Why do Thais only understand words pronounced and intoned perfectly?

[tgeezer]

One of my golf group has lived in the US and his nickname is Sam but when I refer to him as ซาม I get blank looks because his name is แซม in Thai. 

I was discussing this and discovered that Uncle Sam ลุงแซม is now Thai.  The person to whom I was speaking didn't know that it was an American expression for government and thought that the ลุง was invented by Thai people as a friendly way of referring to American individuals. 

I was asking the caddies if I could refer to the "mouth of the green",  she laughed and pointed to her mouth saying ปาก ปาก to show how stupid that would be.  I don't know what the areas in front of the green is called in English but after I pointed out that Thai has ปากซอย ปากน้ำ two caddies now agree that Thai has ปากกรีน! 

 

The point is that there are many reasons why sometimes anything less than accepted Thai is often not understood. 

As Ginboy2 says, tones don't seem to be that obvious to us, in fact they are more subtle than many of us realise.  We need to practise ก ก่ ก้ ก๊ ก๋ until we don't notice how we have achieved the correct tone in each case then the chances are that one wrong word will go unnoticed if you speak confidently.

I wish that I had spent more time 'out and about' making mistakes.  Has anybody else tried engaging security guards?  If you live in Bangkok you will see bored people at every turn in the BTS MRT and outside condos who are a rich source of authentic Thai.  

 

[BigStar]

11 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

And I do disagree. With respect, I understand why you make reference to the tonal aspect and I do know that precise use of the tones may be essential because of the differences the wrong tone can make. But that's not the point I'm making.

Repeating that point among the others that have been addressed doesn’t make the reasoning behind it any more logically correct or the clinging to it any less silly. It’s about like farangs' repeating the wrong words in a foreign language with progressive loudness as if that will make them correct or understood.

 

11 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

I am refering to that fact that Thai's don't seem to understand some of what I say yet their use of English is often very wrong.

Repeated illogical connection of different processes. Thais not understanding your incorrect Thai has nothing to do with their speaking English incorrectly. They may in fact not speak English at all. Is this "life ain't fair?"

 

11 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

The difference is that when they speak English poorly, I still understand them - in much the same way as I understand most foreigners in England when they attempt to speak English.

Yep. You and other naïfs have been told the reason for that repeatedly and you gave it in your first paragraph. But promptly forget it here:

 

11 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Why? Because my brain automatically analyses the word they've said and thinks of what they really meant - the context may help a lot with this.

No. Because how the speakers of different languages understand their languages is dictated by the rules of those languages. Your brain isn’t any better at “analysis" than Thai brains-“automatically,” too????--though that’s really your point, as it rationalizes why you shouldn’t need to learn to speak proper Thai: Thais should understand it your way. Note that the Chinese and Vietnamese brains seem to work the same way, so much less "analytical" than your brain. Why? You ignored that inconvenient point, but it wrecks your whole "argument."

Now, though it goes contrary to our favorite narrative here, esp for Brits, but Thais' not understanding farangs’ bad Thai isn’t because Thais are stupid, lazy, poorly educated, racist, or perversely mean. Conversely, farangs’ ability to understand poorly pronounced English isn’t because farangs are so smart, educated, analytical, and empathetic. Do try to get your head around that fact.

I feel like I’m arguing with a Flat Earther insisting the world is flat and should be flat because it looks flat when one gazes at the horizon.

Oh, obviously context helps. If you point to a buffalo and say koh (โข) which sounds like “very” then you’ll be given the “allowance” you crave. If lightning strikes your highly analytical brain while you’re pointing at that buffalo and you happen to say gòr (เกาะ) correctly—totally different word, totally different spelling, different soundS, totally different meaning--while pointing at that buffalo, you’ll probably still be given allowance with the thought that, “Hmmm. So in English, ‘island’ means ‘buffalo’.” ????
 

11 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

When I speak to some Thai's and get it wrong they just don't understand and don't even try to - as with the travel agent example in a previous post.

