Work Permit

[Walter Travolta]

I have a few questions regarding the requirement of a WP and the sequence in the way it works. Im looking to open a small fast food outlet

1) Can I apply for a work permit on ED visa? If not what would I need to do to be able to obtain one?
2) I have been told that I set up the outlet first and then apply for a WP. I find this a 'back to front' way of doing things because if I spend money and then get denied a WP, whats the point?
3) Does the 4 thai to 1 farang rule come into effect even if I am not working in the outlet myself? I will be opening from 8am - midnight (once the restrictions are lifted) so 2 people (thais) could work 7 days a week both on 8 hour shifts

I have done a little research on this on google but all the advice I have seen is regarding setting up larger concerns and doesnt really cover my needs. I have emailed these some companies although I have not received any replies. I have also searched through the first 10 pages of this forum and again have not come across anything that covers my requirements.
Even if I am unable to obtain a WP on an ED visa, I would still like to know the answers to questions 2 and 3 
Thanks for any help 

[FritsSikkink]

"2 people (thais) could work 7 days a week both on 8 hour shifts"

This is illegal as it doesn't comply with the labor law, no 7 working days a week.

Why would you need a work permit if you don't work? If you would be the manager you do need a work permit and 4 Thais working for you. You need to setup a business and have a Thai partner who has 51% of the shares.
 

Edited April 23, 2020 by FritsSikkink

[Walter Travolta]

1 minute ago, FritsSikkink said:

"2 people (thais) could work 7 days a week both on 8 hour shifts"

This is illegal as it doesn't comply with the labor law, no 7 working days a week.

Why would you need a work permit if you don't work? 
 

"This is illegal as it doesn't comply with the labor law, no 7 working days a week." OK thanks and that wouldnt be such a problem as Im sure finding staff would not be a problem

"Why would you need a work permit if you don't work?" 
I was under the impression I would need a WP simply to own the business? I havent researched this I just presumed it would be mandatory? The owner of the unit told me I would need to pay 2 months deposit equivalent to the rent and 1 month rent upfront, she doesnt speak great English so I asked about a WP from another (Thai) who rents a unit from her and they just told me the approximate cost of a WP, they didnt say I did or didnt need one so I am a bit in the unknown right now as I cannot get hold of anyone legal maybe because no-one is at work right now and not available via email or the 'chat' facility through their businesses 

[FritsSikkink]

7 minutes ago, Walter Travolta said:

"This is illegal as it doesn't comply with the labor law, no 7 working days a week." OK thanks and that wouldnt be such a problem as Im sure finding staff would not be a problem

"Why would you need a work permit if you don't work?" 
I was under the impression I would need a WP simply to own the business? I havent researched this I just presumed it would be mandatory? The owner of the unit told me I would need to pay 2 months deposit equivalent to the rent and 1 month rent upfront, she doesnt speak great English so I asked about a WP from another (Thai) who rents a unit from her and they just told me the approximate cost of a WP, they didnt say I did or didnt need one so I am a bit in the unknown right now as I cannot get hold of anyone legal maybe because no-one is at work right now and not available via email or the 'chat' facility through their businesses 

You don't need a work permit to own a business (being a share holder) but if you want to manage your staff, buy things for your business, .. you would. Get in touch with a lawyer / accountant as they need to help you to setup the company and do the book keeping. Unless you are from the USA you need a Thai business partner who owns 51% of the shares of your company.     

Finding staff isn't a problem, finding good staff is.

Edited April 23, 2020 by FritsSikkink

[Walter Travolta]

4 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

You don't need a work permit to own a business (being a share holder) but if you want to manage your staff, buy things for your business, .. you would. Get in touch with a lawyer / accountant as they need to help you to setup the company and do the book keeping. Unless you are from the USA you need a Thai business partner who owns 51% of the shares of your company.     

Finding staff isn't a problem, finding good staff is.

OK great thanks for the info and your time I appreciate it

[Walter Travolta]

8 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Finding staff isn't a problem, finding good staff is.

Sorry I should have asked . . . If I have a WP, and one of my staff doesnt show for their shift, would I be OK to step in and cover that shift myself?

[FritsSikkink]

29 minutes ago, Walter Travolta said:

Sorry I should have asked . . . If I have a WP, and one of my staff doesnt show for their shift, would I be OK to step in and cover that shift myself?

No, you can only do management.

[Na Fan]

No that's not correct - of course he can not "only do management".

 

He can do whatever is stated in his work permit - with the exception of the few restricted professions.

