Why Assimilate?

[Jingthing]

I have come to the conclusion that it is folly to assimilate too much in Thai culture, at least for retirees. I can see someone moving here in their 20s or 30s and starting a Thai family and Thai business would have a different perspective.

Why?

Almost none of us achieve permanent resident status.

For retirees, there is no path for permanent resident status.

The immigration rules appear to change all the time, sometimes in unpredictable, irrational, and downright passive-aggressive ways. We want you, we don't want you.

I feel that the key to really assimilating would be to become fluent in Thai language ... but ...

Thai is a lovely language. However, it is basically useless outside of Thailand. Sorry, but Thailand doesn't really have much great literature to read either. Why invest the time and effort in learning a language that you can't use when you are booted out? Contrast to Spanish.

I realize there is some contradiction with my attitude. It has occurred to me that the longer I live in Thailand, the more like a Thai I am. I breathe Thai air, eat lots of Thai food, and have adapted to the conditions here in Thailand. It would indeed be a massive culture shock to move back to the west after many years in Thailand. But thats just it, many of us will have to.

Edited April 20, 2007 by Jingthing

[Andrew Hicks]

i would presume it depends on where you choose to live in Thailand, you could quite easily live in Pattaya, Phuket or Bangkok without Assimilating (???) into any kind of 'Thai way of life' , however if you are living in a village in rural Isaan i would imagine life could be lonely or not that enjoyable if you made no effort to assimilate into the local community. But at the end of the day each to their own.

BB

So Buriramboy, you don't live in a village in Buriram? I guess I'm Surinboy because I live in a small village in Surin, but there's no way I could say I assimilate. I would never choose to and never could. Plant rice, eat pla raa, speak Lao, Suay and Kmen and drink lao khao at six in the morning?

I like being here because I find it genuinely interesting observing rural life unfolding around me. I can chat a bit in Thai and I eat no farang food, have no farang television and generally rub shoulders with the locals all of whom I know and really like. I am to a degree intergrated but not assimilated, and nobody asks me to be. They accept and respect me as being different and so far it's been a great experience.

If you'd like read more of my observations, some of them a mildly cynical take on farang/Thai relationships, do have a look at my blog on Thai Visa. It's called, 'You Can Score on Route 24'. (I guess I can say this without getting banned?)

Andrew Hicks... who is exactly who he says he is.

[onzestan]

When I am inside my House, as far as I am concerned, IT IS ENGLAND!

So inside your house the climate is terrible and the people are miserable ?

and the food is <deleted>

and they never wash......

I take offence at that sir, We wash at minimum once a year on "Good Friday " to be at our easter best, whether it was necessary or not.

[wolf359]

When I am inside my House, as far as I am concerned, IT IS ENGLAND!

So inside your house the climate is terrible and the people are miserable ?

and the food is <deleted>

and they never wash......

Oh so predictable, you convict comedians need new material !!!

[JacksonGlurk]

Just like my uncle used to say to me about this topic, that ….”It doesn't bother me that they don't try to assimilate. I would rather have them stay the way they are(if that's what they choose). It shows me who I want to be with, and who I want to avoid......

So you're saying that, as a Thai, you want to avoid people who aren't (or don't try to become) like Thais?

Yeah, that's exactly the way I always thought Thais saw the world......

[teacup]

So you're saying that, as a Thai, you want to avoid people who aren't (or don't try to become) like Thais?

Yeah, that's exactly the way I always thought Thais saw the world......

What I was saying (or rather my uncle) that….

If you move to another country, you should learn their language, period. I also believe in people retaining their culture and beliefs, as long as they do not interfere/offend with the local customs in which you are living in, and making also real efforts to connect with the existing everyday local people, no? If not, what's the point of migrating? It's not for you to come to a new place and demand that the local people here adapt to you by speaking your language and giving way to your culture. After all this is their country, not yours.

[alexth]

So you're saying that, as a Thai, you want to avoid people who aren't (or don't try to become) like Thais?

Yeah, that's exactly the way I always thought Thais saw the world......

What I was saying (or rather my uncle) that….

If you move to another country, you should learn their language, period. I also believe in people retaining their culture and beliefs, as long as they do not interfere/offend with the local customs in which you are living in, and making also real efforts to connect with the existing everyday local people, no? If not, what's the point of migrating? It's not for you to come to a new place and demand that the local people here adapt to you by speaking your language and giving way to your culture. After all this is their country, not yours.

I kind of agree with a part of your statement, some of the foreigner's expectations go way too far. On the other hand, almost everywhere I've been to before and stayed for a longer period of time (3 months +) I tried to learn as much as I could about the local's culture and customs, not only for knowledge and respect, but also in order to educate myself, something good might one day get out of it.

