Boris says wear a mask.

[Logosone]

Not enough studies exist on whether homemade cloth masks trap viruses to know for sure.

 

People across the United States are donning homemade masks in an effort to curb transmission of the coronavirus. But there isn’t enough data to know for sure whether such cloth masks will prevent an infected person from spreading the virus to someone else, experts say.

 

Cloth may cut down on some large respiratory droplets from a cough or sneeze, but it’s unclear whether it will also catch smaller droplets called aerosols that are released by just breathing or talking.

 

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-19-can-fabric-cloth-masks-stem-coronavirus-spread

[Canuck1966]

One thing that is interesting is that the virus can enter through the eyes too

Where is the guidance for goggles/glasses etc???

What's the point of a mask if your eyes are exposed

 

I have other thoughts on why certain countries have less exposure but I'm sure the PC brigade would have my guts for garters

All I will say is that Japan is 125+ million and the death rate is very low

Japan is made up of 98% Japanese 

South Korea has very few too and a similar pattern emerges

So does Taiwan 

The UK and the USA are much more multi cultural and certain ethnicities have up to 4 times higher infection rates 

[rabas]

4 minutes ago, vermin on arrival said:

Well there is significant research going into the wearing of mass now. For it to be really effective it requires 80+% compliance:

 

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infections-would-plummet-new-study-says?fbclid=IwAR1LryGzu5-60MlFn56vrg_UXSh8FVqR7vPLfJZZVZpg0UeerhIPq3S5liA

 

From the above article links to other studies. This one has downloadable pdf: https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v1

 

and another linked study from top article: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.13553.pdf

 

and another current study linked from the top article: https://rs-delve.github.io/reports/2020/05/04/face-masks-for-the-general-public.html

Excellent, that exposes the issue.

 

A mask will work for me. The issue of masks lowering Ro in a community is not about whether the mask works for the wearer or not. But some here push it to tell people not to wear masks.

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by rabas

[Logosone]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Many countries already have more than 80 percent of their population wearing masks in public, including Hong Kong, where most stores deny entry to unmasked customers, and the more than 30 countries that legally require masks in public spaces, such as Israel, Singapore, and the Czech Republic. Mask use in combination with physical distancing is even more powerful.

 

https://www.fast.ai/2020/04/13/masks-summary/

 

I'll await your bias opinion again

 

 

And yet after the Czech Republic required the wearing of masks the number of deaths went up, not down.

 

Wearing masks therefore is not 'powerful' at all, it has no impact whatsoever on the death rate. See Czech Republic, a perfect example.

 

Unfortunately figures for Hong Kong, Japan, Thailand, Cambodia Laos, China et all are not worth the paper they're written on.

[Canuck1966]

3 minutes ago, vermin on arrival said:

Well there is significant research going into the wearing of mass now. For it to be really effective it requires 80+% compliance:

 

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infections-would-plummet-new-study-says?fbclid=IwAR1LryGzu5-60MlFn56vrg_UXSh8FVqR7vPLfJZZVZpg0UeerhIPq3S5liA

 

From the above article links to other studies. This one has downloadable pdf: https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v1

 

and another linked study from top article: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.13553.pdf

 

and another current study linked from the top article: https://rs-delve.github.io/reports/2020/05/04/face-masks-for-the-general-public.html

It also requires the user to put them on and take them off properly

And not to reuse a disposable item multiple times

They work in hospitals because there is a strict protocol for PPE after each patient/shift

 

Average Somchai on the BTS starts to think he's invincible with a moth eaten old mask on that he's touched a thousand times with his grubby fingers 

[poohy]

16 minutes ago, rabas said:

She's from a country that uses masks and gel with exceeding low infection rates.

Well send him her it to my town to tell a fair %of the thais to wear it  i dont think  hanging off an ear or under the chin qualifies and that's the ones that have one

[vermin on arrival]

2 minutes ago, Logosone said:

And yet after the Czech Republic required the wearing of masks the number of deaths went up, not down.

 

Wearing masks therefore is not 'powerful' at all, it has no impact whatsoever on the death rate. See Czech Republic, a perfect example.

 

Unfortunately figures for Hong Kong, Japan, Thailand, Cambodia Laos, China et all are not worth the paper they're written on.

I don't think they are fudging things in HK.

[mommysboy]

I don't think masks do much.  However, it may indicate that someone is more mindful of what they and others are doing.

[vermin on arrival]

1 minute ago, Canuck1966 said:

It also requires the user to put them on and take them off properly

And not to reuse a disposable item multiple times

They work in hospitals because there is a strict protocol for PPE after each patient/shift

 

Average Somchai on the BTS starts to think he's invincible with a moth eaten old mask on that he's touched a thousand times with his grubby fingers 

I think it's really about reducing the aerosol droplets from breathing and talking in close quarters such as indoors in public and transport and making sure sneezes and coughs don't blast out and highly contaminate surfaces that can be touched.

