Explainer: Why are malaria pills being used against coronavirus?

[atyclb]

16 minutes ago, rabas said:

March 28, 202  1:24AM

Debate Ends Over Chloroquine as France Officially Sanctions Usage

"Days after beginning a large scale double blinded trial, the so called gold standard, France has now reached the conclusion chloroquine is recommended to treat corona. "

 

"In America considerable politics has developed over chloroquine,"

 

 

for some on all levels of this forum the overriding concern is not whether the drug may be effective against covid-19 but that it was touted by their arch enemy trump 

Edited April 1, 2020 by atyclb

[lannarebirth]

2 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

for some on all levels of this forum the overriding concern is not whether the drug may be effective against covid-19 but that it was touted by their arch enemy trump 

 

I've got no dog in this fight other than to highlight institutional failures, which are imbedded in Washington now and started before this presidency. That said, what I've read about this particular medication is that it has some efficacy with some patients if taken in conjunction with other medications. In some patients it has had an adverse reaction and they are removed from it immediately. I have also read that it was prescribed for some Lupus patients that now cannot find it anywhere given the run on it and their lives are now in jeopardy as well.

[bristolboy]

9 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

for some on all levels of this forum the overriding concern is not whether the drug may be effective against covid-19 but that it was touted by their arch enemy trump 

I could just as easily say that "for some on all levels of this forum the overriding concern is not whether the drug may be effective against covid-19 but that it was touted by their" idol trump. That's the nice thing about invoking a motive: there's no way to disprove it.

[atyclb]

40 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

48 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

for some on all levels of this forum the overriding concern is not whether the drug may be effective against covid-19 but that it was touted by their arch enemy trump 

 

I've got no dog in this fight other than to highlight institutional failures, which are imbedded in Washington now and started before this presidency. That said, what I've read about this particular medication is that it has some efficacy with some patients if taken in conjunction with other medications. In some patients it has had an adverse reaction and they are removed from it immediately. I have also read that it was prescribed for some Lupus patients that now cannot find it anywhere given the run on it and their lives are now in jeopardy as well.

 

the whole world was caught off guard and not one country except limited ones that closed borders early has not suffered from shortages of protective equipment, respirators, etc etc.

[scorecard]

On 3/25/2020 at 10:58 PM, Lacessit said:

Self-medicating is desperation.

But the crazies don't think so, sadly.

[bristolboy]

30 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

the whole world was caught off guard and not one country except limited ones that closed borders early has not suffered from shortages of protective equipment, respirators, etc etc.

But only a few chief executives of their nations kept on minimizing the danger into March of this year. And how many actually made their country less prepared against the threat of a pandemic?

[atyclb]

54 minutes ago, scorecard said:

On 3/25/2020 at 6:58 PM, Lacessit said:

Self-medicating is desperation.

But the crazies don't think so, sadly.

 

someone drinking a bottle of isopropyl alcohol because they heard alcohol kills covid 19.  very good video as many scientific-medical concepts are explained

 

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

2 hours ago, rabas said:

March 28, 202  1:24AM

Debate Ends Over Chloroquine as France Officially Sanctions Usage

"Days after beginning a large scale double blinded trial, the so called gold standard, France has now reached the conclusion chloroquine is recommended to treat corona. "

 

"In America considerable politics has developed over chloroquine,"

 

The debate is definitely not over - and especially not in France. Many doctors and scientists there are decrying this move as a precipitous and short-sighed caving in to media-led hysteria.

 

According to the Scientific Council of the CNGE (National College of Teaching GP's) in France, in a statement issued 3 days ago:

 

Quote

Given the lack of solid scientific evidence for the efficacy of hydrochloroquine and its rare but serious cardiac adverse effects, the CNGE Scientific Council recommends general practitioners not to prescribe this medication on an outpatient basis.  This prescription would be contrary to medical ethics because the risk (known) is potentially greater than the effectiveness (not established) in an outpatient population which will heal spontaneously in more than 80% of cases.  In the current state of knowledge, the use of hydroxychloroquine must be reserved for properly conducted therapeutic trials to assess the benefit / risk balance.

Is there a place for hydroxychloroquine in CoVid-19 treatment?

 

The French Society of Pharmacology and Therapeutics also warns against its use.

 

Its website notes that both chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine have a narrow margin of safety, meaning that effective doses and toxic doses are relatively close. 

Quote

“Both the package leaflet for hydroxychloroquine and the guidelines issued by the [French] drugs watchdog detail the frequent side-effects associated with its use, such as deteriorating eyesight, nausea and digestive disorders,” [...] “More rarely – and far more dangerously – they can lead to heart failure.”