On the other hand, thais are very proud people that tend to overestimate themselfs and will not learn from foreigners unless really necessary. Many of us, at least me for one, appreciate some of the thai customs, traditions, ways of handling things and who doesn't, as far as I'm concerned is an idiot. But westerners are most likely to adapt to new conditions than thais do. In a nutshell, the "This is Thailand, we do it our way blah blah blah..." is not something to imbrace, it failed many times and since the world is trying harder and harder to get together, globalisation and stuff, this phrase is less and less healthy. Just my 2 satangs...

[ProThaiExpat]

Generalities are beginning to generate rancor, when most of the posts so far have been quite understanding.

Keep in mind that there are retirees who either by age or lack of language talent have failed to learn any Thia, even with major effort, except for perhaps put thai mai dai.

I have the tapes, the charts, the squares, the animated signs and the web pages and I am happy to ship them to any who are starting out to learn a language, but because of its tones, Thai has defeated me.

Sure I would like to go to the local market to buy vegetables, and speak to the lady vendors in Thai, even though I know I would be paying more than a Thai.

Had teacup's point of view been legislated and I would have had to demonstrate proficiency in Thai to retire here, I would not have done so. Having learned Spanish and Japanese in addition to my native English, in retirement I would prefer to enjoy my live here without being treated as a persona non grata because I am not acting politically correct. The Thai government, by allowing me to retire here, providing that I have the means to support a family, is achieving an economic policy for the benefit of Thailand in general.

No I do not expect Thais to speak English, no I don't expect Thais to treat me special, in fact I expect nothing from Thais in general other than to be allowed to live in peace and quiet in my last years, which they have done so, so far, much to my gratitude.

I would point out that there are many "compounds" in western countries, in which the residents reside behind high gates with entry guards and they are natives of their own countries. Doing so in a foreign country becomes an issue of political correctness, it would seem to me, the subject of my posts in this thread so far.

[torito]

No I do not expect Thais to speak English, no I don't expect Thais to treat me special, in fact I expect nothing from Thais in general other than to be allowed to live in peace and quiet in my last years, which they have done so, so far, much to my gratitude.

Very valid point. We are after all visitor in here.

I would presume, we should do simmilar than a Thai moving to our countries. If a Thai goes to Australia for instance, he must speak English and learn the Australian way (accept the racism among others).

It is impossible to move to a house which is not ours without some form of assimilation and adaptation.

Thailand is one of the most tolerant countries I have been (and I have been in many, like many of you I assume....but I am ethnic), and I have never seen nothing that attempt to force us to assimilate or even to adapt. Farangs in this country live in a fantasy world. We have freedom and priviledges we do not enjoy on our own countries.

'ProThaiExpat' is for me an example of a person who appreciates what he has, and who has his foot very well on the ground. Wish you well 'ProThaiExpat'.

[teacup]

When you choose to live in a country where people speak a different language, it just makes sense to learn the new language and also if you expect the same from others who go to your country, then you should do the same.

And I also agree, forcing something on some one is never a good idea. It is always the question what does this person want? If a person is happy in staying inside their own ghetto, so be it. Someone who wants to learn more about the country and the local culture will be interested to learn the language to understand better and get a more complete experience. Therefore I definitely leave this to every individual to decide for himself. No point in learning the language if one is not interested in mingling with the locals or learning more about the country they're living in. What would you achieve? If you’re already happy in your current situation, then that all is matter, isn’t it?

[ProThaiExpat]

Thank you torito for you good wishes. Your somewhat prophetic, as I am nearing the end of a five month no weight bearing regime for a broken left femur and indeed, I am indeed one "who has his foot very well on the ground" literally, during this period.

[Heng]

I'm Thai and I have no intention of ever learning to read or write Thai. I can speak because I was totally immersed in it.

Who's asking foreigners to assimilate? As far as I'm concerned foreigners only need to pay their rent on time and make sure they get the correct stamps/visas.

edit: ah, and obey the law as well.