No point in trying to understand utter nonsense and mangling Thai to such an extent is SO annoying. What kind of stupid person would do that? Even if deciphered, it might encourage further nonsense. The context wasn’t sufficient and your pronunciation was just too vile for those Thais’ levels of “EngThai” comprehension. That was a suggestion that you either learn Thai before trying to speak it or find a Thai to speak for you. Good 'nuff?

Thais are familiar with other Thais’ slightly different pronunciations and accents and they can also hear the full context. All things are relative but relativity has its limits.

Comes down to it, you have no right or expectation of any right to determine for Thais what is understandable mispronunciation or adequate context for your own convenience. That’s part of the fundamental arrogance of your viewpoint.  

 

11 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

I stand by what I've said - Thai's expect me to speak their language correctly but rarely speak mine 100%.

Of course you do.???? We're deep into broken record territory here, man. But same misconception. Thais would like to understand you when you speak their language, and are often impressed & charmed when you do, but they can’t if you don’t speak it understandably according to the rules of the language. Your language has different rules making it easier to understand if spoken in various ways. Still, Thais can speak English with such bad pronunciations that you also can’t understand it. That's also relative to an extent--an extent that has its limits that you think you have the right to exceed. Trying to make some absolute rule is merely throwing out a straw man.

 

11 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

I would also question the use of 'tones' in everyday speech between Thai's.  I've often thought that they can't possibly be using the tones 100% because of the speed some of them speak.

Maybe better to avoid having any thoughts about the speaking of Thai for a while as you’re not competent to have any and won't listen to reason. Just focus on learning Thai properly without spending time thinking up reasons why you shouldn't need to and how unfair it all is. Then you can use the tones 100% properly at high speed, too. Or if not you can at least offer a comprehensible context.

 

11 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

People from all countries need to make allowances for others trying to communicate and I believe, mostly do. Without that there would be little understanding at all. 

People from all countries need to make allowances for the different rules of different languages and mostly do. Unfortunately some demand more than is possible for others to give according to the rules of their language. Such demands are weak, irrational, and used as an excuse for substituting bigotry and blame for the hard work required to speak the other language with sufficient competency. Fewer excuses and more effort will result in more understanding. One farang around here, after annoying and disappointing some poor Thais, has even learned properly how to say the Thai word for "island." Fortunately, our hapless farang often have Thai gf or wives to help. And perfectly fluent bilingual speakers exist who have put it in the required effort for critical translations.

[KhaoYai]

Its a complete waste of time trying to discuss this with you.  You are typical of those who think they understand and speak Thai 100%. Your arrogant attitude brought about by your self inflated ego is very apparent.

 

I have several Thai friends, one of whom is quite well educated and have held similar discussions on a few occasions with them. They mostly agree so I am confident that my points are correct. Sorry but I am obviously going to believe what a native speaker says over that of a non native.

 

You speak as if I am a permanent resident in Thailand and therefore should fully fluent in Thai. I am not permanent but I think I speak quite a lot more Thai than your average 'tourist' - I have to, I'm single and have property and vehicles in Thailand so have to deal with officialdom. When I do eventually make the move to live in Thailand, I fully intend to go to school and improve my Thai.

 

I am not one of those who thinks its the Thai's place to speak my language not mine to speak Thai. However, that is relative - I don't expect foreign visitors to my home country to speak English and pronounce every word correctly nor should the reverse be expected of me. What I do expect is that when I get a tone or pronunciation a little wrong, that the person I'm speaking to uses a little common sense and thinks "what could he mean" - instead of the blank looks I got in the travel agents that I mentioned in a previous post.

 

I also expect that when Thai's use an English word as part of their language - as with 'Central' department stores, that they pronounce that word correctly. Its Central not Centran.  Much the same as I would not change the way Mahboonkhrong (MBK) is pronounced - that's a Thai name.

 

I am talking real world situations - you are talking classroom. I don't live in a classroom.

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, BigStar said:

People from all countries need to make allowances for the different rules of different languages and mostly do.

Really? You actually believe that a tourist knows the rules of different languages?