Quote

“For patients who suffer from mild forms of COVID-19, accounting for 85 percent of cases, paracetamol will suffice. There is no need to expose them to the risks and side-effects of chloroquine,” [...] “In more serious cases, it is up to health professionals to determine whether chloroquine is the appropriate treatment, based on the patients’ condition and general health. We must place our faith in hospital workers and medical research.”

Chloroquine hype triggers rush on pharmacies

 

Another France24 article reports on a second claim by the same French researchers about hydroxychloroquine and again casts doubt on the results.

 

Quote

Raoult's critics have pointed to problems with the protocol of his testing and worrying side effects of the drug.

[...]

Two Chinese studies have shown that "10 days after the start of symptoms, 90 percent of people who have a moderate form (of the disease) have a controlled viral load," epidemiologist Dominique Costagliola, of the French health research institute Inserm, told AFP.

 

The fact that they got these results using hydroxychloroquine "does not make the case for its effect," she said.

 

Second study on malaria drugs for CoVid-19 treatment

[bristolboy]

8 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

The debate is definitely not over - and especially not in France. Many doctors and scientists there are decrying this move as a precipitous and short-sighed caving in to media-led hysteria.

 

According to the Scientific Council of the CNGE (National College of Teaching GP's) in France, in a statement issued 3 days ago:

 

Is there a place for hydroxychloroquine in CoVid-19 treatment?

 

The French Society of Pharmacology and Therapeutics also warns against its use.

 

Its website notes that both chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine have a narrow margin of safety, meaning that effective doses and toxic doses are relatively close. 

Chloroquine hype triggers rush on pharmacies

 

Another France24 article reports on a second claim by the same French researchers about hydroxychloroquine and again casts doubt on the results.

 

 

Second study on malaria drugs for CoVid-19 treatment

As I recall, at first a rush of positive claims for these 2 medications came out of China. And then the Chinese reversed themselves and warned of their toxicity. Strange.

[rabas]

21 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

 

Another France24 article reports on a second claim by the same French researchers about hydroxychloroquine and again casts doubt on the results.

 

Second study on malaria drugs for CoVid-19 treatment

The link heading you provide to the article.

Second study on malaria drugs for CoVid-19 treatment

 

Same link with actual title.

French expert says second study shows malaria drug helps fight coronavirus

 

 

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, rabas said:

The link heading you provide to the article.

Second study on malaria drugs for CoVid-19 treatment

 

Same link with actual title.

French expert says second study shows malaria drug helps fight coronavirus

 

 

Most likely he got that link from some secondary source. If you read the article and compare the text to both titles,  you'll see that the title he provided is a far fairer.

[GroveHillWanderer]

23 minutes ago, rabas said:

The link heading you provide to the article.

Second study on malaria drugs for CoVid-19 treatment

 

Same link with actual title.

French expert says second study shows malaria drug helps fight coronavirus

 

 

Yes, the headline says that but if you actually go beyond the headline and read the article, it goes on to pretty much rubbish the claims made by Raoult's team.

 

As the quote from it that I included points out, the results of the second study were pretty much what you'd get from any representative group of coronavirus patients, with or without treatment.

Edited April 1, 2020 by GroveHillWanderer

[atyclb]

1 hour ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

The debate is definitely not over - and especially not in France. Many doctors and scientists there are decrying this move as a precipitous and short-sighed caving in to media-led hysteria.

 

According to the Scientific Council of the CNGE (National College of Teaching GP's) in France, in a statement issued 3 days ago:

 

Is there a place for hydroxychloroquine in CoVid-19 treatment?

 

The French Society of Pharmacology and Therapeutics also warns against its use.

 

Its website notes that both chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine have a narrow margin of safety, meaning that effective doses and toxic doses are relatively close. 

Chloroquine hype triggers rush on pharmacies

 

Another France24 article reports on a second claim by the same French researchers about hydroxychloroquine and again casts doubt on the results.

 

 

Second study on malaria drugs for CoVid-19 treatment

 

i gave your post a "like" because it shows what normally happens with many new/such treatments. usually have for and against and the old school mentality that insistes on the tedious double blind extensive painstaking study which is fine but such a study is not a reality during a global apocalyptic pandemic killing lots of people. 

 

recall it was a young doctor in training that claimed a bacteria (helicobacter pyloris) caused peptic ulcer disease. many of the established gastroenterology specialists laughed at him. 

 

most important thing is keeping an open mind

[britanicus]

I would place a large bet that if the naysayers, Trump haters and the big pharma conspiracy fans had a bad dose of the virus and were offered chloroloquine twice a day, they would be quite happy to give it a go!

[atyclb]

1 minute ago, britanicus said:

I would place a large bet that if the naysayers, Trump haters and the big pharma conspiracy fans had a bad dose of the virus and were offered chloroloquine twice a day, they would be quite happy to give it a go!