[jonesthepost]

Boris is a <deleted> they have not got enough mask for hospital; staff just stay alert   

[473geo]

10 minutes ago, Grumpy John said:

I had a look through the wifes draws the other day to see if she had a spare mask but the only ones she had had been made incorrectly!   ????

These are perfect, put on your head and across your face, and see the positive effect on social distancing as you pass through the crowds

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Logosone said:

Not enough studies exist on whether homemade cloth masks trap viruses to know for sure.

 

People across the United States are donning homemade masks in an effort to curb transmission of the coronavirus. But there isn’t enough data to know for sure whether such cloth masks will prevent an infected person from spreading the virus to someone else, experts say.

 

Cloth may cut down on some large respiratory droplets from a cough or sneeze, but it’s unclear whether it will also catch smaller droplets called aerosols that are released by just breathing or talking.

 

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-19-can-fabric-cloth-masks-stem-coronavirus-spread

Can you see a pattern emerging here? you discredit all studies that conclude face masks do have beneficial uses in stopping the spread of a virus. However you cling to one experimental study, not peer reviewed that has the authors admitting that it should not be used as policy making and has very limited data on face masks. 

[transam]

2 hours ago, Yinn said:

The France boss also say the same for France.

i think soon all euro will be follow Thailand now.

 

And you will follow France's clean toilets....Yes.....?    ????

[Logosone]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Can you see a pattern emerging here? you discredit all studies that conclude face masks do have beneficial uses in stopping the spread of a virus. However you cling to one experimental study, not peer reviewed that has the authors admitting that it should not be used as policy making and has very limited data on face masks. 

Of course, cause I've read them and we've seen they're not very useful as evidence.

 

I could equally post 5 studies that ALL conclude that facemasks have no effect, and of course you would disagree with them.

 

So the point is that the evidence on facemasks is contradictory, unclear and scant. Every study, including the first one you linked to says that there are not many studies and not much evidence.

 

That's just the way it is.

 

The one study which looks at the ACTUAL results of measures, as opposed to putting 12 people in a room with masks, but rather compares the data of 30 countries in relation to specific measures concluded with absolutely clarity that the data is clear, masks have no effect.

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1

Edited May 12, 2020 by Logosone

[Logosone]

11 minutes ago, vermin on arrival said:

I don't think they are fudging things in HK.

A Chinese study from Hong Kong itself, published in the Lancet, concluded that figures from China are most likely inaccurate by a very large margin:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/china-coronavirus-cases-might-have-been-four-times-official-figure-says-study

[vermin on arrival]

1 minute ago, Logosone said:

A Chinese study from Hong Kong itself, published in the Lancet, concluded that figures from China are most likely inaccurate by a very large margin:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/china-coronavirus-cases-might-have-been-four-times-official-figure-says-study

Yes, Chinese data is bad. Not so HK. They are not the same. I have many friends in HK following this.

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Of course, cause I've read them and we've seen they're not very useful as evidence.

 

I could equally post 5 studies that ALL conclude that facemasks have no effect, and of course you would disagree with them.

 

So the point is that the evidence on facemasks is contradictory, unclear and scant. Every study, including the first one you linked to says that there are not many studies and not much evidence.

 

That's just the way it is.

 

The one study which looks at the ACTUAL results of measures, as opposed to putting 12 people in a room with masks, but rather compares the data of 30 countries in relation to specific measures concluded with absolutely clarity that the data is clear, masks have no effect.

 

"we've" seen they're not very useful as evidence? Who are we? The policy makers, those who peer reviewed or just you? 

 

The study you've constantly hailed as impressive evidence 100% with no doubts, case closed. (I can link you to your previous posts on this) is not peer reviewed. Does not include 30 countries, only 14, I've pointed this out to you before, you've never acknowledged that deception and is extremely limited in its data of face mask usage, in addition the use of face masks in those countries was introduced well after the pandemic was underway and after lockdown measures. and as such has lead the authors to stipulate that it is preliminary findings not to be used for policy making. Thats its conclusion no matter what cherry picking you continue to copy from it.

[newatthis]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

Why don't you show us the study which proves that wearing a face mask reduces transmission or deaths related to SARS Cov2? The one which no doubt informs Boris Johnson's impeccable scientific approach, that is in no way underpinned by experts too busy with surveying OK Cupid for women.

Because I don't have to.

You presented an argument based on a published article.

