Unusual visa situation

[FritsSikkink]

6 hours ago, jackdd said:

What are the differences?

For a new visa you need to go out of the country, an extension you can do in the country but have to do 90 day reporting if you stay over 90 days.

[smedly]

17 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

Mmmmmm, think you might have that wrong yourself...

Whilst you may have a visa, you are in Thailand on a permission to stay. 

Eg, Non Imm O multi entry visa, valid for 1 year. However, each permission to stay is only 90 days, then you must leave or extend your permission to stay.

it is a permission to stay granted by a "Visa" - duration of visa depends on when it expires - my 90 day single type O expired years ago but I have kept extending my 12 month permission to stay because ................ I can 

 

I have a permission to stay granted by a 12 month extension not a visa, the visa that allowed me to do this year on year expired a very long time ago

Edited April 23, 2020 by smedly

[cornishcarlos]

3 minutes ago, smedly said:

it is a permission to stay granted by a "Visa" - duration of visa depends on when it expires - my 90 day single type O expired years ago but I have kept extending my 12 month permission to stay because ................ I can 

 

I have a permission to stay granted by a 12 month extension not a visa, the visa that allowed me to do this year on year expired a very long time ago

 

Sort of correct I believe... For sure visas expire.

 

Your original permission to stay was granted courtesy of having a valid visa at the time of entry.

You don't receive a new permission to stay each year though, it's the original one extended.

[smedly]

17 hours ago, jackdd said:

All those permissions to stay are automatically extended until 31st July, neither the ministerial order, nor immigration bureau said that this doesn't apply to extensions.

they said it applies to visa's or other forms of short stay entries like 30days etc 

 

an order usually states what it covers not what it doesn't which were the confusion is coming from

 

My advice to anyone on a 12 month extension that is expiring before the 31st July is either to call your IO office or go there and ask for clarification

 

My own opinion leans towards - those on 12 month extensions need to renew as normal

[Mak25]

To sum it up, if you need to do your annual extension, suggest to do it as regurlarly before it expires. If your are not qualified for an annual extension and would need to leave the country now, you can stay until end of July.

[smedly]

17 hours ago, BKKTRAVELER said:

The way I see it is that my Elite visa is basically a very long term tourist visa. As a tourist in this situation, I don't have options to extend to a new visa within Thailand (except renew Elite I guess). This makes me think that I qualify to stay until end of July. Am I wrong to think like that?

I think you are correct because your stay is based on a visa, the fact it expires right now is just timing like everyone else on a valid visa or a short stay visa exempt 30 day permission - but there's only one way to find out ????

[Tanoshi]

8 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

Your original permission to stay was granted courtesy of having a valid visa at the time of entry.

So if you enter without a Visa, how does that work.

You still get permission of stay.

 

You can also have a valid Visa, but be refused entry.

 

[cornishcarlos]

8 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

So if you enter without a Visa, how does that work.

You still get permission of stay.

 

You can also have a valid Visa, but be refused entry.

 

 

Regardless of how you enter (unless sneaking across the border), you are issued with a permission to stay. Visa exempt entries still receive a permission to stay stamp.

Yes you can have a valid visa and be refused entry, same in any country.

 

Visa gives you the "right" to enter and a permission to stay, does exactly what it sounds like it does.

 

Once your permission to stay expires (date they write on the stamp in your passport) you either leave or, if eligible, you extend that permission to stay.

People who are on an annual extension have just extended that permission by 12 months.

Edited April 23, 2020 by cornishcarlos

[Tanoshi]

2 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

Visa gives you the "right" to enter and a permission to stay, does exactly what it sounds like it does.

A visa does not give you any 'right' to enter.

That decision is made by an Immigration officer at an entry point.

A Visa only determines the length of stay an officer can grant, based on the Visa type, or lack of a Visa.

[smedly]

30 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

Sort of correct I believe... For sure visas expire.

 

Your original permission to stay was granted courtesy of having a valid visa at the time of entry.

You don't receive a new permission to stay each year though, it's the original one extended.

how many 30 day extensions can you get (in normal times) on a tourist visa - VOA or Visa exempt ..................................that is the difference my friend - there are limits 

 

there are no limits on a 12 month extension based on retirement - some people have been here for 20 years renewing every year - you cannot do that with a tourist visa - VOA or Visa exempt because they have limits - which is why the amnesty 

[cornishcarlos]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

A visa does not give you any 'right' to enter.

That decision is made by an Immigration officer at an entry point.

A Visa only determines the length of stay an officer can grant, based on the Visa type, or lack of a Visa.

 

That is why I put it in " " ????

Why I also said you can have a valid visa and still be refused.

[cornishcarlos]

1 minute ago, smedly said:

how many 30 day extensions can you get (in normal times) on a tourist visa - VOA or Visa exempt ..................................that is the difference my friend - there are limits 

 

there are no limits on a 12 month extension based on retirement - some people have been here for 20 years renewing every year - you cannot do that with a tourist visa - VOA or Visa exempt because they have limits - which is why the amnesty 

 

I was discussing permission to stay vs visas... 

