Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[John CS]

On 7/27/2020 at 10:05 AM, innosiem said:

completely false and mis-leading propaganda article
the numbers paint a completely different picture

 

 

Mortality rate risk based on Age

(Data from CDC & WHO) see below, these are very low risks, probably in line with normal life..obviously the I'll and impaired are at risk.

 

Additional to this herd immunity is around 25% , so majority of the population are not affected, herd immunity lower than previously thought because it is NOT a novel coronavirus, as was previously stated.

There are some disgraceful and liable acts before the law in all this mess,

Media fear mongering and misrepresentation.

Govt illegal & unjustified actions in removing citizens rights and enforcing lockdowns , and destruction of the small business economies ( globalist wish) you lockdown prisoners, not your citizens, this subtle terminology will not go unacknowledged by the zealous authorities.

Citizens stand up for your rights in all countries

[thaibeachlovers]

On 7/8/2020 at 11:33 AM, tlock said:

 

Interesting, I believe you are in NZ correct?  Are bars and clubs, etc. open?  Are large gatherings permitted (concerts, etc.)?  Are there any remnants of social distancing, masks, etc?  I'm trying to determine if anywhere in the world is 100% open at this point.

While we are in level 1, which is hard to work out if meaning anything at all, far as I know there are no obvious restrictions. Certainly no one is behaving like there are. Hardly anyone wears masks where I am, but that was normal even during full lockdown. Don't see any social distancing.

The problem is that there are no overseas tourists so certain sectors are going broke, and when the work subsidy stops the , IMO. At the moment, everything seems like before lockdown, but that may be just where I am. Other places may be different

 

The main ( ?only ) policy at the moment is apparently closed borders, but a lot of people are still coming in, though supposed to stay in managed isolation for 14 days.

 

Time will tell if it works, but early days, early days.

[Stygge]

The english analys firm Capital Economics states that Sweden has the best financial successrate in Europe this year thanks to not locking the country down.

[scammed]

On 7/8/2020 at 5:57 AM, geriatrickid said:

It is not about deaths, but the cost of the  illness itself and the damage it does.

The biggest impact on the decreased case load  is most likely weather related.

Denmark has been open since mid May. Switzerland, Norway started reopening in May.

Canada started reopening in June.

Not only did these countries have better outcomes than Sweden, their economies are starting to show signs of improvement.

Australia has a  location specific lockdown because many locals there refused to behave responsibly and would not respect some  simple requests. This contrasts to the Swedish people who as a whole did not abandon common sense and behave like jerks. not comparable.

 

you got that backwards, sweden did better then the rest financially and in fact gdp went up 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/29/coronavirus-swedens-gdp-actually-grew-in-the-first-quarter.html

 

to be sure being an exporting country swedens economy too

will drop as the rest of the world collapses under their self imposed famine

[Stygge]

 

BBC seem positive

Many deaths among old folks in the beginning of the pandemic because of negligence but now the deathrate dramatically down and the economy seem to benefit from the relative low restrictions on the population.

BBC: Coronavirus: Sweden's economy hit less hard by pandemic
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53664354
 

[Logosone]

28 minutes ago, Stygge said:

 

BBC seem positive

Many deaths among old folks in the beginning of the pandemic because of negligence but now the deathrate dramatically down and the economy seem to benefit from the relative low restrictions on the population.

 

 

BBC: Coronavirus: Sweden's economy hit less hard by pandemic
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53664354
 

 

Well done Sweden for not going into panic mode. I see the deaths per day well and truly reduced in Sweden, excellent to see. The WHO was right, Sweden is a model for the world.

 

 

[simple1]

On 8/4/2020 at 9:52 AM, scammed said:

you got that backwards, sweden did better then the rest financially and in fact gdp went up 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/29/coronavirus-swedens-gdp-actually-grew-in-the-first-quarter.html

 

to be sure being an exporting country swedens economy too

will drop as the rest of the world collapses under their self imposed famine

 

 

 

The report you linked is two months old. More recent research, in comparison to other Nordic countries states...