Edited April 20, 2007 by Heng

[makrook]

I all agree with the fact that you have to adapt here.I'm living in a small village, have to speak fluent thai/lao and adopt some thai/lao ways (though hard for me, and clashes from time to time shows that pretty well), but don't want to ever assimilate here.

that's my choice anyway,

but then, would one want to, would the thais only permit that ?

sorry but the very feeling I have is that we, in the west, have the right to be a bit disapointed at the feeling expressed by that pakistani, because most of us (at least in france, my country, though racism is an issue there as well) do actually give them some chances to assimilate (and a lot of immigrants there do pretty well, while not forgetting their own roots, wich is perfectly ok and great for me).

but thais ? will a thai ever see a farang as possibly be a true part of this country ???????

yes, I know, a couple of farangs, mowlaam singers have did it, but beside those statistically totally insignificant exceptions, could you only dream if it was your wish that thais would stop looking at you as a farang, stop saying "farang, farang" stop considering "farang" (or worse "baksida") is your name (couldn't bother go beyong that, though mine is only two simple syllabes), and really accept you as one of theirs ? I'm on my way towards some of this with my gf family (SOME of this, don't dream neither and everyday reality and speech would anyway prove me wrong would I expect more) but have no hope whatsoever with the others.

sorry for the very educated and reasonable thais speaking here, but your country has integrated a huge amount of racism in it's ways, to the point you don't see it and consider it just normal.

that doesn't mean I or we all feel bad in thailand, thais do not hate us, a lot treat us pretty good, but they in general just can't accept we're from the same human specie.

my 2 satangs.

[mosquitoman]

Good thread guys, some intelligent points being made.

I for one try to assimilate, buts it takes patience and hard work, however the rewards are fantastic.

MM

[somtaamgaiyang]

Back in the UK I would often nod in agreement at complaints that Immigrants did not appear to want to assimilate into British society.

In fact I actually asked a Pakistani why he and his family lived in UK but retained their Asian

customs........."Why should we" he replied " We don't like your Customs and Culture".

So I asked "Why are you here then?"

"Because we can have a better standard of living" was his reply.

Now I find myself seeing his point of view more clearly.......

I have almost no desire to 'Go native'. Although I respect Thai Culture, it is not MY Culture.

When I am inside my House, as far as I am concerned, IT IS ENGLAND!

I quite like Buddhism. But it is NOT my Religion. So I don't go to the Temple with my Wife.

I don't support MY Family in the UK. So why should I support HER Family, who are almost complete strangers?

But,I happily give my beloved Wife a better standard of living than she ever dreamed of.......

Yeah! Yeah! I hear the "When in Rome" brigade firing salvoes. But I don't think I am being unreasonable do you?

I worked very hard for every penny I have, and I object to the idea that I must now meekly hand it over.......After all if I get sick I will need it to pay the Hospital bills.

What goes on in my house, is my decision, period.

Whether your wife will put up with it and if you can handle not mixing with the locals as much others, i don't know, but if you are happy doing it, so be it. At least there is absolutely no ambiguity between you and everyone else which causes more problems in the long run anyway.

[aussiestyle1983]

Back in the UK I would often nod in agreement at complaints that Immigrants did not appear to want to assimilate into British society.

In fact I actually asked a Pakistani why he and his family lived in UK but retained their Asian

customs........."Why should we" he replied " We don't like your Customs and Culture".

So I asked "Why are you here then?"

"Because we can have a better standard of living" was his reply.

Now I find myself seeing his point of view more clearly.......

I have almost no desire to 'Go native'. Although I respect Thai Culture, it is not MY Culture.

When I am inside my House, as far as I am concerned, IT IS ENGLAND!

I quite like Buddhism. But it is NOT my Religion. So I don't go to the Temple with my Wife.

I don't support MY Family in the UK. So why should I support HER Family, who are almost complete strangers?

But,I happily give my beloved Wife a better standard of living than she ever dreamed of.......

Yeah! Yeah! I hear the "When in Rome" brigade firing salvoes. But I don't think I am being unreasonable do you?

I worked very hard for every penny I have, and I object to the idea that I must now meekly hand it over.......After all if I get sick I will need it to pay the Hospital bills.

I agree with you.

But their is a slight difference. Most of us who migrate to LOS are only here on visa's or yearly extensions that have to be reviewed and renewed, so, really we are only here temporary and can be forced to leave at any time. However, most if not all migrants to Farangland countries eventually get PR or citizenship after a certain period of time. In fact, its a lot easier for them to get PR and citizenship than it is for us here in LOS. Once the migrants have their permanent visa to Farangland, basically they are eventually gaurenteed the right to stay there and to have the same rights as the natives of that country have. Unless we have PR or citizenship here ( even that can be taken away due to the radical changes and un-stability here ) we can be made to leave. Having said that, I see no reason for us to fully assimilate, since we are only visitors. I accept the Thai culture, but since I am a visitor here, I will not change or fully assimilate. However, if it was easier to obtain PR or citizenship and you could have some garuntees that you would be able to live out the rest of your life peacefully here, then I might be willing to assimilate, but untill that time comes, why should I? Foriegners who are in farangland under the same circumstances don't try to assimilate, so why should we do it here? I dont't expect temporary visitors to assimilate to my culture when in my country so I don't think I should have to do the same. Citizenship is a different story, if you are accepted as a citizen of another country I do think you have an obligation to try to assimilate as best as possible, because the country you chose to live in has accepted you, therefore you should at least do your best to fit in.

