Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[Susco]

3 minutes ago, chessman said:

You could explain the other factors that are to Sweden’s advantage such as one of the highest percentages of ‘single’ households in the world.

 

you could also suggest they compare Sweden to it’s neighbouring countries that are more demographically, culturally and geographically similar. 

So you agree that the Sweden results are nothing special, and are not applicable to other countries for many reasons?

[yuyiinthesky]

17 minutes ago, Susco said:

Belgium 12 Million population 30.000 sq. km

 

Spain 47 Million population 505.000 sq.km

 

France  67 Million population  643.000 sq. km

 

Italy  60 Million population 300.000 sq. km

 

Sweden 10 Million population  450.000 sq. km

 

Need to explain more?

This is misleading. Sweden's cases have been mainly in Stockholm, and Stockholm has a density even higher than London. So you could compare Stockholm with London, if you want to compare similar density.

[chessman]

3 minutes ago, Susco said:

So you agree that the Sweden results are nothing special, and are not applicable to other countries for many reasons?

I think they are more applicable to Denmark, Norway and Finland. And the comparison does not look good for Sweden.

 

my point was that population density is important but is not the only factor. 

[chessman]

1 minute ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Sweden's cases have been mainly in Stockholm, and Stockholm has a density even higher than London. So you could compare Stockholm with London, if you want to compare similar density.

This argument doesn’t make sense. What you are saying shows that density is really important...

[yuyiinthesky]

36 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The presence if antibodies does not automatically give immunity.

 

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2020/4/28/21237922/antibody-test-covid-19-immunit

The detection of antibodies to Covid-19 is not enough to declare a person immune because we don’t yet know how immunity to this virus works.

 

"is not enough to declare a person immune because we don’t yet know how", well, that does not mean that there is no immunity, and that does not even mean that immunity would be not likely, not to be expected. It simply means that the author of that article does not know yet in a scientifically proven way.

Btw, there might even be immunity without antibodies.
 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Sweeden didn't spread out the infections over time with lockdowns, so it makes sense they would have more deaths on the front-end (though not enough to overwhelm the medical-system), with fewer in future months, after most all residents gain immunity. 

 

As their population will reach herd immunity faster, their elderly and infirm can come back out of self-isolation sooner.  But, they would need to shut down their borders to make that work, because the rest of the world will be carriers of the disease for a longer period of time.

 

Johns Hopkins daily COVID report of May 15 doesn't sound so great for Sweden.

 

Quote

Additionally, Armenia, Belarus, Moldova, and Sweden are exhibiting elevated per capita daily incidence. Moldova is reporting approximately 4 times the global per capita daily incidence, Armenia approximately 5 times the global average, Sweden 6 times the global average, and Belarus nearly 10 times the global average. For reference, the United States is currently reporting approximately 6-7 times the global average.

 

[Heppinger]

Percentage of population aged 65 or over.

 

Gaza Strip: 2.58%

Congo: 2.69%

Liberia: 2.85%

Cambodia: 4.3%

Burma: 5.67%

Vietnam: 6.35%

Turkey: 7.79%

Thailand: 10.97%

China: 11.25%

Taiwan: 14.36%

South Korea: 14.55%

Russia: 14.65%

USA: 16.03%

Australia: 16.44%

Spain: 18.15%

Canada: 19.08%

Netherlands: 19.1%

France: 19.82%

Sweden: 20.37%

Italy: 21.69%

Germany: 22.36%

 

[JensenZ]

 

9 hours ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

all this panic over what?

 

look what Sweden did and still does

 

the rest of the world is in lockdown and economic meltdown

Sweden has one of the highest mortality rates in the world. Of course this depends on the number tested, but using today's stats of deaths/confirmed cases (mortality rate):

 

UK:   14.36%

Italy: 14.12%

Sweden: 12.48%

Spain: 10.00%

New York State: 7.83%

USA: 5.96%

 

Thailand: 2.02%

Australia: 1.39%

 

Norway: 0.24%

 

It would seem Sweden has not been as successful as you're suggesting. Their neighbour Norway which has locked down is doing much better.

 

We'll need a lot more time to make a meaningful analysis of how they did. It's too early to start using "stupid" to describe the rest of the world.

 

 

 

[talahtnut]

6 minutes ago, marqus12 said:

I wrote on the forum in my native language 2 months ago that it will be like that.