 

 

agree.  when they glance through their eyes and see eternity in front of them suddenly the drug touted by their arch enemy trump becomes viable

[3NUMBAS]

this is more likely to work

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018740956/pandemic-scientist-makes-breakthrough-on-covid-19-cure

 

'Pandemic' scientist makes breakthrough on Covid-19 cure

From Checkpoint, 6:10 pm on 31 March 2020

 

[bristolboy]

9 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

this is more likely to work

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018740956/pandemic-scientist-makes-breakthrough-on-covid-19-cure

 

'Pandemic' scientist makes breakthrough on Covid-19 cure

From Checkpoint, 6:10 pm on 31 March 2020

 

A similar but quicker approach is under way to get plasma from those who have recovered from Covid and use it as a provider of immunity. Particularly to health care workers and others on the front lines.

[DrTuner]

15 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

A similar but quicker approach is under way to get plasma from those who have recovered from Covid and use it as a provider of immunity. Particularly to health care workers and others on the front lines.

I think they tried that in Thailand with the very first cases. Results IIRC were mixed.

[DrTuner]

30 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

this is more likely to work

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018740956/pandemic-scientist-makes-breakthrough-on-covid-19-cure

 

'Pandemic' scientist makes breakthrough on Covid-19 cure

From Checkpoint, 6:10 pm on 31 March 2020

 

I saw him in the Netflix doc, seemed convincing, they were doing universal flu vaccine that time. He has an itneresting quote from the interview you linked:

Quote

The disadvantage compared to a vaccine is that a vaccine might give you a year or multiple years of protection, Dr Glanville said. Antibodies will only give protection for eight to 10 weeks. 

 

First time somebody has given an estimate of how long after recovering you'd be immune. 8-10 weeks would not work for herd immunity, it would just bounce around like a ping pong ball.

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 hour ago, atyclb said:

most important thing is keeping an open mind

This. I am absolutely keeping an open mind about this. I think hydroxychloroquine shows some extremely interesting and promising anti-viral properties, according to what I've read. I would love it if we can find out that it works, and if it does, what the safe and effective dose is, how and when it should be administered to patients etc.

 

However, keeping an open mind also means not just blindly believing every new claim that's made and putting all our faith in a promising but as yet unproven treatment. Nothing in the evidence presented so far, establishes hydroxychloroquine (either alone or in combination with azithromycin) as the definite cause of the lessening of the viral load in the patients studied by Raoult and his team.

 

Of course, it should be studied but using the proper scientific principles that would allow doctors to be sure that giving it to patients is the right thing to do.

 

I would still stick with the sentiment expressed by the French CNGE Scientific Council when they say that prescribing this drug now:

 

Quote

... would be contrary to medical ethics because the risk (known) is potentially greater than the effectiveness (not established) in an outpatient population which will heal spontaneously in more than 80% of cases. In the current state of knowledge, the use of hydroxychloroquine must be reserved for properly conducted therapeutic trials to assess the benefit / risk balance

 

Once the proper scientific studies are done and the evidence is in, then we'll know what the outcome is but for now, as I said in opening, I'm keeping an open mind.

[atyclb]

27 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

This. I am absolutely keeping an open mind about this. I think hydroxychloroquine shows some extremely interesting and promising anti-viral properties, according to what I've read. I would love it if we can find out that it works, and if it does, what the safe and effective dose is, how and when it should be administered to patients etc.

 

However, keeping an open mind also means not just blindly believing every new claim that's made and putting all our faith in a promising but as yet unproven treatment. Nothing in the evidence presented so far, establishes hydroxychloroquine (either alone or in combination with azithromycin) as the definite cause of the lessening of the viral load in the patients studied by Raoult and his team.

 

Of course, it should be studied but using the proper scientific principles that would allow doctors to be sure that giving it to patients is the right thing to do.

 

I would still stick with the sentiment expressed by the French CNGE Scientific Council when they say that prescribing this drug now:

 

 

Once the proper scientific studies are done and the evidence is in, then we'll know what the outcome is but for now, as I said in opening, I'm keeping an open mind.

when did i ever espouse blindly believing every claim out there?

 

 choose the sentiment you like.

 

i choose optimism until proven otherwise

 

covid 19  research in australia

 

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by atyclb

[atyclb]

43 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

This. I am absolutely keeping an open mind about this. I think hydroxychloroquine shows some extremely interesting and promising anti-viral properties, according to what I've read. I would love it if we can find out that it works, and if it does, what the safe and effective dose is, how and when it should be administered to patients etc.

 

However, keeping an open mind also means not just blindly believing every new claim that's made and putting all our faith in a promising but as yet unproven treatment. Nothing in the evidence presented so far, establishes hydroxychloroquine (either alone or in combination with azithromycin) as the definite cause of the lessening of the viral load in the patients studied by Raoult and his team.