Different numbers of extensions on different entry types is another story..

 

 

[brewsterbudgen]

37 minutes ago, Mak25 said:

To sum it up, if you need to do your annual extension, suggest to do it as regurlarly before it expires. If your are not qualified for an annual extension and would need to leave the country now, you can stay until end of July.

Exactly right.  The amnesty is for people who need to leave Thailand but cannot.  The reason the amnesty is until 31 July is that they fully expect all these people to be able to leave Thailand before then.

 

People who live here with Extensions of Stay based on work, marriage to a Thai, retirement need to process their new annual Extension as normal.

[Tanoshi]

19 hours ago, jackdd said:

They all have a permission to stay (with varying length), no matter if you got it from a visa upon entering, or from an extension (which also started with a visa at some point)

All those permissions to stay are automatically extended until 31st July, neither the ministerial order, nor immigration bureau said that this doesn't apply to extensions.

 

From the Ministerial order.

 

Re : Permission for Certain Groups of Aliens to Remain in the Kingdom as a Special Case

 

Due to the outbreak of the communicable disease Coronavirus 2019 or COVID-19 in the Kingdom and the significant increase in the number of infected persons and deaths from this disease, the Government therefore declared an Emergency Situation in all areas of the Kingdom as from 26 March B.E. 2563 (2020) and issued the Regulation in accordance with the Emergency Decree on Public Administration in Emergency Situations B.E. 2548 (2005) determining the closure of points of entry into the Kingdom, by closing points of entry, checkpoints, border crossings or border checkpoints for travellers entering into the Kingdom in order to prevent the widespread outbreak of the disease, which affects the entry into or departure from the Kingdom, including the stay in the Kingdom of certain groups of aliens;

 

That suggests the certain groups they are referring to are those who cannot leave and re-enter the Country, to obtain new Visas, or further entries of a valid Visa to stay in Thailand.

 

Indeed anyone on an annual extension who extends their permission of stay internally at a local Immigration office has no need to leave and re-enter to be granted further permission of stay.

I would expect the order to state ALL groups of aliens, rather than certain groups, were that the case.

 

I certainly wouldn't take for granted, or advise anyone on an annual extension they are automatically extended and do not have to renew their annual extensions by the given date.

There could be repercussion at a later date.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Tanoshi

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

Same thing... When you enter you are given permission to stay. Then you either leave or you extend that permission to stay.. 

 

That is not true. The stamps are different, when entering on a visa the stamp says "Admitted until"

The extension stamp says "Extension of stay permitted up until"

 

In line with the terminology requirements of this forum you cannot possibly extend something that was never there in the first place.

[jackdd]

13 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

I would expect the order to state ALL groups of aliens, rather than certain groups, were that the case.

The extension is granted for aliens who:

- Entered Thaliand with a visa and were permitted to stay until at least 26th March

- Were given a visa exempt upon entering Thailand and were permitted to stay until at least 26th March

The extension is not granted for:

- Aliens who entered Thailand illegally

- Stateless persons

- Refugees

- ...

As we can see the automatic extension is not granted for ALL groups of aliens, but indeed just to certain groups of aliens, thus the title is correct and makes sense.

 

[cornishcarlos]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

That is not true. The stamps are different, when entering on a visa the stamp says "Admitted until"

The extension stamp says "Extension of stay permitted up until"

 

In line with the terminology requirements of this forum you cannot possibly extend something that was never there in the first place.

 

The stamps are different ???? You are classic...

 

So there was no permission to stay in the first place ?? What do you think "admitted until" refers to ??

 

 

[Suradit69]

20 hours ago, phuketrichard said:

100% wrong

 

there people here on 1 year multi entry NON B visas, 1 year non O visas, 90 day O visas, 90 day B visas, tourists visas an 30 day visa exempt stamps

there also people here on 1 year EXTENSIONS based on O or B visas

 

I'd call the elite people and ask them

Every foreigner legally staying in Thailand is here based on a permission to stay or extension of that permission.

 

whatever visa you have or had, your stay is dependent on the permissions given you, whether you still have a valid visa or  not. A visa is not a permission to stay.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Suradit69

[sandyf]

2 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

The stamps are different ???? You are classic...

 

So there was no permission to stay in the first place ?? What do you think "admitted until" refers to ??

 

 

Of course you can put forward that argument but by the same token all extensions are based on a visa of some form or other and therefore quite validly be referred to as visa extensions.

It all depends on how you want to use, or misuse, the English language but cherry picking seems to prevail.

People should think twice before saying something is the same, and the same goes for those that would prefer to believe that something is the same.

It is a fact that "admitted" and "permitted" are not the same, although a certain context may lead to a similar meaning. There would need to be some factual basis for it to be said that entry stamps and extension stamps are the same with regards to the amnesty.

[Max69xl]

20 hours ago, timendres said:

Agreed. Extensions are not visas. As such, the amnesty does not apply to extensions, as far as I know. I was just required to extend based on my work permit. No amnesty for my case.