'Sweden is doing it right, lock down is BS etc.'

I was called a serial killer who wants old people dead ...55555 ..

by paid trolls and useful idi@$&ts

they needed people in fear, terrified of the coming plague, submissive.

'I am watching what I wrote about 30

years ago play out in real life-David Icke.

[kingdong]

58 minutes ago, nauseus said:

What if herd immunity is not achievable with this novel virus? There is a big herd on this thread that assumes that herd immunity is a given, almost a human right, but this is not known for sure as yet. And even if there is some immunity, it may not be long-lasting. 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/americans-call-herd-immunity-sweden-experiment-coronavirus-not-working-2020-5 

"And scientists are still uncertain if a COVID-19 infection even leads to immunity".

When Johnson went with the" herd immunity"at the onset of covid he was villified seems 4 months down the line all the so called experts ( apart from the ones on Thai visa ) still haven,t got a clue.

[yuyiinthesky]

11 minutes ago, chessman said:

This argument doesn’t make sense. What you are saying shows that density is really important...

Sorry, no, the density was not my argument, I simply told Susco that if he talks about the density and Sweden, that in order to have a meaningful comparison the vast empty forests should be taken out of the calculation.

If you want to examine the influence or importance of density, then look at Stockholm and London, compare them, not at the beautiful but empty forests, where not many people live beneath the trolls and elks, not even corona viruses.

[chessman]

2 minutes ago, kingdong said:

all the so called experts ( apart from the ones on Thai visa ) still haven,t got a clue.

I truly hope this is the kind of thing you might say in a pub (shame the pubs are closed) to get a discussion going and not something you actually believe.

[yuyiinthesky]

10 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

 

Sweden has one of the highest mortality rates in the world. Of course this depends on the number tested, but using today's stats of deaths/confirmed cases (mortality rate):

 

UK:   14.36%

Italy: 14.12%

Sweden: 12.48%

Spain: 10.00%

New York State: 7.83%

USA: 5.96%

 

Thailand: 2.02%

Australia: 1.39%

 

Norway: 0.24%

 

It would seem Sweden has not been as successful as you're suggesting. Their neighbour Norway which has locked down is doing much better.

 

We'll need a lot more time to make a meaningful analysis of how they did. It's too early to start using "stupid" to describe the rest of the world.

 

 

 

As you seem to say, if I understand you correctly, these numbers are misleading, meaningless as long as the factor "confirmed cases" is not determined everywhere using the same metrics, tests, etc.
 

[chessman]

1 minute ago, yuyiinthesky said:

If you want to examine the influence or importance of density, then look at Stockholm and London, compare them, not at the beautiful but empty forests, where not many people live beneath the trolls and elks, not even corona viruses.

Yeah but it’s the amount of urban centres. And how close they are to each other.  Sweden has one and it was really badly affected. The UK has many more large urban centres and they are all much closer. 

[kingdong]

5 minutes ago, chessman said:

I truly hope this is the kind of thing you might say in a pub (shame the pubs are closed) to get a discussion going and not something you actually believe.

Your concern for me has warmed the cockles of my heart.

[steelepulse]

If one were to look at the stats, 40% of all deaths in Sweden were from the Somali population, which makes up less than 1%, yet has been 40% of the deaths.  Add in the deaths from nursing homes with quite elderly people and comorbidities, and now you have 90+% of all the deaths in Sweden.

 

The Somalis were vitamin D deficient, as would be all the elderly in nursing homes.

 

I would bet if you take out the above population, the deaths of the rest of the population would be incredibly low.

[JensenZ]

6 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

As you seem to say, if I understand you correctly, these numbers are misleading, meaningless as long as the factor "confirmed cases" is not determined everywhere using the same metrics, tests, etc.
 

Of course they are not accurate without knowing how many have been tested per capita, but they don't give anyone the right to praise Sweden's response, do they? Their neighbour, Norway, is doing far better even if the degree of error is high.

Edited May 16, 2020 by JensenZ

[from the home of CC]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

Sweden is 6th in deaths per million if you ignore San Marino and Andorra, not great but we don't know the effect on Swedens GDP, suicides, deaths caused by not receiving medical treatment etc, that is where Sweden's numbers should be lower. The elephant in the room is the deaths caused by lockdowns

there's also a lack of information concerning possible long term damage to the body of survivors, this might not be a one and done for some..

