2 hours ago, toho said:

Okay, black and white.

Where did it start: China, USA, somewhere in between?

Who kept quiet about it for too long: China, USA?

Who silenced medics who sent out warnings: USA, China?

Who refuses to co-operate?

Who is influencing, blackmailing WHO, countries worldwide?

My answers: CHINA.

Same China that now likes to pretend as if they are the benefactors of the world, sending mountcaps (inferior most of the time) to countries who hail China (have to hail, because they are financially depending on imperialistic China).

And yes: Trump, like many other countries took matters serious too late.

After the war Germany did a "Wiedergutmachung" . To whom in China can we send the bill??

Why are there currently 1.2 million infected people in the USA?

Obviously to get infected there needs to be a virus. That virus first appeared in China. Can we and should we blame China for that? As far as I understand it could have happened anywhere.

Yes, China was late to inform their own people and the rest of the world. But they did inform them in January.

Now look how leaders around the world reacted to this. Some countries, even near to China, have only few infections.

Other countries had more infections but they worked hard to bring the numbers down.

And then there is Trump. Ignorant and downplaying the risk for months! Where would the USA be now if Trump would have taken that seriously? If he would have cared about medical supplies? If he would have warned the citizens?

 

It's like a small fire is reported to the fire brigade. And they wait until it's a real BIG fire. And then they complain why nobody told them about the small fire. He was told - but he ignored it.

Edited May 7, 20206 yr by OneMoreFarang

5 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You make 4 claims, I disagree with 3 with arguments. Your answer is a link and telling me to find the arguments for you. Sorry, discussions don't work that way. Disagree with someone, come with facts.

You'll get one for now as I will go exercise.

 

The title says it all. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/coronavirus-cause-china-research-evidence-destroyed-a9495856.html

 

Chew on that for a while. 

 

One down.

 

The rest of your silly assertions will fall just as quickly.  Walking awaits:

2 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

He was told - but he ignored it.

He is who?

For a guy who graduated at the top of his class you'd think he'd remember his pledge...

 

"A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do."

 

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Stadtler said:

You'll get one for now as I will go exercise.

 

The title says it all. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/coronavirus-cause-china-research-evidence-destroyed-a9495856.html

 

Chew on that for a while. 

 

One down.

 

The rest of your silly assertions will fall just as quickly.  Walking awaits:

Again a link and the message to do the work myself. This time even worse, a link that doesn't work with adblocker.

 

Looking forward to your answers, not a link and the message 'find it yourself'.

 

I will help you, China said ' no clear evidence of human to human transmission', far from the same as your claim ' China said no human to human transmission', even stronger, it points towards human to human transmission being possible.

With that point cleared and you being correct on point 3, leaves you only 2 points to prove.

Edited May 7, 20206 yr by stevenl

37 minutes ago, candide said:

 

You are right on this particular point. The reasons about it are not clear.

It is interesting to note that the information comes from Gaixin, a media group based in Beijing and therefore subject to CCP's censorship.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Stadtler said:

You'll get one for now as I will go exercise.

 

The title says it all. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/coronavirus-cause-china-research-evidence-destroyed-a9495856.html

 

Chew on that for a while. 

 

One down.

 

The rest of your silly assertions will fall just as quickly.  Walking awaits:

While I agree you were right on point 1, it's not true for point 2, true for point 3, not true for point 4 if one takes into account the international joint mission in February. Well, 50% is not so bad for a Trumper.

Your general conclusion was pure nonsense.

Edited May 7, 20206 yr by candide

12 hours ago, webfact said:

Mike Pompeo

Just as dumb as his boss.

23 minutes ago, Stadtler said:

The title says it all. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/coronavirus-cause-china-research-evidence-destroyed-a9495856.html

Chew on that for a while. 

Here is the conclusion of that article:

Quote

However, there is little in the document that is not already in the public domain and there is nothing to conclusively support Mr Trump’s claim that the disease originated in a scientific laboratory. It confirms that the Australian government believes that a wet market in Wuhan was the likely origin of the virus.

Not at all Mr Pompeo speech...

Not to allow China off the hook completely but if Trump had taken the situation seriously, earlier he

could have saved thousands of lives .

He procrastinated beyond belief including an interview where he stated " just an old Chinaman came here"

 

I just find it fascinating how far the liberal left will go to defend China. They will spend hours of their day on here and pages of posts defending China then when you point it out they seem gobsmacked and try to act like they aren't defending China. 

It makes it even more laughable that in defending China, the liberal left sides with a nation that is the antithesis of their whole belief system, and by every available metric WORSE than Trump and Pompeo will ever be. 