 

2 hours ago, newatthis said:

"We found that closure of education facilities, prohibiting mass gatherings and closure of some non-essential businesses were associated with reduced incidence whereas stay at home orders, closure of all non-businesses and requiring the wearing of facemasks or coverings in public was not associated with any independent additional impact. Our results could help inform strategies for coming out of lockdown."

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1

All I did was to present the pre-amble from the article:

 

From the article:

This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice.

 

You presented this article as a fact to back-up your argument, but you completely ignored the fact stated in the preamble "and so should not be used to guide clinical practice."

Edited May 12, 2020 by newatthis
Reset

[Dumbastheycome]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

No, someone saying so is not 'proof' Yinn.

 

Proof would be a study where you can show that it was face masks, and not some other measure, that resulted in a reduction of cases or deaths related to SARS Cov2. That would be proof.

 

If you have such proof would be awesome if you could share it with the forum.

 

Thanks.

In clutching to what seems to  be an obsessive objection to the concept of masks as any measure at all of protection and in that process repeatedly claim the results of a mathematical model which, by the admission of the authors, was unable to conclusively distinguish effectiveness of some individual components of combined aspects of mitigation but which "suggests" wearing masks is not effective is your "Proof".

Personally I would rather have people in the public arena who cough or sneeze into a mask than to spray the air with whatever possible infection they may have. And in that scenario  there is much "proof" that it is effective. That those same people may also touch contaminate surfaces is of a lesser concern because that cross infection potential can be more easily averted  by appropriate hand washing.

 

 

 

[Logosone]

25 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

"we've" seen they're not very useful as evidence? Who are we? The policy makers, those who peer reviewed or just you? 

 

The study you've constantly hailed as impressive evidence 100% with no doubts, case closed. (I can link you to your previous posts on this) is not peer reviewed. Does not include 30 countries, only 14, I've pointed this out to you before, you've never acknowledged that deception and is extremely limited in its data of face mask usage, in addition the use of face masks in those countries was introduced well after the pandemic was underway and after lockdown measures. and as such has lead the authors to stipulate that it is preliminary findings not to be used for policy making. Thats its conclusion no matter what cherry picking you continue to copy from it.

All of us, the top scientists who advise the government in the UK and decide on policy actually addressed the mask issue. Just like some of peer reviews I quoted earlier, and my own analysis of the studies you quoted, the government scientists also had problems with the evidence:

 

"The government’s scientific advisory group for emergencies (Sage) met on Tuesday to review the evidence on wearing face masks. The Guardian understands that the group is split on the best policy to adopt because the evidence is so weak."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/apr/21/scientists-join-calls-for-uk-public-to-wear-homemade-face-masks-outdoors

 

 

[Canuck1966]

One for Yinn to wear at the beach

[transam]

4 minutes ago, Canuck1966 said:

One for Yinn to wear at the beach

Won't get the beard in that...........????

[Logosone]

30 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

The study you've constantly hailed as impressive evidence 100% with no doubts, case closed. (I can link you to your previous posts on this) is not peer reviewed. Does not include 30 countries, only 14, I've pointed this out to you before, you've never acknowledged that deception and is extremely limited in its data of face mask usage, in addition the use of face masks in those countries was introduced well after the pandemic was underway and after lockdown measures. and as such has lead the authors to stipulate that it is preliminary findings not to be used for policy making. Thats its conclusion no matter what cherry picking you continue to copy from it.

I want to post separately on this fail on your part, because you are 100% wrong on this issue. The study you refer to did look at the data of 30 countries. Just look for yourself at the announcement by one of the universities involved:

 

"Researchers studied the success of different social distancing measures across 30 European countries – in terms of how effective they have been at reducing the number of Covid-19 cases and deaths.

They found that closing schools, prohibiting mass gatherings and the closure of some non-essential business, particularly in the hospitality sector, were the most effective at stopping the spread of the disease.

Enforcing the wearing of facemasks in public was not found to make additional impact."

 

https://www.uea.ac.uk/about/-/new-study-reveals-blueprint-for-getting-out-of-covid-19-lockdown

 

The fact that you believe that because some European countries did not make wearing masks mandatory this somehow weakens the study shows that you do not understand it. That is precisely the strength of this study. The researchers were able to compare the data in countries where no mask duty existed with the data where a mask duty was introduced. That is precisely the strength of this study and which allowed it to do the almost impossible and untangle the effect of each measure in a fairly precise way by comparison of data in different countries. It was a brilliant idea. No wonder Public Health England wanted to fund this study.

 

Yes, the authors are highly careful, but even so, after they make the "preliminary" qualification they continue right away to state clearly:

 

"... but what results are available do not support their widespread use in the community"

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

 

 

[Logosone]

21 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Personally I would rather have people in the public arena who cough or sneeze into a mask than to spray the air with whatever possible infection they may have. And in that scenario  there is much "proof" that it is effective. That those same people may also touch contaminate surfaces is of a lesser concern because that cross infection potential can be more easily averted  by appropriate hand washing.