[JensenZ]

4 minutes ago, steelepulse said:

If one were to look at the stats, 40% of all deaths in Sweden were from the Somali population, which makes up less than 1%, yet has been 40% of the deaths.  Add in the deaths from nursing homes with quite elderly people and comorbidities, and now you have 90+% of all the deaths in Sweden.

 

The Somalis were vitamin D deficient, as would be all the elderly in nursing homes.

 

I would bet if you take out the above population, the deaths of the rest of the population would be incredibly low.

No, I haven't seen the stats for deaths in Sweden broken down into race categories. Do you have an official source I could look at? Perhaps also for Norway and other European nations?

 

Regarding the death rates in elderly populations - that's universal in all nations and cannot be used for comparisons.

[Susco]

37 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

This is misleading. Sweden's cases have been mainly in Stockholm, and Stockholm has a density even higher than London. So you could compare Stockholm with London, if you want to compare similar density.

You must be joking

 

London has 15 Million people while Stockholm has 978.00 People.

 

 

[yuyiinthesky]

4 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

Of course they are not accurate without knowing how many have been tested per capita, but they don't give anyone the right to praise Sweden's response, do they. Their neighbour, Norway, are doing far better even if the degree of error is high.

These arguments were made a couple of times in this and in other threads, so I'll only say "time will tell" and refer to the other threads and posts where this was discussed already.

Despite my sympathy with the Swedish model I wish also all the other countries to suffer only the absolute minimum of deaths, be it from Covid-19 or from Influenza or from lockdowns and the economic problems it causes.

[yuyiinthesky]

1 minute ago, Susco said:

You must be joking

 

London has 15 Million people while Stockholm has 978.00 People.

Oh well, we talk about the density, not about the amount of people living there. London has a very big area.

And last time I was in Stockholm I got the strong impression there would be a few more than "978.00 people" living there ????

[Heppinger]

4 minutes ago, Susco said:

You must be joking

 

London has 15 Million people while Stockholm has 978.00 People.

 

 

Yet Stockholm Syndrome is running rampant.

[Sujo]

All I can see is some wanting to follow the science and some trying to find excuses not to do so.

[chessman]

17 minutes ago, steelepulse said:

If one were to look at the stats, 40% of all deaths in Sweden were from the Somali population

6 of the first 15 deaths in Sweden were Somali. This was well publiciced and people started saying 40%. Of course 3600 have died since then so that 40% stat wouldn’t be applicable. 

[steelepulse]

10 minutes ago, Sujo said:

All I can see is some wanting to follow the science and some trying to find excuses not to do so.

Science says if you are elderly, obese, diabetic, or have other comorbidities, best avoid the virus.  If you do not fall into these categories, than the chances of dying are right in line with other influenza viruses.  That's the science.

[yuyiinthesky]

12 minutes ago, Sujo said:

All I can see is some wanting to follow the science and some trying to find excuses not to do so.

So what is your excuse to not follow the science and the Swedish model?

[ukrules]

30 minutes ago, steelepulse said:

If one were to look at the stats, 40% of all deaths in Sweden were from the Somali population, which makes up less than 1%, yet has been 40% of the deaths.  Add in the deaths from nursing homes with quite elderly people and comorbidities, and now you have 90+% of all the deaths in Sweden.

 

The Somalis were vitamin D deficient, as would be all the elderly in nursing homes.

 

I would bet if you take out the above population, the deaths of the rest of the population would be incredibly low.

Interesting, where are you getting this from? The bit about the Somalis

[chessman]

5 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Interesting, where are you getting this from? The bit about the Somalis

From articles like this.

 

https://www.hstoday.us/subject-matter-areas/counterterrorism/when-religion-and-culture-kill-covid-19-in-the-somali-diaspora-communities-in-sweden/

 

it’s well meaning but the 40% comes from 6 out of the first 15 deaths in Stockholm... it’s not an up to date number.

[sead]

1 hour ago, Susco said:

 

Belgium 12 Million population 30.000 sq. km

 

Spain 47 Million population 505.000 sq.km

 

France  67 Million population  643.000 sq. km

 

Italy  60 Million population 300.000 sq. km

 

Sweden 10 Million population  450.000 sq. km

 

Need to explain more?

Oh well youre wrong if you want to include Sqm. No one lives on the 2/5 of upper Sweden. Its like 5%