 

Want to be the owner, cook, and take out the trash? Go right ahead, so long as you have stated your intended duties when applying for the work permit. There's also this:

 

https://www.thaiworkpermit.com/thailand-law-of-work-permit-loosen-up-for-foreigners.html

 

Which basically says as long as you have a work permit, you can work in whatever position you want, with the exception of the forbidden ones.

[Max69xl]

52 minutes ago, Na Fan said:

No that's not correct - of course he can not "only do management".

 

He can do whatever is stated in his work permit - with the exception of the few restricted professions.

 

Want to be the owner, cook, and take out the trash? Go right ahead, so long as you have stated your intended duties when applying for the work permit. There's also this:

 

https://www.thaiworkpermit.com/thailand-law-of-work-permit-loosen-up-for-foreigners.html

 

Which basically says as long as you have a work permit, you can work in whatever position you want, with the exception of the forbidden ones.

Filling in for a Thai worker when you're the manager is not allowed. That's not even close to being a manager. 

[Na Fan]

Do your research, it changed - and it actually goes even further than I thought:

 

https://hrmasia.com/thailand-lifts-restrictions-on-foreign-work-permit-holders/

 

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/news3/6886/87460-Thailand-Lifted-Restrictions-on-Foreign-Workers-to.html

 

You can work anywhere doing anything, so long as you have a work permit.

 

"As long as the work is not specifically prohibited to all foreigners, Kattiya said work permit holders can engage in any occupation anywhere in the country."  (Kattiya Pandech, chief of the Phuket Provincial Employment Office)

 

 

[Walter Travolta]

2 hours ago, Na Fan said:

Do your research, it changed - and it actually goes even further than I thought:

 

https://hrmasia.com/thailand-lifts-restrictions-on-foreign-work-permit-holders/

 

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/news3/6886/87460-Thailand-Lifted-Restrictions-on-Foreign-Workers-to.html

 

You can work anywhere doing anything, so long as you have a work permit.

 

"As long as the work is not specifically prohibited to all foreigners, Kattiya said work permit holders can engage in any occupation anywhere in the country."  (Kattiya Pandech, chief of the Phuket Provincial Employment Office)

 

 

Thanks ???? I must admit Im getting conflicting advice but those links were very helpful

[scorecard]

On 4/23/2020 at 8:28 PM, Walter Travolta said:

"This is illegal as it doesn't comply with the labor law, no 7 working days a week." OK thanks and that wouldnt be such a problem as Im sure finding staff would not be a problem

"Why would you need a work permit if you don't work?" 
I was under the impression I would need a WP simply to own the business? I havent researched this I just presumed it would be mandatory? The owner of the unit told me I would need to pay 2 months deposit equivalent to the rent and 1 month rent upfront, she doesnt speak great English so I asked about a WP from another (Thai) who rents a unit from her and they just told me the approximate cost of a WP, they didnt say I did or didnt need one so I am a bit in the unknown right now as I cannot get hold of anyone legal maybe because no-one is at work right now and not available via email or the 'chat' facility through their businesses 

However leaving the staff to 'run the business' is not a good idea in any country, in fact a recipe for: theft of revenue, raw materials, laziness, shop not kept properly, no control on wastage. And if you turn up every day to check then you are working. 

[ericthai]

11 hours ago, Na Fan said:

No that's not correct - of course he can not "only do management".

 

He can do whatever is stated in his work permit - with the exception of the few restricted professions.

 

Want to be the owner, cook, and take out the trash? Go right ahead, so long as you have stated your intended duties when applying for the work permit. There's also this:

 

https://www.thaiworkpermit.com/thailand-law-of-work-permit-loosen-up-for-foreigners.html

 

Which basically says as long as you have a work permit, you can work in whatever position you want, with the exception of the forbidden ones.

A foreigner is not allowed to do any work a Thai can do!! 

Correct you can do the jobs listed in your work permit, but they are not going to list taking out the trash! You can not get a work permit on a ED visa, you need a B or non-o to get a work permit.  Even is you are US citizen there are restrictions on the types of business that can be owned 100%.  You dont need a work permit to own a company, but if you want to work are manager then one is needed. Again even as manager you can't fill-in for workers. It's happened in the past that a foreigner owns a bar, restaurant and has been caught washing dishes, taking an order and have gotten in trouble for this. Most of the time it's a setup from someone that has a grudge.  

[Walter Travolta]

20 minutes ago, ericthai said:

A foreigner is not allowed to do any work a Thai can do!! 