 

But apparently Orange Man is so bad that communist China can have a free pass at wrecking the world economy and stacking corpses in every western nation. 

10 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

I just find it fascinating how far the liberal left will go to defend China. They will spend hours of their day on here and pages of posts defending China then when you point it out they seem gobsmacked and try to act like they aren't defending China. 

It makes it even more laughable that in defending China, the liberal left sides with a nation that is the antithesis of their whole belief system, and by every available metric WORSE than Trump and Pompeo will ever be. 

 

But apparently Orange Man is so bad that communist China can have a free pass at wrecking the world economy and stacking corpses in every western nation. 

It's all about facts, which seems to escape you.

12 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

I just find it fascinating how far the liberal left will go to defend China. They will spend hours of their day on here and pages of posts defending China then when you point it out they seem gobsmacked and try to act like they aren't defending China. 

It makes it even more laughable that in defending China, the liberal left sides with a nation that is the antithesis of their whole belief system, and by every available metric WORSE than Trump and Pompeo will ever be. 

 

But apparently Orange Man is so bad that communist China can have a free pass at wrecking the world economy and stacking corpses in every western nation. 

The reality, most liberals got indoctrinated in college, where free speech is discouraged.  And you have a high concentration of pro-China funding as well.

During my college years, even I leaned leftward.  That all ended when I got a good job and began to pay more and more taxes.

Edited May 7, 20206 yr by Isaan sailor

15 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

I just find it fascinating how far the liberal left will go to defend China.

I just find fascinating how far the president/government of a western country can attack so consistently China without showing any proof of what China may have made wrong...

4 minutes ago, stevenl said:

It's all about facts, which seems to escape you.

 

The 'facts' that China put forward which you seem hell bent on believing without question for some bonkers reason.

 

But you keep carrying that water.

12 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

China's hero doctor was punished for telling truth about coronavirus

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/08/opinions/coronavirus-bociurkiw/index.html

 

U.S. Intelligence Officials Believe China Covered Up Severity of Coronavirus Outbreak to Stock Up on Medical Supplies

 

https://time.com/5831511/us-intel-china-covered-up-coronavirus/

Maybe you care to elaborate on this statement please ?

 

Just now, Pattaya46 said:

I just find fascinating how far the president/government of a western country can attack so consistently China without showing any proof of what China may have made wrong...

 

We gonna ignore them silencing and disappearing doctors and journalists, removing documentation from the internet, running a disinformation campaigns on western social media, threatening western nations who call for investigations? 

58 minutes ago, candide said:

 

While I agree you were right on point 1, it's not true for point 2, true for point 3, not true for point 4 if one takes into account the international joint mission in February. Well, 50% is not so bad for a Trumper.

Your general conclusion was pure nonsense.

 

how 'bout we all take off our MAGA hats and put on our intel hats for a little thought experiment, shall we?

 

what do we know?  we know china has the world's most comprehensive and intrusive surveillance program directed against its citizens.  mao-yeye knows all.  no vehicle can move, no person can walk outside without being identified and tracked.  all calls are monitored, all purchases are recorded.  if anything, the surveillance inside the wuhan level-4 lab is much more intense than anything outside.  the chinese government has access to all the paper and electronic records, all the video footage, all the passcode records for the doors, and every light switch or exhaust fan being turned on or off.  if something happened there, they would know it, and no way to deny it.

 

what else do we know?  we know the usa has a massive spy infrastructure, with 17 collection agencies.  the nsa is known to vacuum up all electronic communications worldwide.  we have a consulate in wuhan with human assets and a suite of crypto gear on the roof that even huawei envies.  it's very possible we know stuff, lots of stuff.  we know we monitor many things, and if an unknown virus is appearing, in the land of sars and mers and bird flu, then our agencies would have been tasked with learning more.

 

what else?  the first case was (officially) recorded in wuhan november 17.  if true, then the "accident"  could have been early to mid-november, possibly earlier, but let's go with that.  did we know anything then?  there was a news article claiming an intel report end of november, but the pentagram specifically denied the existence of any such report.  is this important?  not really.

 

what IS important is that trump and pompeo are claiming "significant" evidence that proves with "high certainty" that the virus escaped from the lab.  they did not say "no evidence," they did not say "no clear evidence," they did not say "some evidence."  "significant" is, well, significant.

 

given what we can know, and prove, with our limited intel gathering ability within china, if we have enough to be "significant" leading to "high certainty," then the chinese can NOT claim ignorance.  if we know it, they knew it at the time.

 

all the other data points are irrelevant at that point.  silenced doctors, destroyed data, cover-ups are unimportant.  if we can prove it came from the lab, the chinese knew and lied about it.  nothing else matters.