The amnesty does not apply to annual extensions, for example a 1 year extension based on retirement or marriage.

[Suradit69]

20 hours ago, phuketrichard said:

there people here on 1 year multi entry NON B visas, 1 year non O visas, 90 day O visas, 90 day B visas, tourists visas an 30 day visa exempt stamps

there also people here on 1 year EXTENSIONS based on O or B visas

And all of them were given a permission to stay or an extension of THE PERMISSION to STAY

if they got an extension, it's an extension of the permission.

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Suradit69

[Tanoshi]

58 minutes ago, jackdd said:

The extension is granted for aliens who:

- Entered Thaliand with a visa and were permitted to stay until at least 26th March

- Were given a visa exempt upon entering Thailand and were permitted to stay until at least 26th March

I entered Thailand with a Non O Visa and was permitted to stay until July 17th 2014.

Does the amnesty cover me Jack and if not, why not?

[jackdd]

10 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

I entered Thailand with a Non O Visa and was permitted to stay until July 17th 2014.

Does the amnesty cover me Jack and if not, why not?

I guess you extended your permission to stay every year to keep it valid, thus you are covered.

Edited April 23, 2020 by jackdd

[smedly]

2 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

I was discussing permission to stay vs visas... 

Different numbers of extensions on different entry types is another story..

 

 

my point is - how many times can you extend a tourist visa - VOA - or VISA exempt entry - there is a limit which is why tourists who are stuck here are being granted this arrangement

 

people here on 12 month extensions have no such limits and they are generally not stuck here which is why the arrangement does not apply

[Tanoshi]

3 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I guess you extended your permission to stay every year to keep it valid, thus you are covered.

Then why did you not include that reason in your listed 'groups' and why does the amnesty not mention such groups as those on retirement or marriage extensions.

 

Quote

The extension is granted for aliens who:

- Entered Thaliand with a visa and were permitted to stay until at least 26th March

- Were given a visa exempt upon entering Thailand and were permitted to stay until at least 26th

 

[cornishcarlos]

Just now, smedly said:

my point is - how many times can you extend a tourist visa - VOA - or VISA exempt entry - there is a limit which is why tourists who are stuck here are being granted this arrangement

 

people here on 12 month extensions have no such limits and they are generally not stuck here which is why the arrangement does not apply

 

I agree with you 100%...

 

My discussion started because Phuket Richard started confusing things...

[jackdd]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Then why did you not include that reason in your listed 'groups' and why does the amnesty not mention such groups as those on retirement or marriage extensions.

It is included: "Entered Thaliand with a visa and were permitted to stay until at least 26th March "

[x] Tanoshi entered with a visa

[x] Tanoshi was permitted to stay in the Kingdom until at least 26th March.

[Russell17au]

30 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

And all of them were given a permission to stay or an extension of THE PERMISSION to STAY

if they got an extension, it's an extension of the permission.

 

 

 

No, you are wrong. You are reading it all wrong. Those that arrived on a 90 day Non-Imm "O" visa and who did a 1 year extension at their local IO are not included in the amnesty because they renew their extension every year at the local IO and do not have to leave the country and they get an 1 year extension stamp in their passport. Those that have arrived on any visa that requires them to leave Thailand in the time frame of their visa (30 day, 60 day, 90 day) are covered by this amnesty because the borders are closed for them to be able to leave Thailand and they get a permission to stay stamp in their passport. They are two different stamps and you are mixing your extensions and your permission to stay stamps up and their meanings.

[Almer]

21 hours ago, BKKTRAVELER said:

Thank you for answering, I guess I can stay until end of July then? I'm just cautious when it comes down to immigration

 we all are

[phuketrichard]

1 hour ago, Russell17au said:

No, you are wrong. You are reading it all wrong. Those that arrived on a 90 day Non-Imm "O" visa and who did a 1 year extension at their local IO are not included in the amnesty because they renew their extension every year at the local IO and do not have to leave the country and they get an 1 year extension stamp in their passport. Those that have arrived on any visa that requires them to leave Thailand in the time frame of their visa (30 day, 60 day, 90 day) are covered by this amnesty because the borders are closed for them to be able to leave Thailand and they get a permission to stay stamp in their passport. They are two different stamps and you are mixing your extensions and your permission to stay stamps up and their meanings.

exactly what i meant and said  ++

also

Quote

"Entered Thaliand with a visa and were permitted to stay until at least 26th March "

so even those who entered with a 1 year visa and it will expire, will be granted amnesty until end of july at which point they will need leave as they currently cant.

yet cornishcarlos has a problem with this...and wants keep hacking at this "permission to stay"  thing which goes without saying

 

All 1 year extensions state

"Extension of stay permitted  up to xxxxx  (date)

 

If ur on a 1 year EXTENSION...this amnesty does not apply to you and you must renew as you did the year before. Immigration is open for business as usual

 

I'm done with those that just want argue for arguing sake... 

Do what you want