[tgeezer]

5 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

 

 

I also expect that when Thai's use an English word as part of their language - as with 'Central' department stores, that they pronounce that word correctly. Its Central not Centran.  Much the same as I would not change the way Mahboonkhrong (MBK) is pronounced - that's a Thai name.

 

I am talking real world situations - you are talking classroom. I don't live in a classroom.

A little trivia. I hope not to offend but I see Central pronounced Sentran as a Thai name not an adjective. 
 I was told when MBK was built that it is named for two siblings Ma (and) Boon Krong. 
Road signs used to read “พหลโยธิน Phaholyothin” and for a long time I Said that.  When I learned that it was Phahonyothin I thought it rather arrogant of the Thais to expect English speakers to know that a closing letter L was pronounced N. The signs have since been changed but I can’t see Central changing. 
I wonder if we should really call the airport Suwannaphum when speaking English just because we can speak Thai, after all it is written in phonetic Sanskrit I believe, so we wouldn’t be wrong in saying Suvarnapumi would we? 

[amexpat]

6 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

I also expect that when Thai's use an English word as part of their language - as with 'Central' department stores, that they pronounce that word correctly. Its Central not Centran.

The mouth gets trained at a very early age. Some Americans in a Vietnamese class took six weeks to pronounce a word beginning with ng. During the war, newscasters spoke of nu yen cow key. Nguyen is the most popular name in VN. Can you say ngo? 

[Puccini]

On 2/27/2020 at 2:51 PM, KhaoYai said:

How about Central - the shopping centres. That's an English word but Thai's say Centran. That's fine too?

No Thai says Centran for Central.

[KhaoYai]

47 minutes ago, amexpat said:

Can you say ngo?

No I can't - I struggle with that but when I tell my gf that its Central - she actually says Central, she has no problem with saying that. She only says Centran because all other Thai's do.

[KhaoYai]

39 minutes ago, Puccini said:

No Thai says Centran for Central.

You clearly don't speak to many Thai's then.

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

Road signs used to read “พหลโยธิน Phaholyothin” and for a long time I Said that.  When I learned that it was Phahonyothin I thought it rather arrogant of the Thais to expect English speakers to know that a closing letter L was pronounced N. The signs have since been changed but I can’t see Central changing. 

Oh that one, I heard it said in 2 or 3 different ways by Thai's and the English version of the road signs must have at least 5 different spellings.

[Nakmuay887]

On 2/26/2020 at 10:20 AM, Captain Monday said:

This forum would be more useful If posters who have nothing positive to contribute to the topic would simply refrain from commenting instead of the thinly-veiled personal attacks disguised as sneering witticisms.

That's not how it works around here. It's the way of the road. 

[tgeezer]

6 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Oh that one, I heard it said in 2 or 3 different ways by Thai's and the English version of the road signs must have at least 5 different spellings.

I can't imagine that, but If you say so...! 

Thai speakers can be taught to say ..เลอ as a closing syllable but it requires practise, because even their 'live' endings don't have an audible vowel.  This discussion about the failings of Thais is rather arrogant because we are non giving credit for 'Sen'.  when 'Cen' is clearly 'Ken". As you have proved in your girlfriend's case, it is a question of motivation but if she said Central perfectly in Thai company it would not be Thai but affected speech and best avoided.  This is why I asked about how the airport's name should be pronounced when speaking English.  Or the King's name for that matter, should we say Pra Vajira.... or Pra Wajira....? 

[Orton Rd]

After 25 years I cannot always even get the cashiers to understand the numbers I give for 'de one cart' at Tops/Central or Big C membership card, I gave up trying to learn ages ago, they never understand so what's the point.

[tgeezer]

10 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

After 25 years I cannot always even get the cashiers to understand the numbers I give for 'de one cart' at Tops/Central or Big C membership card, I gave up trying to learn ages ago, they never understand so what's the point.

This is simply a lack of practise. Stand outside any primary school and listen to the kids reciting, language isn't innate. This topic is about our right to not practise and I accept that as your right. However there is a victory to be had for someone who enjoys the advantage of being understood in trying to motivate others. 

