Third World In Whose Eyes?

[canuckamuck]

Discussions on this forum often use the term ‘third world’. Formerly this term was part of a description of world political divisions. Western bloc countries, Nato aligned = first world. Eastern bloc countries, Warsaw pact aligned = second world. The remaining non aligned countries: Africa, South America, and South Asia (excluding Vietnam) = third world. These old divisions are no longer useful or accurate.

Currently the term 'third world' has come to imply poverty stricken or sub modern standards rather than political alignment. Although truly the word makes little sense any more. Thailand is actually considered a newly industrialized country.

Many people on Thai Visa claim Thailand is third world. I find that a bit strong, as my life here is often more enjoyable than it is in North America. If I chose to I could lead a fairly western lifestyle here; if I had the means, a life of total luxury.

I feel that the use of the term 'third world' in these discussions is usually quite flippant and intended to be derogatory.

I am curious about what makes people think Thailand is 'third world', and what (for the lack of a better term) is reasonably modern.

I will start with two Items:

Reasonably Modern -Hospitals

Third World -Sickly street dogs

[DrFisher]

Opinions are like you know what everyone has one. Thailand has the status of "developing nation" given by the powers that be and give such titles and status. I must agree with you though I fail to see why people on this forum love to belittle and abuse Thailand and I get quite frustrated with some of the ignorant posts.

[jeebusjones]

I think the currently used words are "developed" nations and "developing" nations. There are only a handful of "developed" nations in the world, mainly in Europe and North America. In Asia, Japan, Singapore and Korea are generally accepted as "developed" countries.

Thailand is technically considered a "Newly Industrialized Country," meaning that it is more developed than, say, Botswana, but not as developed as (some) countries in the West.

I would agree that the term "third world" is derogatory, but I'm not one to squabble over the political corrrectness of words. It's like "retard" (now unacceptable to say) and "mentally challenged," the currently accepted term. Or "black" and "African American."

There is no question that Thailand is not as developed as, say, the US, Australia, Sweden, Korea, etc... It seems silly to try to argue that point, and I don't think you are.

Thailand is a very, very poor country. There have been numerous discussions about the average Thai salary, and they are generally very low.

True, the hospitals are reasonably modern, but only the private hospitals are really on par with Western standards. These hospitals are not open to the majority of the population.

Infrastructure in Thailand is not great. While the road system here is better than, say, India, they still do not meet Western standards. Giant potholes are everywhere. In Bangkok, there are simply not enough roads for a city with such a large population.

Until only 10 years ago, there wasn't any truly effective form of public transportation to speak of in the city. No BTS, no subway. I believe the elevated tollways have also been built in the last ten years as well.

Law enforcement here is a joke. This is a very real measure of a nation's developmental status. Police here are generally corrupt, I think mainly because their salaries are so low. If the police were actually paid a decent wage, they wouldn't be forced to take bribes from very car they stop. But again, since Thailand is a very poor nation, the government cannot afford to pay the police a reasonable wage.

These are the only things I can think of now, but I'm sure there are more.

I would agree that Thailand is reasonably well developed. It is not fair to put Thailand in the same category as India or Africa or Bolivia. But it is also not accurate to place Thailand in the same category as fully developed countries in the West.

Edited April 8, 2007 by jeebusjones

[DrFisher]

I agree with you 100% however as far as the wages go the average Thai person can afford food and shelter not to mention half decent living conditions as opposed to my fellow countrymen that make $5.35 per hour and even if they manage to get health care they can not afford the medication prescribed to them which is sickening in a country that self proclaims it is "the greatest nation".

[taxexile]

the endemic corruption in the police , the army , and amongst elected officials and the poor quality of the legal process here , the lack of a free press and media , and the lack of transparency in just about everything is what makes this a third world country.

skyscrapers and 10 lane highways count for very little when the police can murder and not be held accountable , local and national politicians are able to form policy and award contracts to further their own greed and are rarely held accountable , and the rule of law is not enforced uniformly.