 

various forecasts predict the Swedish economy will still shrink by about 5% this year. That's less than other countries hit hard by Covid-19 such as Italy, Spain and the UK, but still similar to the rest of Scandinavia. Sweden's unemployment rate of 9% remains the highest in the Nordics, up from 7.1% in March.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53498133

[Bkk Brian]

Aside from the historical death rate Sweden is currently doing ok with the virus seemingly under control however there are it is still showing over 300 new positive cases most days and yesterday there were an additional 13 deaths.

 

"Tegnell: 'If we see problems again, we'll look at face masks and other measures"

 

There are a growing number of parents voicing their concerns of having to force their children into school despite them having underlying health reasons to keep them away, threats from Social Services are being issued to them.

[Logosone]

9 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Aside from the historical death rate Sweden is currently doing ok with the virus seemingly under control however there are it is still showing over 300 new positive cases most days and yesterday there were an additional 13 deaths.

 

"Tegnell: 'If we see problems again, we'll look at face masks and other measures"

 

There are a growing number of parents voicing their concerns of having to force their children into school despite them having underlying health reasons to keep them away, threats from Social Services are being issued to them.

So Sweden has reduced its new deaths to zero without using face masks.

 

That's interesting isn't it?

 

Clearly more evidence face masks are not needed.

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

So Sweden has reduced its new deaths to zero without using face masks.

 

That's interesting isn't it?

 

Clearly more evidence face masks are not needed.

No wrong, as I never said Sweden had reduced its new deaths to zero, maybe you should read my post again, I said a new 13 covid deaths. However to add to that there was an additional 6 on yesterdays following report. The covid positive count also went up 426 new cases detected yesterday, the highest figure since 16th July.

 

Regarding these new spikes,Anders Tegnell pointed out that the increase among young adults is still cause for concern. "It's a bad sign, because this is how it started once upon a time and there is a clear risk that it starts to spread in that group but then spreads to other groups that could get significantly more ill," he told today's press conference, urging young adults to also keep following health and safety recommendations.

 

"Tegnell: 'If we see problems again, we'll look at face masks and other measures"

 

Hey, why don't you take up the new WHO mask challenge, send them a photo wearing one, would make a great thread on TVF!

 

"This week, we’re also launching a mask challenge with partners from around the world and we’re encouraging people to send in photos of themselves wearing a mask.

As well as being one of the key tools to stop the virus, the mask has come to represent solidarity." 

https://www.who.int/dg/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing-on-covid-19---3-august-2020

[geriatrickid]

On 8/3/2020 at 7:30 PM, Stygge said:

The english analys firm Capital Economics states that Sweden has the best financial successrate in Europe this year thanks to not locking the country down.

It did not say anything of the kind. The comment compared Sweden's results to SOUTHERN EUROPE. You know, the part of Europe already in crisis before  the pandemic?

 

You are not comparing Sweden to its peer group of Denmark, Norway and Finland.

- How did Denmark do? I see a   GDP loss of under 3%

- Norway is approximately -6%

- Finland is aproxmately -6.5%

Hardly the horror show you want to present. Sweden did worse  than them, but I wouldn't make a fuss over Sweden's 8% shrinkage and say how "bad"Sweden did.  Although, worse than its peers, those peers were in better shape at the start of the crisis, so I accept that  the comparison must be tempered.

 

So how about   being fair when offering a comparison.

 Italy  had its economic crisis underway prior to the  pandemic. It  only had a GDP growth of 0.3% in 2019. Awful.
The  quarantine of Milan and severe restrictions were not really  wanted, but were forced on the country because of the  horrific impact of Covid19. The country was caught unprepared, had an elderly population and  was already in economic trouble. No one knew  what to expect in the early part of the crisis.

Spain was already in economic crisis.