[Orton Rd]

Practice, been doing the shopping 3x per week for the past 13 years, not changed

[tgeezer]

3 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

Practice, been doing the shopping 3x per week for the past 13 years, not changed

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result isn’t practise.  That is how a golf Pro described my golf, so I know how you feel. I play better now though. 

[Orton Rd]

Mrs is a teacher of Thai language and she says I pronounce it correctly, so I sometimes think they just pretend not to understand

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

Mrs is a teacher of Thai language and she says I pronounce it correctly, so I sometimes think they just pretend not to understand

I've often wondered if that's the case.

[tgeezer]

4 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

Mrs is a teacher of Thai language and she says I pronounce it correctly, so I sometimes think they just pretend not to understand

Deafness is a possibility!  Don’t be offended but did you say one for หนึ่ง ?
khaoYai Are you running/ walking in the Khao Yai Funrun tomorrow by any chance? 

[keith101]

On 2/26/2020 at 12:39 AM, jastheace said:

I have no problem being understood in Ubon. yet struggle in Udon. weird.

 

Different dialect .

[Assurancetourix]

4 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

Mrs is a teacher of Thai language and she says I pronounce it correctly, so I sometimes think they just pretend not to understand

 

I will not make friends but I will write it;
in fact they are lazy; they don't want to make the effort to go and look in their heads for the other intonations to find out what we meant.

Quite the opposite of the Vietnamese whereas their language has six intonations, therefore one more than in Thai;
In Vietnam, if you say a word awkwardly, the person you are chatting with will pick you up and tell you how to pronounce the word exactly.
I have always liked this way of doing things; we are progressing very quickly.

[BigStar]

On 2/28/2020 at 5:31 PM, KhaoYai said:

You are typical of those who think they understand and speak Thai 100%.

How so? I made no such claim. Nor does one need to understand and speak Thai 100% to know the most fundamental principle regarding how you might ensure that a Thai can understand your spoken Thai: first, pronounce it correctly. It don't get simpler than that.

 

On 2/28/2020 at 5:31 PM, KhaoYai said:

I have several Thai friends, one of whom is quite well educated and have held similar discussions on a few occasions with them. They mostly agree so I am confident that my points are correct. Sorry but I am obviously going to believe what a native speaker says over that of a non native.

Talk’s cheap on the ‘net. We’d need to know exactly what was said and agreed to. Thais will often agree to be agreeable or to shut you up. However, anyone can agree that in both languages, one not need to speak perfectly to be adequately understood. But the thresholds are different as the rules are different. Pronunciation is far more important in a tonal language. That's just fact, pal.

 

So if, just as speculation, the threshold in English is 30%, that in Thai would be 80%. Your problem is that you think it should be 30% in both so that your gibberish can be understood without your having to make the effort of achieving the required standard. It’s a nonsensical point and will continue to be.

And you discovered this in practice when you told 3 Thai travel agents you wanted to go to โคชั่ง, “cow weigh.” Made no sense and they couldn’t take your money, which they’d like to have, without knowing where you wanted go.

Now, you can tell the travel agents, or any other Thai you try to communicate with, what your educated “friends” said (not a trained Thai language teacher), and that “cow weigh” means “cow weigh,” but you’re still not going to เกาะช้าง ("Koh Chang").

 

On 2/28/2020 at 5:31 PM, KhaoYai said:

You speak as if I am a permanent resident in Thailand and therefore should fully fluent in Thai. I am not permanent but I think I speak quite a lot more Thai than your average 'tourist'

I speak in no such way. I merely noted that your expectations are nonsensical. Nor did I imply anywhere that you should be fully fluent in Thai. I do say that whatever words you try to say in Thai should be understandable by Thais if you want to communicate with them using those words. I never knew this was some sort of far out, radical idea.????

 

If they don’t understand, then you haven’t pronounced the words close enough to the accepted pronunciations. And that's 100% your fault, not theirs.