[ProThaiExpat]

The elimination of corruption would go a long way into helping Thailand become "developed".

However, I just wonder how far any nation can go toward eliminating corruption. There are many examples of corruption in the West, it seems to me, it is just less blatant.

Yet, Asia speaks so often about corruption at every level. Why isn't it spoken of more often in the West?

[ThaiGoon]

Thailand is a very, very poor country.

I believe the elevated tollways have also been built in the last ten years as well.

Just a couple of corrections. Firstly, Thailand's GDP per Capita is $9,100 (2006 est.) per CIA factbook. And that's considered a mid income country, not a "very very poor country." And secondly, the first stage expressway in Bangkok was completed and opened in 1987.

Anyway, I generally agree with almost everything that's been said by everyone.

[jeebusjones]

Thailand is a very, very poor country.

I believe the elevated tollways have also been built in the last ten years as well.

Just a couple of corrections. Firstly, Thailand's GDP per Capita is $9,100 (2006 est.) per CIA factbook. And that's considered a mid income country, not a "very very poor country." And secondly, the first stage expressway in Bangkok was completed and opened in 1987.

Anyway, I generally agree with almost everything that's been said by everyone.

That GDP is PPP, purchasing power parity. They don't actually earn that much money.

But yes, it is still a mid-income country. It's on par with countries like Mexico and Costa Rica but under Malaysia.

[Mid]

the endemic corruption in the police , the army , and amongst elected officials and the poor quality of the legal process here , the lack of a free press and media , and the lack of transparency in just about everything is what makes this a third world country.

skyscrapers and 10 lane highways count for very little when the police can murder and not be held accountable , local and national politicians are able to form policy and award contracts to further their own greed and are rarely held accountable , and the rule of law is not enforced uniformly.

Correct

sadly

mid

[TheWalkingMan]

Yet, Asia speaks so often about corruption at every level. Why isn't it spoken of more often in the West?

I think you answered your own question. There is corruption in the west, but it seems to be limited to more of the upper income brackets. I am speaking of politicians, kickbacks etc. In some areas of Asia, it seems that corruption has run through all levels of society. From the local copper turning his head for a few baht to the big boys taking a cut on seemingly all that is in their field of vision.

TheWalkingMan

[cdnvic]

I see it as more a state of mind than anything. The banana republic kind of thinking by officialdom, the lack of personal initiative to improve things outside one's own life.

[ThaiGoon]

That GDP is PPP, purchasing power parity. They don't actually earn that much money.

But yes, it is still a mid-income country. It's on par with countries like Mexico and Costa Rica but under Malaysia.

Thats' right. A mid income country, not "a very very poor country."

[taxexile]

Why isn't it spoken of more often in the West?

because it isnt endemic. yes it exists , but not to the huge extent it does here.

because it isnt the natural way of doing things like it is here. kickbacks are part of life here.( i was told recently that spare parts for aircraft made by a western company are 20% more expensive to the thais than to any other country , because of illegal kickbacks and commissions to the purchasers here. its stuff like that that keeps the people so poor here , starves the schools and hospitals of money.)

because there are laws against it in the west , and when it is discovered then the law is implemented and the culprits punished , not only punished but publicly named and shamed , the face concept , which is used as a protection here , just doesnt exist in the west. disgrace and humiliation at the hands of the merciless and totally free press is the norm there.

[canuckamuck]

I see it as more a state of mind than anything. The banana republic kind of thinking by officialdom, the lack of personal initiative to improve things outside one's own life.

So you are defining a developed country as one that develops at least some, unselfish policies.

I think you are right.

It is interesting to note that it is the old western bloc countries that show this trait. It could be the term first world has a deeper meaning.

[Mid]

because there are laws against it in the west , and when it is discovered then the law is implemented and the culprits punished , not only punished but publicly named and shamed , the face concept , which is used as a protection here , just doesnt exist in the west. disgrace and humiliation at the hands of the merciless and totally free press is the norm there.

listen up people , tax is on a roll ,

well said again

mid

[katom]

The problem is only one..as somebody mention already :

-Corruption..in all the levels.