Correct you can do the jobs listed in your work permit, but they are not going to list taking out the trash! You can not get a work permit on a ED visa, you need a B or non-o to get a work permit.  Even is you are US citizen there are restrictions on the types of business that can be owned 100%.  You dont need a work permit to own a company, but if you want to work are manager then one is needed. Again even as manager you can't fill-in for workers. It's happened in the past that a foreigner owns a bar, restaurant and has been caught washing dishes, taking an order and have gotten in trouble for this. Most of the time it's a setup from someone that has a grudge.  

Thanks ericthai - So OK if I dont want to go through the work permit 'route' I can still open the business but would have to be 51/49 thai owned? Obviously I would make sure I would be the majority shareholder but the only thing would be that I couldnt do anything with the business 'hands on'? The business is only a very small concern that I think would turn a decent profit eventually which would sustain my stay here. Im OK not working at the business but because I assumed I would automatically need a WP, the questions arose regarding what I was or was not allowed to do having one. If I dont need one, those questions become irrelevant and I would rather not go through the expense (changing visas mainly) for such a small business. Do you know if I would need much outlay to set the business up via a lawyer or could I set it up without much outlay or any lawyer being involved? (rather like doing your own extensions without using an agent?). I guess what Im asking here is, If I can get the relevant paperwork to apply and take it to a Labour office myself and set the business up without forking out for a lawyer . . is that do-able or not? Thanks

[ericthai]

To open a Thai ltd company you will need 3 people, with Thai's owning 51%.  If you have a good Thai friend to help with the documents and running around it's do-able.  If not, then I suggest use a lawyer unless you can speak, read and write Thai. 

 

Last company I opened with a Thai friend we did all the paper work ourselves. There is allot of running around and paper work to do. You need to register with business development department which is under the ministry of commerce, register for tax and VAT and a few other things.  Cant recall the cost as this was back around 2005 think is was around 6,000B I know it was less than 10K THB.  Hope this helps!

[VocalNeal]

12 hours ago, Max69xl said:

Filling in for a Thai worker when you're the manager is not allowed. That's not even close to being a manager.

But I believe you are allowed to train the staff?

[jomtienisgood]

On 4/23/2020 at 5:21 PM, FritsSikkink said:

"2 people (thais) could work 7 days a week both on 8 hour shifts"

This is illegal as it doesn't comply with the labor law, no 7 working days a week.

Why would you need a work permit if you don't work? If you would be the manager you do need a work permit and 4 Thais working for you. You need to setup a business and have a Thai partner who has 51% of the shares.
 

Exactly

[jomtienisgood]

6 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

But I believe you are allowed to train the staff?

Training is working.....

[Walter Travolta]

11 hours ago, ericthai said:

To open a Thai ltd company you will need 3 people, with Thai's owning 51%.  If you have a good Thai friend to help with the documents and running around it's do-able.  If not, then I suggest use a lawyer unless you can speak, read and write Thai. 

 

Last company I opened with a Thai friend we did all the paper work ourselves. There is allot of running around and paper work to do. You need to register with business development department which is under the ministry of commerce, register for tax and VAT and a few other things.  Cant recall the cost as this was back around 2005 think is was around 6,000B I know it was less than 10K THB.  Hope this helps!

Great thanks for that info, I have a Thai friend that might help me. I emailed a lawyer last night in the area and looking on their website their prices were very high, so your reply is very welcome. Thanks again for your advice and time, much appreciated

[EbhB]

Did this from August last year until I was on a 1 year work permit with underlying visa now in January. Spent altogether maybe 10 minutes at the department of works myself, and everything else just was sorted out by the lawyers I used.

 

If your days have a value, I would strongly recommend using a lawyer, although finding the right one is also work of course... 

 

Would be happy to provide further info if you're interested, including some bits around what period is possible for the work permit - there are some extra hoops to get a 1 year work permit insted of 3 or 6 months only, the sort that are easier to do via PM ????

[ericthai]

11 hours ago, Walter Travolta said:

Great thanks for that info, I have a Thai friend that might help me. I emailed a lawyer last night in the area and looking on their website their prices were very high, so your reply is very welcome. Thanks again for your advice and time, much appreciated

yes, lawyers in Thailand are rip offs.  I know several friends that used lawyers and things were not done correctly.  Best is ask your friend to help, again you will need to Thai partners on paper. You can PM if you need more help. 

[scorecard]

On 4/26/2020 at 4:06 AM, ericthai said:

To open a Thai ltd company you will need 3 people, with Thai's owning 51%.  If you have a good Thai friend to help with the documents and running around it's do-able.  If not, then I suggest use a lawyer unless you can speak, read and write Thai. 

