The "sex workers" that Yinn and other middle class Thais are so dismissive of had no social welfare safety net. One of the reasons why Yinn's family could pay so little tax is because these hated farang were, year after year, covering the endless small expenses in many of these poor families.

I am also saying that it is economically foolish to jettison an entrenched market that has delivered consistently for over half a century. The idea of five-star Chinese tourist is, of course, more attractive to the Thai elites but, frankly, Thailand is not a five-star destination. Like most countries, it offers a specific compromise between cost and quality, and had built up an audience of westerners who accepted that compromise and reliably returned year after year. If they do manage to build up a Chinese audience, after the novelty wears off they will probably end up being just as careful with their money as the kee nok farang they replace, and roughly the same amount of trouble. Chinese millionaires will have better places to go.

No one is angry about the Thai capacity for self-delusion and bad decisions. Rolling your eyes at that stuff is just part of living here. It is a pity but, as things predictably fall apart, all we can do is shrug our shoulders and say "Som nom na".

 

Well, I agree with about all you are saying, but I don't feel the Thai are jettisoning Westerners, the fact that a few Thai are racist jerks, and the majority are fairly ethnocentric, perhaps frightened of Westerners to variable degree really does not bother me a bit. I still feel treated very well here....maybe I am just lost in my own bubble.

[Puchaiyank]

2 hours ago, Yinn said:

I can not understand some your word. Sorry.

 

But answer for your last sentance... They not contibute=“give” to “my country”, they give to sex workers in my country and recieve sex.

Is a deal, not charity.

They not “give”, they “spend”. They only spend because they want sex. 

 

If they did “give”, I would be more kind. 

 

Some question.

1)If 100,000 of old foreigner, eg Arab, went to USA and start marry young USA sex workers, you believe “USA” should give red carpet for them?

 

2)Should USA people be happy about that Arab come help the sex worker?  Believe it help the “USA”, or will they just think they have only helped/contributed to a sex worker?

 

3)Should the USA make visa harder for other people because the Arab marry the sex worker not like other country people? 

 

4) Will the USA people give special respect to the Arab marry the sex worker, because he contribute to her?

 

5) Does the farang contribute to the sex worker in the USA, or prefer to contribute to sex worker in Thailand because is cheaper?

 

The OP talk about people overestimate some farang think wrong how important for “Thailand”. 

I know that TVF have member who marry the sex worker. So I not be popular to say this way. The sex worker must thank you sure. But Thailand must

thankyou for what?

 

They do it for sex, not because have wonderful heart. Think with penis, not the heart. Do they help poor old man? Or only young woman?

 

Our culture is not make someone lose face. If I see a guy with a sex worker wife I will not say like this. Impolite. 

Maybe that the reason the farang think it acceptable, and thai people think it ok or good. Because nobody will say to them. 

 

But I say what I think. On TVF. 

Sorry. It true.

You are obviously obsessed with the western farang...especially American.  Your opinion, however jaded, is not shared by many of Thai people whose quality of life has been changed for the better because of the generosity of farang retirees.

 

How long have you been a sex worker?  Have you been badly treated?  Can not get a western farang to give you an extended contract?  Try getting a makeover and glamour shots to improve your chances...

[donnacha]

17 minutes ago, madmen said:

Bingo that's what I'm talking about lol. Doesn't matter really because fact is TV expats begging for respect don't respect thais so it's hypocritical. 

Your post is a perfect example of disrespect.. Everyone in the internet crime division is watching porn. Really? 

Have you ever been around Thai civil servants?

No one is "begging for respect". At most, people are noting the sadly consistent ability of the Thai government to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Many Thais actually feel the same way about their government, but it is not something they have any real control over.

It is like discovering a restaurant who make a nice Khao Man Gai, which you enjoy every day for months. Then, one day, they say they will only serve customers who bring their own plate. You don't want to carry around a plate, so, you stop going there. Occasionally you walk by and see that the restaurant is empty, apart from the owner sitting alone, looking sad. You ask "Do I still need to bring a plate?", and he nods, "Yes. Must"

Finally, one day, you walk by and the place has closed down. "Damn", you think to yourself, "What a waste. I really enjoyed their Khao Man Gai, I wonder what they were thinking".

As far as we can tell, farangs living in Thailand have always been a net positive for the Thai economy. In particular, we have pumped money directly into small local economies that derive no benefits from the golden circles and elites in the capital. We continue our spending in good times and bad. It has been, over a many decades, an arrangement that worked for everyone. It is not disrespectful to note that the current dismantling of that long-standing arrangement may be short-sighted.

 

Certain members of this forum grab any opportunity to signal their virtue. It is simply a form of attention-seeking performance art that has no relevance to the real issues of living in Thailand. I will respect the Thai government when they do something to earn my respect. Getting elected in an unrigged election would be a good start.



 

[WalkingOrders]

42 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Possibly but which group would you suggest contributes most to the Thai economy? - not saying that either make significant contributions overall.

I live right across the Street from a giant mall. Few foreigners are here. The mall sells tons of high-end goods. Watches, perfumes, electronics, household goods,  and no Westerners in sight. In my building young affluent Thai are driving BMW, and high end Japanese cars and trucks.