 

Of course, it should be studied but using the proper scientific principles that would allow doctors to be sure that giving it to patients is the right thing to do.

 

I would still stick with the sentiment expressed by the French CNGE Scientific Council when they say that prescribing this drug now:

 

 

Once the proper scientific studies are done and the evidence is in, then we'll know what the outcome is but for now, as I said in opening, I'm keeping an open mind.

 

you sort of remind me of a bitter masters or PhD medical school professor, bitter because he had always wanted to be an M.D., and was smart enough to teach us but didn't/couldn't join us.

Edited April 1, 2020 by atyclb

[atyclb]

3 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

this is more likely to work

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018740956/pandemic-scientist-makes-breakthrough-on-covid-19-cure

 

'Pandemic' scientist makes breakthrough on Covid-19 cure

From Checkpoint, 6:10 pm on 31 March 2020

 

 

very interesting, honest and candid interview.  anything/everything can potentially help

Edited April 1, 2020 by atyclb

[3NUMBAS]

https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-diarrhea-symptoms.html

 

Diarrhea is first sign of illness for some COVID-19 patients

By Rachael Rettner - Senior Writer 19 hours ago

Some never develop respiratory symptoms at all.

 

[DrTuner]

6 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-diarrhea-symptoms.html

 

Diarrhea is first sign of illness for some COVID-19 patients

By Rachael Rettner - Senior Writer 19 hours ago

Some never develop respiratory symptoms at all.

 

Another interesting, seemingly rare symptom is loss of smell and taste: https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-symptoms-loss-smell-taste.html

 

An early warning indicator, if you lose the sense of smell or taste, it might well be COVID-19. 

[atyclb]

1 hour ago, DrTuner said:

1 hour ago, 3NUMBAS said:

https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-diarrhea-symptoms.html

 

Diarrhea is first sign of illness for some COVID-19 patients

By Rachael Rettner - Senior Writer 19 hours ago

Some never develop respiratory symptoms at all.

 

Another interesting, seemingly rare symptom is loss of smell and taste: https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-symptoms-loss-smell-taste.html

 

An early warning indicator, if you lose the sense of smell or taste, it might well be COVID-19. 

 

be forewarned loss of smell (anosmia) is common in alcohol abuse and explains why some douse themselves in cologne or perfume in excess

Edited April 1, 2020 by atyclb

[lannarebirth]

SCIENCE NEWS

APRIL 1, 2020 / 2:06 AM / UPDATED 3 HOURS AGO

 

Quote

 

Chinese scientists seeking potential COVID-19 treatment find 'effective' antibodies

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-scientists/chinese-scientists-seeking-potential-covid-19-treatment-find-effective-antibodies-idUSKBN21J4QW

 

 

[DrTuner]

30 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

SCIENCE NEWS

APRIL 1, 2020 / 2:06 AM / UPDATED 3 HOURS AGO

 

 

Western version: 

 

[rabas]

3 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

However, keeping an open mind also means not just blindly believing every new claim that's made and putting all our faith in a promising but as yet unproven treatment. Nothing in the evidence presented so far, establishes hydroxychloroquine (either alone or in combination with azithromycin) as the definite cause of the lessening of the viral load in the patients studied by Raoult and his team.

I do not think anyone is talking about blind believe.  However, there is probably more evidence for chloroquine's efficacy than several other drugs because the mechanism is fairly well understood and it has been studied in vitro and animals for years since SARS days. There were no clinical trails for SARS because SARS was stopped fast.

 

A few pre-COVID-19 studies of Chloroquine and SARS

Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread.

In vitro inhibition of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus by chloroquine.

Antiviral Activity of Chloroquine against Human Coronavirus OC43 Infection in Newborn Mice

 

Introduction to mechanisms. These two are excellent media presentations by experts, particularly Michael Behe.

https://www.discovery.org/a/michael-behe-on-covid-19-chloroquine-malaria-and-the-edge-of-evolution/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7F1cnWup9M

 

Current Antiviral activity of Chloroquine (from WiKi)

Chloroquine has antiviral effects.^[34] It increases late endosomal and lysosomal pH, resulting in impaired release of the virus from the endosome or lysosome – release of the virus requires a low pH. The virus is therefore unable to release its genetic material into the cell and replicate.^[35][36] Chloroquine also seems to act as a zinc ionophore, that allows extracellular zinc to enter the cell and inhibit viral RNA-dependent RNA polymerase.^[37][38]

 

[atyclb]

1 hour ago, atyclb said:

 

be forewarned loss of smell (anosmia) is common in alcohol abuse and explains why some douse themselves in cologne or perfume in excess

 

not kidding

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060725092208.htm

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3879530/