 

we claim we DO have the proof.  but do we?

 

trump's relationship with the truth is, well....complicated.  and pompeo is famous for his speech on foreign policy where he was quoted last year as saying  "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole. It's – it was like – we had entire training courses."  we also have a poor record of telling the truth when it comes to international affairs.  i don't think i need to give examples.

 

after all, trump was pleased with xi's and the who's actions.....until his bumbling became apparent.  and the claim of significant evidence came only once a whistleblower appeared claiming trump regime incompetence.

 

now trump/pompeo are obligated to provide their evidence.  they've made the claim, the burden of proof is on them.

 

if they cannot, then the world must decide.  are we to believe a couple of serial liars, or do we believe the experts at the united nations agency dedicated to handling health crises. 

 

8 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

We gonna ignore them silencing and disappearing doctors //

Never heard about that??

Which doctors "disappeared" by China?

Certainly not Dr Li Wenliang...

Poompui Pompeo's got this right. Don't matter if you hate Trump or love him, China's got to answer some hard questions. That the virus originated in Wuhan is not in question. Heck, the Chinese scrambled to close Hubei down before people anywhere were even talking pandemic. They knew they had a monster on hand.

 

What the world needs to know is exactly how the C-19 virus evolved and then infected humans. The clues are in Wuhan, maybe the virology lab, maybe the wet market, maybe both.

 

We need to get to the bottom of this to prevent Covid-2021.

 

And WHO needs to be taken apart and put together again. Jeez, they were advising against travel bans, against masks and against calling it a pandemic till national health orgs started pointing and laughing.

 

 

1 minute ago, Why Me said:

Poompui Pompeo's got this right. Don't matter if you hate Trump or love him, China's got to answer some hard questions. That the virus originated in Wuhan is not in question. Heck, the Chinese scrambled to close Hubei down before people anywhere were even talking pandemic. They knew they had a monster on hand.

 

What the world needs to know is exactly how the C-19 virus evolved and then infected humans. The clues are in Wuhan, maybe the virology lab, maybe the wet market, maybe both.

 

We need to get to the bottom of this to prevent Covid-2021.

 

And WHO needs to be taken apart and put together again. Jeez, they were advising against travel bans, against masks and against calling it a pandemic till national health orgs started pointing and laughing.

 

 

 

 

China should be writing several blank cheques......

1 minute ago, Why Me said:

Poompui Pompeo's got this right. Don't matter if you hate Trump or love him, China's got to answer some hard questions. That the virus originated in Wuhan is not in question. Heck, the Chinese scrambled to close Hubei down before people anywhere were even talking pandemic. They knew they had a monster on hand.

 

What the world needs to know is exactly how the C-19 virus evolved and then infected humans. The clues are in Wuhan, maybe the virology lab, maybe the wet market, maybe both.

 

We need to get to the bottom of this to prevent Covid-2021.

 

And WHO needs to be taken apart and put together again. Jeez, they were advising against travel bans, against masks and against calling it a pandemic till national health orgs started pointing and laughing.

 

You would think that this would be a pretty normal assumption by most people, but there is a significant portion of fringe people who refuse to see it that way, and want to use the virus for political gain.

7 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Never heard about that??

Which doctors "disappeared" by China?

Certainly not Dr Li Wenliang...

Ai Fen is one doctor. She's been recently un-dissapeared after posting a cryptic WeChat message. 

 

Journalists:

 

Chen Quishi, Fang Bin and Li Zehuamissing among others. 

 

They Documented the Coronavirus Crisis in Wuhan. Then They Vanished.

 

Quote

HONG KONG — The beige van squatted outside of a Wuhan hospital, its side and back doors ajar. Fang Bin, a local clothing salesman, peered inside as he walked past. He groaned: “So many dead.”

 

He counted five, six, seven, eight body bags. “This is too many.”

 

That moment, in a 40-minute video about the coronavirus outbreak that has devastated China, propelled Mr. Fang to internet fame. Then, less than two weeks later, he disappeared.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/14/business/wuhan-coronavirus-journalists.html

 

But you guys keep carrying Chinas water. 

19 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

You would think that this would be a pretty normal assumption by most people, but there is a significant portion of fringe people who refuse to see it that way, and want to use the virus for political gain.

Exactly. Unless you are 130 years old and saw the Spanish flu unfold then I don't care who you are, virologist, epidemiologist, whoever, you've never seen or imagined anything of this scale.

 

So I dont blame Trump or the Dems or for that matter any country for messing up the first response. Hindsight is 20-20.

 

But to run scared of offending China now would be the height of stupidity. Another biosafety failure, another bat-to-pangolin-to-X-to-human mutation/transmission and we'll have another pandemic on us.