 

The answer is that Thai are contributing most. 

 

Yes tourism is a huge sector of Thai economy, but the owners, and managers, are primarily Thai. I notice that ordinary Thai believe that imported foreign professionals  employed, are more important then retired expats. Just my take. Could be wrong.

 

[Selatan]

I agree with Yinn, opening up factories contribute the most to the economy. It happened to Malaysia too. Malaysia used to be very dependent on exporting agricultural products such as rubber and palm oil. Average incomes went up by a lot after Malaysia went on an export industrialisation drive. 

[donnacha]

20 minutes ago, Selatan said:

Yes, I have asked this question before - how does a farang knew if a Chinese looking person is from China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malaysia or Singapore if he couldn't understand Chinese?

Their clothes, especially the young women.

[Selatan]

1 minute ago, donnacha said:

Their clothes, especially the young women.

That's true, the Mainland Chinese ladies are more fashion conscious. The Chinese Singaporeans and Chinese Malaysians tend to wear more casual clothes because they live in a tropical climate.

[ChaiyaTH]

14 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said:

I live right across the Street from a giant mall. Few foreigners are here. The mall sells tons of high-end goods. Watches, perfumes, electronics, household goods,  and no Westerners in sight. In my building young affluent Thai are driving BMW, and high end Japanese cars and trucks.

Actually most Thais that look for luxury goods fly to Hong Kong to get them cheaper. Not sure why they ever thought westerns would be interested in it.

Got nothing to do with having a budget either. Those young affluent Thai driving high end cars often on leases + not having to pay rent as of old money houses by parents.

Central BKK etc. to me is a bit cliche as it seems to be mostly a group of ten thousands with a lot of money, spending most of their time in the area,
then you easily get the idea that everyone is doing well and spending money in restaurants, cafe's etc. 
That while in reality for most it is once a month at MK restaurant in a Central mall.

Edited February 26, 2020 by ChaiyaTH

[Lacessit]

21 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said:

Well, I agree with about all you are saying, but I don't feel the Thai are jettisoning Westerners, the fact that a few Thai are racist jerks, and the majority are fairly ethnocentric, perhaps frightened of Westerners to variable degree really does not bother me a bit. I still feel treated very well here....maybe I am just lost in my own bubble.

It seems to be the Bangkok elite and hi-so's that are racist. That may be down to their fear of the ideas we may give a docile population.

Personally, I found the Thais I deal with to be very friendly and sociable, both male and female.

I'd agree we are a fairly small component of Thailand. Most of the leavers who have the delusion they were contributing to the Thai economy could no longer meet the more stringent financial requirements, and are rationalising their disappointment.

[donnacha]

3 hours ago, Yinn said:

They not contibute=“give” to “my country”, they give to sex workers in my country and recieve sex.

Is a deal, not charity.

They not “give”, they “spend”. They only spend because they want sex. 

I think you will find that, past a certain age, there is precious little sex happening in most marriages. Your consistent focus on sex suggests to me that you may be quite young and have not had many relationships.

If it was all so transactional, farang could save themselves a LOT of trouble and money by simply buying their sex at massage parlors.

Most of us have been married before in the west and, at this stage, we get married mostly for the companionship. Most of us do not marry bar girls but, rather, regular Thai women who have either had bad experiences with Thai men, or who are not of interest to Thai men because they have a kid or are considered too old.

As with marriages anywhere, some of them turn out badly, but most of them work out well if both the man and the woman have realistic expectations. Although the farang may be contributing more money (not always, and not in my case), a value is created for both that extends well beyond money. Life can be lonely and having a mature, stable partner who is happy to be with you is a benefit on multiple levels.

 

[WalkingOrders]

6 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Actually most Thais that look for luxury goods fly to Hong Kong to get them cheaper. Not sure why they ever thought westerns would be interested in it.

Got nothing to do with having a budget either. Those young affluent Thai driving high end cars often on leases + not having to pay rent as of old money houses by parents.

Central BKK etc. to me is a bit cliche as it seems to be mostly a group of ten thousands with a lot of money, spending most of their time in the area,
then you easily get the idea that everyone is doing well and spending money in restaurants, cafe's etc. 
That while in reality for most it is once a month at MK restaurant in a Central mall.

With respect the mall would be closed if Thai were not buying. I am 10 miles out of Central Bangkok, and you know I see a big mall in Ubon, too, and tons of new Trucks up there, and nice looking Thai homes, and some are doing quite well. Some of these litte fruit carts, and sumtam shops might make a fair bit considering....the rent.

[maxcorrigan]

21 hours ago, baansgr said:

TAT figures are available....Westerners still make a large percentage of tourists...what's the point of the post, I went to Jomtien immigration yesterday, was full of foreigners, not a Korean or Chinese to be seen....maybe the Chinese over estimate their importance...much ado about nothing really

That is true i went to Jomtiem IO last Monday 24th don't recall seeing any Chinese types there at all mostly it seemed to me to be Eastern Europeans this was at their marriage extension counter and being Monday morning it was banged out, but saying that we were in an out in 45 minutes, home visit today 27th took about 10 minutes!