So for all of us temporary visitors here in the kingdom, assimilation should not be a factor to consider because we are only temporary visitors. But, when people come to our countries, take up our citizenship, claim refugee status, take out our welfare and bludge of our tax and social security systems and then still refuse to assimilate and even worse, claim to hate our country and culture and call us names, I say its time to go home. You chose to come to our country, you don't have to like it, but you have to respect it. The same should apply to foriegners that are living here long term.

"If you don't want to respect and accept the country that you chose to live in and accepted you, then <deleted> off!"

Edited April 20, 2007 by aussiestyle1983

[twix38]

I would agree with the view that we do not need to assimilate and there is little point to do so.

As Foreigners we are rarely respected, apart from our ability to pay. We are afforded little benefit or protection and frequently where the opportunity presents itself we are either robbed or endure some form of corruption or double pricing.

There is no worldly worthwhile reason for learning Thai or Thai culture on an international scale and within Thailand those (most) that live in major centres do not need it.

Initially Thailand pleases, but when the real story comes through after a prolonged stay and realisation of the facts, well. Thailand should be seen for the only benefits it offers foreigners. Good weather, cheap prices and the girls. If it were not for these facts then there would be many less tourists as the down sides become all to obvious. Corruption (personal and business), robbery, gun crime, unfair treatment, being seen as a walking wallet, double pricing, absolutley no rights as a foreign alien, rule changing or enforcing at a whim, etc.

No, we know what a foreigner's purpose is for a Thai all too often, and so we should accept the package (the good and bad), but not bother to assimilate as well. There is no need in tourists spots and absolutely no point and no benefit. If, as in the UK and elsewhere, things were more equal and benefits fair, then it may be different.

Over time it is found to be clear that the more you give a Thai the more it's taken for granted and the more they want and expect.

As to the original post. I agree.

With power comes responsility. We have no power as we are really 2nd or 3rd class citizens to be milked all to often. Therefore we have no responsibility to assimliate. We should respect and live in harmony with morals, but that is where our duty on our permitted and changable visa entry stay, ends.......apart from paying for everything ;-)

Edited April 20, 2007 by twix38

[GuestHouse]

I take the view that while, for me, it I feel endeavoring to assimilate myself into the community is important (or at least was when I was in Thailand); I do not feel it is my duty to tell anyone else if they themselves should assimilate.

What other foreigners do in this respect is entirely up to them. It is their money that keeps them in Thailand, and buys what privileges they have in Thailand, who I am I to tell them they must assimilate.

But there is something else too.

No matter how much effort a foreigner makes to assimilate him/herself into Thai culture s/he will always be an outsider. No matter how good his/her Thai language, knowledge and understanding of religion, culture, history, art, food (or of any aspect of Thai life) it means nothing to the next new Thai s/he meets. All good efforts are nulled by the mere fact of being a foreigner.

Very many of the Thais you know for years, will never forget and never forgive you for being a foreigners.

But never forget, when you meet a new Thai and unless you are being introduced by someone who this newly met Thai knows, respects and preferably is related to, then you have to start all over again.

So what are you left with: Assimilate if you want to, if it suits your taste, temperament, intellectual curiosity or for what ever reason you can think of.

But don't make the mistake of trying to assimilating to please the Thais - You are never going to please them all, you'll only wind up dancing pretty and forgetting who and what you are.

[endure]

I take the view that while, for me, it I feel endeavoring to assimilate myself into the community is important (or at least was when I was in Thailand); I do not feel it is my duty to tell anyone else if they themselves should assimilate.

What other foreigners do in this respect is entirely up to them. It is their money that keeps them in Thailand, and buys what privileges they have in Thailand, who I am I to tell them they must assimilate.

But there is something else too.

No matter how much effort a foreigner makes to assimilate him/herself into Thai culture s/he will always be an outsider. No matter how good his/her Thai language, knowledge and understanding of religion, culture, history, art, food (or of any aspect of Thai life) it means nothing to the next new Thai s/he meets. All good efforts are nulled by the mere fact of being a foreigner.

Very many of the Thais you know for years, will never forget and never forgive you for being a foreigners.

But never forget, when you meet a new Thai and unless you are being introduced by someone who this newly met Thai knows, respects and preferably is related to, then you have to start all over again.