 

On 2/28/2020 at 5:31 PM, KhaoYai said:

What I do expect is that when I get a tone or pronunciation a little wrong, that the person I'm speaking to uses a little common sense and thinks "what could he mean" - instead of the blank looks I got in the travel agents that I mentioned in a previous post.

And they will when you get it a “little” wrong. Problem is, you get it a lot wrong, too wrong, and then, despite having a notably analytical mind, childishly insist you didn’t, though you know next to nothing. There’s no way that “cow weigh” is going to be understood as “Koh Chang.”  Earlier you indicated you think Thais are saying, “Yoopun” for Japan. They never do—you’re not able to hear what they really say, have no ear for Thai sounds.

 

On 2/28/2020 at 5:31 PM, KhaoYai said:

I also expect that when Thai's use an English word as part of their language - as with 'Central' department stores, that they pronounce that word correctly. Its Central not Centran.

Another nonsensical expectation. Why aren’t you giving a French pronunciation to all the words you use in English that derive from French????? Oh--we're pretending that lil ol' Norman invasion never happened! Whoops!

Yeah, languages constantly borrow words from other languages and change their pronunciations and the spellings of those words to be consistent with their own language. Centran is a Thai word derived from English that you’ve mistaken for English, sorry. And when Thais use Centran while speaking an English sentence, they're speaking Thaiglish and hope you can understand that Thai word.

 

On 2/28/2020 at 5:31 PM, KhaoYai said:

Much the same as I would not change the way Mahboonkhrong (MBK) is pronounced - that's a Thai name.

Laughable. Actually you and most foreigners always change it by mispronouncing it while all the time imagining you haven’t. Note that Suvarnabhumi Airport (ท่าอากาศยานสุวรรณภูมิ) has now been incorporated into Brit English as Swampy. HUH? Apparently your strict rules aren’t widely shared.????

 

On 2/28/2020 at 5:31 PM, KhaoYai said:

I am talking real world situations - you are talking classroom. I don't live in a classroom.

Or ever even been in a Thai language class. No need.???? But in the real world, doing things your way according to the deep insights afforded by the analytical mind that requires no study, you’re left on the pier after three travel agents could make no sense of gibberish. Doing things my less gifted way, having deigned to practice the words I need until I get them close enough to right, I’ve long departed to Koh Chang. That's the way it's going to continue to be until you put in the work you're making excuses to avoid.

[BigStar]

10 minutes ago, Assurancetourix said:

In Vietnam, if you say a word awkwardly, the person you are chatting with will pick you up and tell you how to pronounce the word exactly.

Nope, friend of mine tried that in Vietnam, had a Vietnamese formally teaching him, too, and quickly gave up with exactly the same complaint that the Vietnamese were pretending not to understand him or too lazy to figure out what he was saying. In fact he just wasn't studying as he should. Often the case w/ expats. Language study is work and often not fun at all. They didn't come over to SE Asia to burst their butts learning something so very foreign and strange.

 

Much depends on the specific situation, context, the speakers/listeners, and how close the "awkward" pronunciation really was to correct.

[BigStar]

On 2/28/2020 at 5:34 PM, KhaoYai said:

Really? You actually believe that a tourist knows the rules of different languages?

Traditionally, the intelligent tourist, or experienced, quickly realizes when he's arrived in a country whose natives do not speak his language. When he first needs to communicate with one of the natives, the tourist with at least a modicum of intelligence looks in the "foreign phrase" section of his guidebook and reads the general intro to the language before he attempts to say the phrase needed. In the case of Thai, he reads about tones and timing and can't miss seeing them in the transliteration of the phrase in which he's interested. Rules.

 

Then he tries the phrase, following the transliteration that shows the tones. If he fails, he wisely realizes that he needs more practice, maybe a LOT more, preferably with a native speaker. He then points to the written phrases in his guidebook for the natives to understand and he's on his way. Others, of course, may blame the natives for their failures and remain on the pier. ????