 

More importantly one should not cherry pick comments;

-David Oxley, senior Europe economist at Capital Economics, told CNBC via email that Sweden’s sharp GDP contraction “confirms that it has not been immune to Covid, despite the government’s well-documented light-touch lockdown.”-  “Nonetheless, the economic crunch over the first half of the year was in a different league entirely to the horror shows in southern Europe,” he added.

 

Sweden's results reflect the  strong  well managed economy prior to Covid19.

The pandemic just weakened the  economies which were in bad shape.  Denmark, Finland, Norway like Sweden were well managed and had stable economic policies and more importantly a strong social services infrastructure which  supported   their  economic resilience.

[Stygge]

Partly true. But. Sweden should really compare to the rest of Europe and not to it´s scandinavian neighbours. In the end of february Sweden had "Winter holiday" with a large number of people, especially from Stockholm, went to Italy and Austria for skiing. A large number came back infected without knowing it and before the virus was seen as a threat and spread the infection in the Stockholm area. It caught on in the immigrant dense suburbs where they were unable to take precautions and in just in a couple of weeks the virus had a massive spread out of reach for individual tracing. It was enough for Sweden to get far behind it´s neighbours right from the start.

Ad the fact that the staff in elderly homes largely consist of immigrants prone to be infected, the virus spread uncontrollably among the vulnerable. These mistakes or unpreparedness just in the end of February - beginning of March explains the uncontrolled spread that took some weeks to stop.
After a bad start Sweden managed to curb the spread and the emergency wards were never in danger of being overwhelmed. So, Sweden had an earlier, large and unprepared outbreak before Europe was really aware of the danger of the virus, and before its scandinavian neighbours.

 

[farang51]

1 hour ago, Stygge said:

Sweden should really compare to the rest of Europe and not to it´s scandinavian neighbours.

 

Yeah, because that certainly puts Sweden in a bad light. Better compare them to less comparable countries.

 

1 hour ago, Stygge said:

In the end of february Sweden had "Winter holiday" with a large number of people, especially from Stockholm, went to Italy and Austria for skiing.

Same same the other Scandinavian countries. The first case in Sweden (aside from a Chinese tourist) was February 27th. The first case in Denmark was February 27th. The first case in Norway was February 26th. The first case in Finland (aside from a Chinese tourist ) was February 26th. So, no, Sweden did not have an earlier, large and unprepared outbreak before its Scandinavian neighbours.

Edited August 6, 2020 by farang51

[Stygge]

On 8/6/2020 at 11:34 PM, farang51 said:

Yeah, because that certainly puts Sweden in a bad light. Better compare them to less comparable countries.

 

Same same the other Scandinavian countries. The first case in Sweden (aside from a Chinese tourist) was February 27th. The first case in Denmark was February 27th. The first case in Norway was February 26th. The first case in Finland (aside from a Chinese tourist ) was February 26th. So, no, Sweden did not have an earlier, large and unprepared outbreak before its Scandinavian neighbours.

Yes, the other scandinavian countries also have some winter holiday I´m sure but not neccesarily the same time. And the specific corona hotspots in Italy and Austria were particular "swedish ski resorts".

 

[Stygge]

Daily Mail seem to reconsider Swedens corona aproach.
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8607731/Why-Sweden-pilloried-world-refusing-lock-having-laugh.html?ito=whatsapp_share_article-masthead
 

I think we will be seeing more of these reevaluations in th future.

[torturedsole]

Not sure why people are getting so hung up about new cases. 99.9% of new cases will experience next to no medical issues and everyone's so aware now that they're hardly likely to go off and infect the infirm on purpose.  Isolate the infirm and allow the healthy to deal with a very minor virus.  

[geriatrickid]

 

26 minutes ago, Stygge said:

Daily Mail seem to reconsider Swedens corona aproach.
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8607731/Why-Sweden-pilloried-world-refusing-lock-having-laugh.html?ito=whatsapp_share_article-masthead
 

I think we will be seeing more of these reevaluations in th future.

You are unable to distinguish between a factual report and an OPINION piece. Birell  was opposed to any restrictions from day one. He is also anti face mask.