And that's just as true for anyone who looks 'different' here in the UK. I have good Thai friends here in the UK who've lived here for 20 years, have UK citizenship and passports, own businesses, pay taxes. Most of the people outside their own circle of friends initially assume they're Chinese who can only speak pidgin English and are immigrants who run a small takeaway.

[GuestHouse]

And that's just as true for anyone who looks 'different' here in the UK

Likewise in Italy.

But the difference is that here and in the UK a foreigner can obtain the rights they deserve as a member of the community.

Your rights in Thailand are almost entirely limited by the money you have in your wallet.

DON'T EVER FORGET THAT.

[PeaceBlondie]

Assimilation means you become just like (similar as) the thing to which you're adapting yourself. We cannot change our eyelids, skin color, height, etc. We will probably never be Thai. I cannot, cannot speak Thai, and never will. I cannot, cannot, eat most Thai food, and I seriously doubt I will.

We can, to varying degrees, acculturate ourselves into Thai culture. Canadians tell me that they have a mosaic, or a patched quilt, while the USA has a melting pot in which you lose your identity to become a mult-generation American. Ideally, farang who are here for the duration should acculturate, but they are never fully allowed to assimilate.

So, learn Thai if you can; eat the food if you can. Try and get PR (although one of our regular members may have to reset his three year clock to get PR, because he made a simple error with his immigration status).

It has become PC back home to allow people of other origins to retain their customs, language, religion, etc. It is not PC in Thai culture to be a farang.

I love it here. I love Thailand and Thai people. But I'll never be Buddhist, eat the food, salute the Thai flag, or speak the language. I'll always be a stranger in a strange land, thankful that I'm here.

[torito]

I love it here. I love Thailand and Thai people. But I'll never be Buddhist, eat the food, salute the Thai flag, or speak the language. I'll always be a stranger in a strange land, thankful that I'm here.

'PeaceBlondie' said it all,....and with poetry.

[Alf Witt]

Excuse me! Is this the thread about the Foreign Business Act?

Is it legal for a farang (alien) to assimilate more than 49%?

[verdant]

As a foriegner in a foreign land some understanding of culture and ways of life should be respected.

Many Thais show disrespect to each other and their culture the same as all nationalities.

The current bad feelings among foreigners here is blatantly apparent and being made to jump through ever changing hoops for visa and business doesnt help but in the long run if you want to be here then you have to assimilate to a certain extent which basically means having respect and understanding with the the people you choose to live with and the laws of the land.

Learning Thai...up to the indvidual...eating chicken feet soup...up to you....an expectation that as a foreigner with money (some people not all) you have a right to behave indifferently and often blatantly rude to Thai people and their culture should ask themselves why they are here. (obviously nothing to do with beautiful beaches, women, good food, tolerent people, cheap travel and a good standard of living)

If you dont like it , leave, its that simple. Times are changing and you either change with them and get on with it or get pi..ed off, moan, and turn into a bar stool profit of doom.

The choice is yours.....

[Alf Witt]

a bar stool profit of doom.

The choice is yours.....

I'll choose some of that. The profit has always gone the other way across the bar in my experience.

[verdant]

a bar stool profit of doom.

The choice is yours.....

I'll choose some of that. The profit has always gone the other way across the bar in my experience.

Having been on both sides of the bar i hope i have reached happy medium:) and still here to enjoy the rest of LOS.

[cobra]

Where English is spoken (and English being the universal language of business, if you want to make money you'll learn to speak some English), that said, it reduces the pressure for assimilation.

Learning another tongue is a huge investment in time and energy, if you don't have to why bother.

But to fit in it's probably in your best interest to make some effort.

The nail that sticks out is the one that gets pounded down.

How many times I've been queried " do you speak Thai..." I can not count.

My programmed response is always "ah no, very little, but I plan on learning...".

Then when they discover low long I've been coming here I feel a little embarrassed and can't help but feel I've just lost some respect in their eyes for not making more of an effort, out of respect for the country and culture.

[sukanyacondo]

When I am inside my House, as far as I am concerned, IT IS ENGLAND!

So inside your house the climate is terrible and the people are miserable ?

and the food is <deleted>

and they never wash......

[Trollish remark removed. Get with the program. They were joking.]

[Naam]

Excuse me! Is this the thread about the Foreign Business Act?

Is it legal for a farang (alien) to assimilate more than 49%?

:D

[Naam]

I for one try to assimilate, buts it takes patience and hard work, however the rewards are fantastic.

tell me what kind of rewards are waiting on the horizon for a retiree who neither frequents restaurants nor bars nor shops nor beach, crossing his property line only, e.g. to see a dentist or go the airport to take a flight?