-pixs of money.

-money go to private hands.

-of course they want the new vigo...

-little money goes for "developing the country".

-shut down the screens and keep people afraid of talking/complain.

= BINGO ,today's situation..the biggest tourist country with huge income from tourism and other not less important place in the global economy and production .. looks like this.

Its all about money ..

I love this country..and hate to see it go this way...

[peter991]

Law enforcement here is a joke. This is a very real measure of a nation's developmental status. Police here are generally corrupt, I think mainly because their salaries are so low. If the police were actually paid a decent wage, they wouldn't be forced to take bribes from very car they stop. But again, since Thailand is a very poor nation, the government cannot afford to pay the police a reasonable wage.

I have often wondered WHY salaries of government workers so low. What happens to the VAT added to almost everything?

Thailand is spending (wasting?) millions of baht daily propping up its currency. This money could be better used to pay decent salaries. THEN - clamp down on bribes and corruption.

Peter

[Jimjim]

There is much wealth in Thailand. It's not very poor, but like most countries, the wealth is not spread around enough. I would call it poor, but "very" poor would be an overstatement.

I agree that 3rd world is an outdated term and misused these days, even by the media. It'd probably be most accurate to call Thailand a developing country.

Edited April 8, 2007 by Jimjim

[buriramboy]

i think Thailand falls into 2 catagories, on the one hand you have places like Bangkok, Pattaya and the islands that are pretty much developed all with a reasonable infrastructure, and unfortunately a lot of visitors to Thailand will only see these places, on the other hand you have isaan, where in a lot of places there is extreme poverty comparable to so called 'third world countries'. And the sad thing is, the situation in Isaan is never likely to dramatically change anytime soon.

Another point i take issue with, are GDP figures and average wage figure, while the stated figures are probably correct, just look at how they are worked out; say 1 person earns a $billion a year and 1,000,000 people earn only a $1000 a year then the average is $10,000 a year per person when in reality only 1 person is earning this.

My point is, i find it hard to catagorize Thailand, looking at the 2 extremes you could make a good case to label Thailand as anything.

[ColPyat]

Just a couple of corrections. Firstly, Thailand's GDP per Capita is $9,100 (2006 est.) per CIA factbook. And that's considered a mid income country, not a "very very poor country."

That doesn't say really that much, especially when looking at wealth distribution. While the small upper, and the slightly larger upper middle class have very good standards of living en par with fully developed nations, the lower middle classes an acceptable standard of living, you still have a significant sector of society that is impoverished, the lowest 10% live on family income of less than 500 US$ a year, often being forced to gather for food in the forest over long periods of the year when agricultural wage labor is not available.

No, Thailand as a whole is not what we would imply with a condition of "third world", but in certain sectors of society it definitely does have the problems typical for what we associate with a "third world" country.

It is always difficult to classify countries so roughly into generalizations. Several posters here have brought the US as an example, being the richest and most powerful country on earth. But in terms of poverty, wealth distribution, health service, education and social justice the US definitely lags far behind Scandinavian countries, which are maybe the top in those terms worldwide.

[griser]

Thailand IS a third world country, the only place in thailand that doesnt have grinding poverty is Bangkok and some areas of bangkok are affected as well. ever look behind the buildings and walls and see the slums?

90 percent of thailand has grinding poverty, THATS what defines third world

Greg

[canuckamuck]

This thread was intended as a comparison of good and bad, but as usual those who have nothing good to say usually speak twice as loud. So here is a little balance. I have spent the last four years traveling around Asia. I have spent time in many slums, and I have had an opportunity to sample some of the good things as well. I know for a fact, Thailand is a rare gem among Asian nations.