 

Last company I opened with a Thai friend we did all the paper work ourselves. There is allot of running around and paper work to do. You need to register with business development department which is under the ministry of commerce, register for tax and VAT and a few other things.  Cant recall the cost as this was back around 2005 think is was around 6,000B I know it was less than 10K THB.  Hope this helps!

Agree, you can set it up yourself. And there are other options; many local accounting firms do it and usually for reasonable fees. (I don't mean big high profile accounting companies, just local outfits you typically find in Pattaya and Phuket, Chiang Mai, KK, Korat etc.,and of course in Bkk). The forms etc., are not rocket science, they are very straight forward. Local business agencies can do the same stuff, Sunbelt Asia is worth a look.

 

Don't listen to lawyers who will tell you the application and the negotiation must be done by qualified Thai lawyers, totally not true. Some will also say the negotiation must be done by a qualified Thai lawyer, not true, in fact there is no negotiation. Many folks have paid outrageous fees to lawyers for this work in the past, tens of thousands of Baht plus the actual published fees, even hundreds of thousands of Baht. Total rip off. And I mean both Thai and farang lawyers.

 

Accountants can often do several functions: set-up, annual report to the Thai Companies office, monthly/annual accounting, annual company tax returns and more. (And set-up Work Permit if you go that route.)

 

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by scorecard

[jomtienisgood]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

Agree, you can set it up yourself. And there are other options; many local accounting firms do it and usually for reasonable fees. (I don't mean big high profile accounting companies, just local outfits you typically find in Pattaya and Phuket, Chiang Mai, KK, Korat etc.,and of course in Bkk). The forms etc., are not rocket science, they are very straight forward. Local business agencies can do the same stuff, Sunbelt Asia is worth a look.

 

Don't listen to lawyers who will tell you the application and the negotiation must be done by qualified Thai lawyers, totally not true. Some will also say the negotiation must be done by a qualified Thai lawyer, not true, in fact there is no negotiation. Many folks have paid outrageous fees to lawyers for this work in the past, tens of thousands of Baht plus the actual published fees, even hundreds of thousands of Baht. Total rip off. And I mean both Thai and farang lawyers.

 

Accountants can often do several functions: set-up, annual report to the Thai Companies office, monthly/annual accounting, annual company tax returns and more. (And set-up Work Permit if you go that route.)

 

 

Also do Not forget that it takes longer to obtain the VAT Nr than Comp Registration Nr. So ie VAT reimbursement on expenses or purchases you did in that period CANNOT be claimed..... 

[Walter Travolta]

21 hours ago, EbhB said:

Did this from August last year until I was on a 1 year work permit with underlying visa now in January. Spent altogether maybe 10 minutes at the department of works myself, and everything else just was sorted out by the lawyers I used.

 

If your days have a value, I would strongly recommend using a lawyer, although finding the right one is also work of course... 

 

Would be happy to provide further info if you're interested, including some bits around what period is possible for the work permit - there are some extra hoops to get a 1 year work permit insted of 3 or 6 months only, the sort that are easier to do via PM ????

Thanks for your message, I appreciate it. I think I will be going down the route of no WP to be honest. I received an email from the law firm I contacted and found the fee was going to be too high for what the business is worth. And to be honest, my days have zero value at the moment haha which is why I am considering this small business. I get bored very quickly, I love having something to do and get my teeth into but also want to get everything done right as to not have to waste time and money correcting previous errors

[Walter Travolta]

9 hours ago, scorecard said:

Agree, you can set it up yourself. And there are other options; many local accounting firms do it and usually for reasonable fees. (I don't mean big high profile accounting companies, just local outfits you typically find in Pattaya and Phuket, Chiang Mai, KK, Korat etc.,and of course in Bkk). The forms etc., are not rocket science, they are very straight forward. Local business agencies can do the same stuff, Sunbelt Asia is worth a look.

 

Don't listen to lawyers who will tell you the application and the negotiation must be done by qualified Thai lawyers, totally not true. Some will also say the negotiation must be done by a qualified Thai lawyer, not true, in fact there is no negotiation. Many folks have paid outrageous fees to lawyers for this work in the past, tens of thousands of Baht plus the actual published fees, even hundreds of thousands of Baht. Total rip off. And I mean both Thai and farang lawyers.

 

Accountants can often do several functions: set-up, annual report to the Thai Companies office, monthly/annual accounting, annual company tax returns and more. (And set-up Work Permit if you go that route.)

 

 

Thanks I have sent Sunbelt an email ????