 

The modern way w/ the internet & apps, w/ instant translations, makes it all so much easier. So the tourist simply uses the app that knows the rules, unless he wants to remain on the pier. I suppose if he uses an app that attempts to speak Thai with a strong Brummie accent that Thais can't possibly understand, he can blame the Thais, not the app. ????

 

[BigStar]

23 hours ago, tgeezer said:

 I hope not to offend but I see Central pronounced Sentran as a Thai name not an adjective. 

Exactly, to follow up on a point I made earlier. It's pronounced "Sentran" because it's a Thai name. Noun, not an adjective. The sound of the word was taken from the English word "central," but it has no meaning that overlaps in any way. It has no meaning beyond "name of a particular department store (short form)." 

 

That's what makes KhaoYai's contention so funny:

 

On 2/28/2020 at 5:31 PM, KhaoYai said:

Much the same as I would not change the way Mahboonkhrong (MBK) is pronounced - that's a Thai name.

when, accordingly, he should also be saying "Sentran," as the name of that store is actually สรรพสินค้าเซ็นทรัล and is pronounced as it's spelled. He not only changes "Sentran" but ignorantly insists his girlfriend mispronounce it as well:

 

22 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

when I tell my gf that its Central - she actually says Central, she has no problem with saying that. She only says Centran because all other Thai's do.

Poor gf, trying to please the man. That last irony, She only says Centran because all other Thai's do. is kinda sad, really. Thai name of a Thai dept store in Thailand.

[BigStar]

9 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

Mrs is a teacher of Thai language and she says I pronounce it correctly, so I sometimes think they just pretend not to understand

What usually happens is that a farang practices with "teach," finally says it correctly but then when out in the wild forgets it while thinking he still remembers and has got it right. Maybe doesn't use it often enough to retain it. Easy to forget things that are unfamiliar and we don't have much interest in anyway. Do the same myself.

[Orton Rd]

I have noticed it's mainly women who don't understand, men far less so and also varies from shop to shop, Big C being the most problems and Tops far less with either sex. Foodland never a problem.

[tgeezer]

23 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

Mrs is a teacher of Thai language and she says I pronounce it correctly, so I sometimes think they just pretend not to understand

Orton Rd. I wonder if you say numbers too quickly. I spent ages practising when I found that I couldn’t say ห้า ห้า ห้า ห้า properly without a definite pause between each number to re-engage the brain. Repeating one number is good practise.  สี่ is a common number on the golf course but still( I am expert of course! ) the occasional สี ‘pops out’. 
The hotel this weekend provided little bottles of red shampoo and on leaving I told the room boy, นำ้บ้วมปากไม่คอยอะอร่อย it took a few seconds of concern on his part but he got it.  Providing ‘delicious’ is not his job so that worked. 
This may seem off topic but the point is that if you get the context right, very often Thais will try to understand. 

[tgeezer]

Said นำ้ยาบ้วน not นำ้บ้วน . นำ้ไม่อร่อย doesn’t make sense.

[KhaoYai]

On 2/29/2020 at 11:36 AM, BigStar said:

I speak in no such way. I merely noted that your expectations are nonsensical. Nor did I imply anywhere that you should be fully fluent in Thai.

That sentence says all I need to know that this discussion is pointless. I made a point that Thai's pronounce many English words incorrectly but I usually know what they mean - yet I'm expected to speak the Thai language correctly of the just don't understand.  How difficult is it to think, "what is close to that, what could he actually be meaning"? When Thai's say an English word wrong I compute it in milliseconds.

 

Thai name of a Thai dept store in Thailand.  The registered name of which is Central Pattana Public Company Ltd and who's signage and branding is all in English. I can also assure you that my gf (now wife) was not trying to please me at all - we both try to help each other with languages.

 

You jumped to the Thai's defence as if I was just Thai bashing, which I most definitely was not - I was stating a fact. Having discussed my thoughts with Thai's, your attempts to 'put me in my place' fell on deaf ears in my case. You clearly don't recognise that arrogance in your statements and won't even accept that Thai's often pronounce words incorrectly so there's no point in discussing the matter further. You are fully entitled to  believe what you want and I'll do the same.