Truly, coming back to Thailand is always refreshing. The reasons:

The personal freedom, the availability of good and tasty nutrition, people with a sense of humor, excellent transportation (the highways are mostly very good). There is access to outside media, I have high speed internet, I can get my computer fixed in an hour, I can walk down the street at night with relative ease. I can buy any kind of car I want, I can criticize the government, I can follow and discuss whatever religion I please, I am not afraid of the police. These are not third world characteristics. These are not things true third world nations get to enjoy; in fact many developed nations are missing most of these benefits.

[ColPyat]

This thread was intended as a comparison of good and bad, but as usual those who have nothing good to say usually speak twice as loud. So here is a little balance. I have spent the last four years traveling around Asia. I have spent time in many slums, and I have had an opportunity to sample some of the good things as well. I know for a fact, Thailand is a rare gem among Asian nations.

Truly, coming back to Thailand is always refreshing. The reasons:

The personal freedom, the availability of good and tasty nutrition, people with a sense of humor, excellent transportation (the highways are mostly very good). There is access to outside media, I have high speed internet, I can get my computer fixed in an hour, I can walk down the street at night with relative ease. I can buy any kind of car I want, I can criticize the government, I can follow and discuss whatever religion I please, I am not afraid of the police. These are not third world characteristics. These are not things true third world nations get to enjoy; in fact many developed nations are missing most of these benefits.

That is very nice what 'you' can all do in Thailand. But please don't mistake 'your' personal enjoyment here with the difficulties of the average Thais, which are often diametrically opposed to 'your' experience.

20 years ago i have also traveled around several years in Asia, which was a great time, but i only came to understand when i changed from this rather egotistic lifestyle into facing daily problems and challenges by being married here to a woman from the poorest 10% of the country.

Yes, 'I' have a great lifestyle here, 'I' can do here things i could not dream of doing in the west, and for much less money. Most Thais though can only dream of doing that.

Personally, i don't think that my great lifestyle here has any relevance to how we would classify Thailand - the only relevance here is the life of the average Thais.

Edited April 8, 2007 by ColPyat

[buriramboy]

This thread was intended as a comparison of good and bad, but as usual those who have nothing good to say usually speak twice as loud. So here is a little balance. I have spent the last four years traveling around Asia. I have spent time in many slums, and I have had an opportunity to sample some of the good things as well. I know for a fact, Thailand is a rare gem among Asian nations.

Truly, coming back to Thailand is always refreshing. The reasons:

The personal freedom, the availability of good and tasty nutrition, people with a sense of humor, excellent transportation (the highways are mostly very good). There is access to outside media, I have high speed internet, I can get my computer fixed in an hour, I can walk down the street at night with relative ease. I can buy any kind of car I want, I can criticize the government, I can follow and discuss whatever religion I please, I am not afraid of the police. These are not third world characteristics. These are not things true third world nations get to enjoy; in fact many developed nations are missing most of these benefits.

while your comments maybe true for you and your lifestyle, for rural Isaan your comments are so out of touch, the roads are some of the worst i have ever come across, and with whole families living on 2,000 baht a month, buying a car ain't really an option. Again even buying a computer is never going to be an option for many of these people, the education in the village schools is not the same as the kids receive in Bangkok and because of lack of resources most kids will leave early with no qualifications and be forced to do manuel labour for the rest of their lives unless they get lucky. For those who have money Thailand is truly a great place, but for those Thais born with nothing in rural Isaan, a life time of poverty is nearly guaranteed.

[canuckamuck]

This thread was intended as a comparison of good and bad, but as usual those who have nothing good to say usually speak twice as loud. So here is a little balance. I have spent the last four years traveling around Asia. I have spent time in many slums, and I have had an opportunity to sample some of the good things as well. I know for a fact, Thailand is a rare gem among Asian nations.

Truly, coming back to Thailand is always refreshing. The reasons:

The personal freedom, the availability of good and tasty nutrition, people with a sense of humor, excellent transportation (the highways are mostly very good). There is access to outside media, I have high speed internet, I can get my computer fixed in an hour, I can walk down the street at night with relative ease. I can buy any kind of car I want, I can criticize the government, I can follow and discuss whatever religion I please, I am not afraid of the police. These are not third world characteristics. These are not things true third world nations get to enjoy; in fact many developed nations are missing most of these benefits.