 

And the next one might not be so "benign". Think ebola virulence combined with respiratory transmission. That's half the world dying horrible deaths right there.

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Why are there currently 1.2 million infected people in the USA?

 

Because the US has more international traffic than probably any other country on Earth. Why do you think there are less infected in China? Because the CCP tells you so?

8 minutes ago, rvaviator said:

Always more that one side to a story

 

 

Interesting video - thanks for posting.

5 hours ago, toho said:

Okay, black and white.

Where did it start: China, USA, somewhere in between?

Who kept quiet about it for too long: China, USA?

Who silenced medics who sent out warnings: USA, China?

Who refuses to co-operate?

Who is influencing, blackmailing WHO, countries worldwide?

My answers: CHINA.

Same China that now likes to pretend as if they are the benefactors of the world, sending mountcaps (inferior most of the time) to countries who hail China (have to hail, because they are financially depending on imperialistic China).

And yes: Trump, like many other countries took matters serious too late.

After the war Germany did a "Wiedergutmachung" . To whom in China can we send the bill??

West Germany  was  obliterated initially economically and productively. It was  only in recognition of the  fact  East Germany was  being  rebuilt by the  Communist authorities that a ideological change was adopted and  West Germany was massively re established. "  Wiedergutmachung" ? What ideological history   were  you  taught to  believe?

On the  political scene  there  is  no one  country  who exclusively  attempts  to  instill, install, coerce,  bull shift the  underlying aspirations  of  dominant  ideology and the  advantages  of  success in doing so in whatever  means applied  in that.

Edited May 7, 20206 yr by Dumbastheycome
Additionals

1 hour ago, Mama Noodle said:

Ai Fen is one doctor. She's been recently un-dissapeared after posting a cryptic WeChat message. 

 

Journalists:

 

Chen Quishi, Fang Bin and Li Zehuamissing among others. 

 

They Documented the Coronavirus Crisis in Wuhan. Then They Vanished.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/14/business/wuhan-coronavirus-journalists.html

 

But you guys keep carrying Chinas water. 

all those "citizen journalists" (dude with cell phone) and the doctor were picked up after the first of february, after the global emergency had been declared.  i didn't bother to research the full story, as they all occurred after the cat was out of the hotpot.

 

what difference, at that point, did it make?

3 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

what IS important is that trump and pompeo are claiming "significant" evidence that proves with "high certainty" that the virus escaped from the lab.  they did not say "no evidence," they did not say "no clear evidence," they did not say "some evidence."  "significant" is, well, significant.

Wonderful write up, my compliments,

 

But, no one claimed they have 'proof'. They said significant evidence it may have come from a lab.

 

MAY

 

Holy twoots, even I claim when all available evidence is considered, science and situational, it likely came from the lab. Likely means like maybe 50% chance.  Stronger than 'may'.

 

In truth, Wuhan was warned how many times? A Beijing lab let the old SARS leak what 3 times, eventually killing someone. But to be fair, it is not all about China, it's about the science of working with the world's most deadly pathogens in labs with people where we know their will be accidents. It a global issue and has been for a while. It's a big issue right now and no one should be hiding information.

 

BTW, do you know that pangolin's are out, forgiven? Initial reports that its virus was 99% similar were wrong, it's only 90%, much less than Bat Women's Yunnan bat reference. How did that happen? A Chinese researcher had an accident and reported the similarity of only the small spike region. Enthusiastic scientists are seldom careful. 

 

Edited May 7, 20206 yr by rabas

18 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I am not sure what is more amazing: That American politicians still try to pretend Trump did everything right and everybody else, especially China, is to blame.

Or the Americans who still believe that <deleted>.

But then again, there are also more than 50% of Americans who believe god created the world about 6,000 years ago. Amazing! 

its not the issue whether trump or anyone else did the right thing..... if the ccp had not unleashed the wuhan virus on the world trump would not be under the spotlight!!! lets get real, ccp is the culprit, anything else just is just irrelevant and takes the focus of the real culprits.!!!

10 minutes ago, honcho said:

its not the issue whether trump or anyone else did the right thing..... if the ccp had not unleashed the wuhan virus on the world trump would not be under the spotlight!!! lets get real, ccp is the culprit, anything else just is just irrelevant and takes the focus of the real culprits.!!!

It is also the issue! China messed up the response to the initial outbreak. It happens sometimes and other countries are not expected just to sit and wait because another country messed up. 

Some countries adequately responded to this threat (ex. SK, Germany), others did not. 

Trump failed to provide an efficient response to a threatening situation caused by China. He's not responsible for the initial situation, but he is responsible for failed to respond adequately to this situation.