Or you could do like Howard Hughes and out of fear of a virus lock yourself in a room for the rest of your life.

 

Unfortunately for him, he still died.

[BritManToo]

5 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Or you could do like Howard Hughes and out of fear of a virus lock yourself in a room for the rest of your life.

Unfortunately for him, he still died.

Howard Hughes ....... everyone though he was bonkers, but he was just 50 years ahead of his time.

Edited May 12, 2020 by BritManToo

[vermin on arrival]

15 minutes ago, Logosone said:

All of us, the top scientists who advise the government in the UK and decide on policy actually addressed the mask issue.

 

Are you one of the top scientists advising the UK on policy?

 

There seems to be a big divide between the Asian and western medical communities on this issue. I may not be being scientific enough, but I favor the Asian approach for pragmatic/common sense reasons, with which many might find fault. I don't think all the Asian Health Ministries and doctor's associations are led by unscientific fools (or maybe just 1). I think there will be a lot more studies on this coming out soon. I think there are many reasons for differing approaches having success. Obviously, I respectfully disagree with your viewpoint.

[BritManToo]

Just now, vermin on arrival said:

but I favor the Asian approach for pragmatic/common sense reasons,

Asians see face-masks as a 'magic talisman', if you wear it anywhere on your body, you will be safe.

Don't believe me look at Anutin, Thai health minister, he wears his around his neck, the magic will keep him safe.

 

PS

Would point out no 'top scientists' ever advise governments.

They get their advice from 'kiss ass' scientists who sold out a long time ago.

Edited May 12, 2020 by BritManToo

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, Logosone said:

I want to post separately on this fail on your part, because you are 100% wrong on this issue. The study you refer to did look at the data of 30 countries. Just look for yourself at the announcement by one of the universities involved:

 

"Researchers studied the success of different social distancing measures across 30 European countries – in terms of how effective they have been at reducing the number of Covid-19 cases and deaths.

They found that closing schools, prohibiting mass gatherings and the closure of some non-essential business, particularly in the hospitality sector, were the most effective at stopping the spread of the disease.

Enforcing the wearing of facemasks in public was not found to make additional impact."

 

https://www.uea.ac.uk/about/-/new-study-reveals-blueprint-for-getting-out-of-covid-19-lockdown

 

The fact that you believe that because some European countries did not make wearing masks mandatory this somehow weakens the study shows that you do not understand it. That is precisely the strength of this study. The researchers were able to compare the data in countries where no mask duty existed with the data where a mask duty was introduced. That is precisely the strength of this study and which allowed it to do the almost impossible and untangle the effect of each measure in a fairly precise way by comparison of data in different countries. It was a brilliant idea. No wonder Public Health England wanted to fund this study.

 

Yes, the authors are highly careful, but even so, after they make the "preliminary" qualification they continue right away to state clearly:

 

"... but what results are available do not support their widespread use in the community"

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

 

 

No I'm saying that data was only derived from 14 countries on mask wearing and even in those, they were introduced far to late to make any comparison accurate, you'll also notice they acknowledge that another study concluded that community facemask use could reduce the spread of COVID-19:

 

Our findings on facemasks or coverings are perhaps counterintuitive especially given the strong debate on their use. In a recent systematic review we concluded that the evidence in favour of face mask use outside of hospital was weak. On the other hand a recent modelling study concluded that community facemask use could reduce the spread of COVID-19.27 Our results on face coverings should be considered to be preliminary because the use of coverings was recommended or required only relatively late in the epidemics in each European country. The results for face covering are too preliminary to inform policy but indicates that face covering as an intervention merits close monitoring. 

 

 

[Thaiwrath]

5 hours ago, Yinn said:

Boris yesterday told the UK people to wear mask in shops or public transport. 

Good idea. 

 

Will safe life. Sure.

From a UK paper:

The PM’s official spokesman said: “It is advice. So we’re publishing that today and it’s for the public to judge whether or not this is something they want to follow. 

“It’s not something that is part of the regulations - you won’t be fined for not wearing a face mask.”

 

If that is TELLING people to wear a mask, as opposed to advising so, your English is better than mine, and I had a good education !

[vermin on arrival]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

Asians see face-masks as a 'magic talisman', if you wear it anywhere on your body, you will be safe.

Don't believe me look at Anutin, Thai health minister, he wears his around his neck, the magic will keep him safe.

Well I did say maybe just one...but most Asians aren't using it that way. Certainly not in HK and Taiwan, but am sure you can find pictures where some have them off. Very rare to see them hanging off inside stores here, at least in BKK.

 

Taipei subway