That is very nice what 'you' can all do in Thailand. But please don't mistake 'your' personal enjoyment here with the difficulties of the average Thais, which are often diametrically opposed to 'your' experience.

20 years ago i have also traveled around several years in Asia, which was a great time, but i only came to understand when i changed from this rather egotistic lifestyle into facing daily problems and challenges by being married here to a woman from the poorest 10% of the country.

Yes, 'I' have a great lifestyle here, 'I' can do here things i could not dream of doing in the west, and for much less money. Most Thais though can only dream of doing that.

Personally, i don't think that my great lifestyle here has any relevance to how we would classify Thailand - the only relevance here is the life of the average Thais.

Using my self as an example is a completely rational and logical comparison.

I was talking about things that I (as a foreigner) can do here, but have difficulty doing in other places because of the oppressive governments or crippled economies. BTW my wife is also from the same bottom 10% as yours. She couldn’t even finish school because at 13 she had to go get a job in town.

People, including my hill tribe in-laws are happier and healthier, than the people from say Nepal, Cambodia, or Pakistan. This is a superior place to live, by non material standards (quality of life), this is why people fight so hard to get a Visa. Not so many line-ups at the immigration counters in Laos lately.

[canuckamuck]

while your comments maybe true for you and your lifestyle, for rural Isaan your comments are so out of touch, the roads are some of the worst i have ever come across, and with whole families living on 2,000 baht a month, buying a car ain't really an option. Again even buying a computer is never going to be an option for many of these people, the education in the village schools is not the same as the kids receive in Bangkok and because of lack of resources most kids will leave early with no qualifications and be forced to do manuel labour for the rest of their lives unless they get lucky. For those who have money Thailand is truly a great place, but for those Thais born with nothing in rural Isaan, a life time of poverty is nearly guaranteed.

Of course there are some bad roads, but many of the roads are fantastic. The motorways are marvelous, and so are many of the main highways. You guys should check out the crap we have to drive on in Canada. Need a 4x4 to travel parts of the #1.

As far as buying a computer never being an option, that’s not true, I have seen people come out of all sorts of tough circumstances to reach a better standard of living. My wife found a way to teach herself English, and then managed to get accepted into two foreign run colleges long before she met me. She receives a degree next month. There are several others I know with initiative that are breaking out of the poverty mindset. If this was Cambodia for example, that is much less likely to happen.

The advantages are here, but it takes a self starter to realize it. It is the same the world over.

[cdnvic]

Why isn't it spoken of more often in the West?

the face concept , which is used as a protection here , just doesnt exist in the west.

I would say it does, but the responsibility to save face rests with the individual who must avoid doing something stupid, rather than counting on everyone around him pretending he didn't.

Edited April 8, 2007 by cdnvic

[ThaiGoon]

Thailand IS a third world country, the only place in thailand that doesnt have grinding poverty is Bangkok and some areas of bangkok are affected as well. ever look behind the buildings and walls and see the slums?

90 percent of thailand has grinding poverty, THATS what defines third world

Greg

Not according to the Gini coefficient:

Gini coefficient, income distribution by country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

And if we used your definition of third world, then the USA is as third world as Thailand (look at the map.)..while the UK is worse than India and slightly better than Thailand.

Edited April 8, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[cdnvic]

Thailand IS a third world country, the only place in thailand that doesnt have grinding poverty is Bangkok and some areas of bangkok are affected as well. ever look behind the buildings and walls and see the slums?

90 percent of thailand has grinding poverty, THATS what defines third world

Greg

Not according to the Gini coefficient:

Gini coefficient, income distribution by country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

And if we used your definition of third world, then the USA is as third world as Thailand (look at the map.)

Got any harder figures than a wikimap?

Edited April 8, 2007 by cdnvic

[griser]

Don't know what you just read there, but Gini seems to support me on this. heh

Greg

Edited April 8, 2007 by griser