You toss out an opinion piece that supports your political view, and that does not offer factual evidence.

 

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

Not sure why people are getting so hung up about new cases. 99.9% of new cases will experience next to no medical issues and everyone's so aware now that they're hardly likely to go off and infect the infirm on purpose.  Isolate the infirm and allow the healthy to deal with a very minor virus.  

Where did you get your 99.9% data? 

The current  data shows that  20% of the infected in western countries require  hospitalization.  How do you know that  infected people do not have medical issues? It  takes time for some  infections to manifest their damage, and this is particularly demonstrated with respiratory illnesses.

Infirm people are not  necessarily at risk. It is people with  pre-existing immunological susceptibilities. This is seen with  people who have heart disease, diabetes, cancer, lupus, addisons, and cognitive disorders. Although those over the age of 60 are deemed  higher risk,  we are seeing the physical damage present itself in younger patients now that more of them are becoming infected. We can't isolate the 30% + of the population at risk. Nor can we afford the cost of the infections and shut downs that occur when a workplace becomes infected.

 

 

[farang51]

38 minutes ago, Stygge said:

Yes, the other scandinavian countries also have some winter holiday I´m sure but not neccesarily the same time. And the specific corona hotspots in Italy and Austria were particular "swedish ski resorts".

 

Did you not see the dates in my post? The virus started at the same time in the Scandinavian countries; February 26th and 27th.

 

When comparing the result, Norway and Finland is the best fit for comparison. Denmark is much more densely populated; still, even Denmark has much fewer deaths than Sweden (106 deaths per million versus 566 per million). The effect on the economy is more or less the same in Denmark and Sweden (actually, experts expect Denmark to fare a little better this year).

[torturedsole]

3 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

The current  data shows that  20% of the infected in western countries require  hospitalization. 

I've had it and at least half my colleagues and friends reckon they contracted C19 back in February / March this year.  Not one event of hospitalisation of anyone due to C19.  My employer has a large presence in the UK so not insignificant numbers either.  

[geriatrickid]

1 hour ago, torturedsole said:

I've had it and at least half my colleagues and friends reckon they contracted C19 back in February / March this year.  Not one event of hospitalisation of anyone due to C19.  My employer has a large presence in the UK so not insignificant numbers either.  

And you had the multiple diagnostic tests that confirmed the infection? I too had the  bad cold that was circulating in January and then I had the cough that didn't go away in February and March. That was not Covid19.  We now have a good idea of the percentages of the general population who had Covid19 and the information was taken from the tests administered and from  blood donations. The most  recent published daya is for canada, 2.5%. The UK is up around 3% with data to come. That is from the actual data, not from the land of make believe,

 

Even though you did not require hospitalization does not mean that other people did not.

 

What we know is that  as the  disease moves away from the higher at risk groups to those  younger, the severity of the infection  reduces. You are  not providing actual data, but your opinion based upon what you want to believe.  As millions of under 20 year olds become infected as they go back to school, the hospitalization rates should  drop. This does not mean that the disease  is any less dangerous, because it will still lay waste to the 45+ age demographic, knocking some out for weeks and killing others.

 

What exactly do you know about this  infection? What do you know? You say you were infected. Ok. . Now tell us the condition of your lungs. You know because you have the xray or the scan that shows their condition, right?  You insist that  once  "recovered" there is no ongoing damage. How's your disposition to blood clotting now? Did you check your enzymes?

What I know is the  that there are physical changes in significant  numbers of the population to warrant concern. Some people will heal on their own, but others will carry the damage for many months or for the rest of their lives. What do you think happens to people who have had pneumonia? Do you think everyone goes back to normal? Do you not realize that  often there is  damage done which makes these patients  more susceptible to an illness. You know who is more likely to suffer from respiratory illness severity going forward? people who have had a respiratory illness.

Why do we have to keep explaining over and over and over again  what the effect of cumulative damage is?  If people just died it would be easier to manage, but they don't die. They end up like  a sizable group who now report ongoing lung capacity issues and fatigue.