[Airalee]

I usually see tons of poor Burmese and other Asian workers when at Changwattana.   Their clothing choices certainly don’t scream “I’m a rich Chinese big money spender”.  
 

Asians in general certainly are not known for “dressing down” like the “millionaire next door”.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/26/2020 at 5:58 AM, metempsychotic said:

You misunderstand me my disdain was for you and all others on here who think their experience is universal.

You have ZERO knowledge of my experience, and know nothing about me.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/26/2020 at 11:15 PM, baansgr said:

Thai women between 20 an 40 about 12 million....what percent are sex workers...that includes, massage shops, bars, restaurants, cleaners, Thai love links and Thai friendly etc etc etc...hel of a lot...

The number of sex workers in Thailand is a lot less than some farangs like to think. Of those that are, the vast majority never have sex with a farang.

The number is talked up by NGOs that want ignorant people to donate to save the poor sex workers, most of which are doing far better financially than their non sex worker countrywomen.

[thaibeachlovers]

23 hours ago, Yinn said:

Another member say before Thai men not permission enter gogo bar in Pattaya? 

I not know.

Maybe sex worker in every city in the world?

i not know.

Thai men are welcome to enter gogo. Most won't because gogo is not what they like.

Yes sex worker in every city on the planet, but usually not as obvious as in LOS.

[BritManToo]

22 hours ago, WalkingOrders said:

I am in Bangkok now and I wish I was out in a rice field... save save save.

I'm outside CM, bad air but decent views ......... no tourists, even when there were tourists.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

22 hours ago, WalkingOrders said:

In my area of Bangkok, last stop on MRT, I see maybe 2 westerners a day if I am out and about, and that is only if I am inside a mall, or catch them going in or out of my building. Teachers. No expat retirees I see living out here.

Given time more farangs will move outward from the center.

IMO most retirees would rather be castrated than live in Bkk. I spent many months living in the Sukhumvit area, but it's not a place I'd willing live in.

IMO the only thing better about Bkk than Pattaya is that the girls on the Skytrain are often DDG, and DDG girls are sometimes hard to find in Pattaya.

[BritManToo]

21 hours ago, WalkingOrders said:

Not married to a sex worker, but I care for my wife  her daughter (my daughter) from a previous marriage with a Thai man, who abanoned her, and I do take care of her elderly Mother and Father in Issan.

Me too ....... and this is after my wife has gone (my former Mil, my former wife's daughter, our son).

My (step) daughter has essentially been abandoned by both her worthless Thai parents.

I'm not even getting sex in return for my philanthropy, I have to pay someone else for that.

Edited February 27, 2020 by BritManToo

[rickudon]

How important are falangs to Thailand? Depends where you live. In Udon Thani province, given limited available statistics, I calculated once we contribute about 3% of GDP. On average about 5 times what an typical Thai person does. More than a drop in the bucket, although only a small glass full!

 

As for marrying sex workers, that is more of a legend than reality. Ok, some do, but definitely a minority. I only know one man who freely admits to doing so (he has been married for 15 years plus). All my farang friends found there wives on dating sites or met them in shops etc. Most of their wives were previously married, but a few of us teamed up with singles.

 

Working expats may contribute more through their work, but also many of them remit part of their income to home countries. They are here to make money, not help!

 

Russians and chinese have only been coming for a short time. Maybe in 20 years more of them will come back looking for wives ....... then we will see who helped the most!

[BritManToo]

21 hours ago, WalkingOrders said:

In my building young affluent Thai are driving BMW, and high end Japanese cars and trucks.

All purchased on credit with the smallest deposit and the longest repayment period.

It's a house of cards ready to fall.

Edited February 27, 2020 by BritManToo

[Gene1960]

I talked to a European hotel manager in Phang Nga and he said that he instructed his Thai staff not to use the words Farang /Falang between themselves when talking in Thai. A crazy sensitive foreigner wrote a complaint because he was sure that Farang is a racist term for Thais. 

[metempsychotic]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You have ZERO knowledge of my experience, and know nothing about me.

 

Actually that is not the case, you have  very forthcoming at sharing details  over the years.

[UbonThani]

54 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Given time more farangs will move outward from the center.

IMO most retirees would rather be castrated than live in Bkk. I spent many months living in the Sukhumvit area, but it's not a place I'd willing live in.

IMO the only thing better about Bkk than Pattaya is that the girls on the Skytrain are often DDG, and DDG girls are sometimes hard to find in Pattaya.

Castration wouldve saved me $$$$$$$$$

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, metempsychotic said:

Actually that is not the case, you have  very forthcoming at sharing details  over the years.

OK, you know a microscopic part of me. I'm not going to put everything of myself on a public forum, as that would be barking.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, UbonThani said:

Castration wouldve saved me $$$$$$$$$

If I could go back in time, I'd castrate myself. Now, I'd be rich and happy.

[UbonThani]

8 minutes ago, metempsychotic said:

Actually that is not the case, you have  very forthcoming at sharing details  over the years.

Plus we have people following your weekly moves.