Edited August 10, 2020 by geriatrickid

[Peter Denis]

Time to revive this thread with an interesting article!

How bad is covid really? (A Swedish doctor’s perspective) – Sebastian Rushworth M.D.

I always like a Common Sense perspective, and that's exactly what this easy to read article provides.

[Bender Rodriguez]

19 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Time to revive this thread with an interesting article!

How bad is covid really? (A Swedish doctor’s perspective) – Sebastian Rushworth M.D.

I always like a Common Sense perspective, and that's exactly what this easy to read article provides.

is the economy dead in sweden ?

did it do worse than belgium, netherlands, france, italy, spain, uk ????

[Throatwobbler]

On 8/11/2020 at 3:03 AM, torturedsole said:

I've had it and at least half my colleagues and friends reckon they contracted C19 back in February / March this year.  Not one event of hospitalisation of anyone due to C19.  My employer has a large presence in the UK so not insignificant numbers either.  

No you didn’t.

[steelepulse]

The telegraph seems to think Sweden got it right.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/12/swedens-success-shows-true-cost-arrogant-failed-establishment/

 

So now we know: Sweden got it largely right, and the British establishment catastrophically wrong. Anders Tegnell, Stockholm’s epidemiologist-king, has pulled off a remarkable triple whammy: far fewer deaths per capita than Britain, a maintenance of basic freedoms and opportunities, including schooling, and, most strikingly, a recession less than half as severe as our own....

[farang51]

26 minutes ago, steelepulse said:

So now we know: Sweden got it largely right, and the British establishment catastrophically wrong. Anders Tegnell, Stockholm’s epidemiologist-king, has pulled off a remarkable triple whammy: far fewer deaths per capita than Britain, a maintenance of basic freedoms and opportunities, including schooling, and, most strikingly, a recession less than half as severe as our own....

If you at this point compare Sweden to any other country than the one that failed the most, it is clear that Sweden failed.

[Bender Rodriguez]

14 hours ago, farang51 said:

If you at this point compare Sweden to any other country than the one that failed the most, it is clear that Sweden failed.

please explain

 

no crashed economy and deaths not worse than BELGIUM

[farang51]

24 minutes ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

please explain

 

no crashed economy and deaths not worse than BELGIUM

You cannot compare Sweden (or any other country) with Belgium when it comes to the coronavirus. In Belgium, they count the deaths different from any other country.

 

Also, you do not measure success by comparing yourself (or Sweden) to the ones doing worst; unless you know, you are doing badly, and you do not want to look like a failure.

 

If you compare Sweden with the other Nordic countries, Sweden is doing far worse on the death count, and their economy is not doing better than the other countries. Purposely comparing Swedens results with any other countries than the most relevant countries is just being dishonest.

[Sujo]

On 7/8/2020 at 7:04 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Please explain how, when a vaccine is not available and may not ever be, society can survive in a potentially unlimited lockdown?

As long as herd immunity is not reached, second and subsequent waves are inevitable as soon as restrictions are lifted.

 

I see that you think all people should behave like sheeple. Not something most will accept.

Those that wish to hide in their closet for fear of the Corona are welcome to do so, but some of us don't want to.

Why arent you actively trying to get the virus so you can get immunity?

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/22/2020 at 5:09 PM, Sujo said:

Why arent you actively trying to get the virus so you can get immunity?

Perhaps because there isn't any where I live, just as there isn't any in most of NZ, which you must know if you have been paying attention.

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[steelepulse]

On 8/21/2020 at 8:15 PM, farang51 said:

If you at this point compare Sweden to any other country than the one that failed the most, it is clear that Sweden failed.

Sweden, like the US, Italy etc. let this get into long term care for the elderly, that was their mistake.  If you want to take a look at the average age of death of these cases, they are the same age as pre covid.  

 

Now, Sweden has clear sailing and life is normal.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8652523/No-lockdown-no-hysteria-DOMINIC-SANDBROOK-asks-Sweden-proof-got-terribly-wrong.html