Fallen below 800k VISA Requirement - What can I do?

[Peter Denis]

12 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

Sounds like you have an EXTENSION of stay question.

 

4 hours ago, whaleboneman said:

Well that's helpful.

Actually his remark is indeed relevant because the requirements for an in-country Visa application, a first time 1-year extension application or an application to extend again when already on a 1-year extension, are different.

The financial requirements for such an application respectively are funds on personal thai bank-account to be there on moment of application, seasoned for at least 2 months or met during the 12 months preceding the application.

[rucker4012]

Same issue. A friend allowed balance to drop below what was required. When confronted, was approached at local unnamed immigration office by individual offering problem to go away for 25,000. He/she called next day to set up payment appointment, paid 25,000 without receipt and obtained extension with all correct stamps. In hindsight, seemed better way than starting all over.

[Peter Denis]

14 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

When using the money-in-bank method there is no need to prove the SOURCE of the foreign income.

It is only when you use the monthly-income transfer method or the Embassy issued Affidavit c.q. certified foreign-income statement, that the Immigration officer handling your application can ask for that additional evidence of the SOURCE of your foreign income or transfers.

And some IOs even go so far as to only accept an Embassy certified pension-statement as proof of the source of your foreign income. 

So if you do not receive pension yet (but have other sources of income) you are screwed, when using one of those 2 methods and dealing with a dim Immigration officer requesting such evidence of source of income, if he does not understand the evidence you can provide of other foreign sources of income.

@stouricks

In response to your 'Confused' reaction > The main point is that when using another method than the 800K/400K 'money-in-bank', the Immigration officer handling your application can request that you not only prove that the funds came from abroad, but also that you provide evidence of the SOURCE of that foreign income.

The reason for that additional evidence they might require, is to ensure that you have a steady stream of foreign income so that there would be no need for you to 'recycle' the funds.  But IO when making that regulation, did not take into account the possibility that you could have sufficient funds (e.g. from heritage, winning the lottery, etc.) and thus have no need for a steady income stream.  That's why it is at the discretion of the officer handling your application to ask for that additional evidence of the SOURCE of your foreign income.  If you look like a 'wealthy well-to-do farang' they often do not bother asking for that evidence, but if the officer has some doubts about your financial situation they can ask for it.  And obviously, you also have the dumbbells at Immigration that do not understand any of this, and might press you for evidence of a monthly pension even if you can show that you have millions on your foreign and thai bank-accounts.

And there is also the 'more sinister' motive by some, to push you to a Fixer Agent or Brown Envelope solution to solve the matter.

>> So if you suspect you would encounter difficulties because of that SOURCE evidence, the solution is simply to make use of the 800K/400K money-in-bank method which does NOT require that you prove the SOURCE of the funds

Note: And the foreign origin of those funds only has to be proven when applying for the Non Imm O Visa for reason of retirement, it is not required for a Non Imm O marriage Visa application, nor for the 1-year extension of stay - be it for reason of retirement or for reason of marriage).

[stouricks]

2 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

@stouricks

In response to your 'Confused' reaction > The main point is that when using another method than the 800K/400K 'money-in-bank', the Immigration officer handling your application can request that you not only prove that the funds came from abroad, but also that you provide evidence of the SOURCE of that foreign income.

The reason for that additional evidence they might require, is to ensure that you have a steady stream of foreign income so that there would be no need for you to 'recycle' the funds.  But IO when making that regulation, did not take into account the possibility that you could have sufficient funds (e.g. from heritage, winning the lottery, etc.) and thus have no need for a steady income stream.  That's why it is at the discretion of the officer handling your application to ask for that additional evidence of the SOURCE of your foreign income.  If you look like a 'wealthy well-to-do farang' they often do not bother asking for that evidence, but if the officer has some doubts about your financial situation they can ask for it.  And obviously, you also have the dumbbells at Immigration that do not understand any of this, and might press you for evidence of a monthly pension even if you can show that you have millions on your foreign and thai bank-accounts.

And there is also the 'more sinister' motive by some, to push you to a Fixer Agent or Brown Envelope solution to solve the matter.

>> So if you suspect you would encounter difficulties because of that SOURCE evidence, the solution is simply to make use of the 800K/400K money-in-bank method which does NOT require that you prove the SOURCE of the funds

Note: And the foreign origin of those funds only has to be proven when applying for the Non Imm O Visa for reason of retirement, it is not required for a Non Imm O marriage Visa application, nor for the 1-year extension of stay - be it for reason of retirement or for reason of marriage).

Thanks for this Peter, very informative.

I did last year's extension with the eqivalent of 800k in a Foreign Currenct Account, about £22k. But I still need money to live on, so the IO said if I bring in say 50k Bht a month and have at least 200k in the bank = 800k total using the combo method, I will be OK in December for re-newal. I have done this via Transferwise no problem except that I STILL have 800k in the bank and nowt to spend it on!

[Peter Denis]

8 hours ago, tropo said:

Well, these people were very fortunate to have had some leniency applied, but unfortunately stories of the IO's requiring expats to jump through hoops, making their application process nothing short of nightmares, are more common.

 

Either way, the IO's will use their discretionary powers any way they see fit. Whether you agree with their decisions or not, based on your ideas of when they should use their special powers, is irrelevant.

 

I believe they are making the process of extensions based on retirement and marriage more annoyingly complicated to entice more people to apply through agents. Last time I got an extension they told me point blank that next year I need 800k in the bank. They didn't even suggest a monthly income method was a possibility.

 

Business is very slow right now, so they are becoming even more helpful than usual. They actually canvass for "customers". I won't mention the IO, but she suggested that one person who used an agent to obtain his extension come directly to her next time, and it would save him money.

I will not deny that there are many 'rotten apples' in the Immigration basket, trying to bend the regulations to create a problem for you and force you into a Brown Envelope solution.

But I surely do not subscribe to the notion that these are the majority.  Of course, the stories of those extorted by such a corrupt officer get much clout on the Forum - and rightfully so. 

But in large majority Immigration officers do their work 'according to the book', and its very seldom that you get these Positive reports.  Unfortunately I have also come across several reports of indignant applicants that accused IO of trying to force them to make use of a Fixer Agent solution while the reality was that the applicant did not meet the IO regulations.

Once again, I do not deny the 'rotten apples' and that there are many cases of Immigration officers 'on the take'.  Imo exposing such corruption is a moral duty and I can guarantee you that they would have a 'hard nut' to crack when trying to extort me.

[Peter Denis]

14 minutes ago, stouricks said:

Thanks for this Peter, very informative.

I did last year's extension with the eqivalent of 800k in a Foreign Currenct Account, about £22k. But I still need money to live on, so the IO said if I bring in say 50k Bht a month and have at least 200k in the bank = 800k total using the combo method, I will be OK in December for re-newal. I have done this via Transferwise no problem except that I STILL have 800k in the bank and nowt to spend it on!

Hi Stouricks,

Actually, your IO does not have any right to enquire about your funds for 'living expenses'. 

You meet the 800K money-in-bank financial requirement, and that's what the regulations require.  Not that on top of that you should also prove monthly income transfers for your living expenses.

But, maybe your IO is just trying to be helpful (and that's what I actually think).

IO is correct that if you are already doing monthly foreign income transfers, you could make use of the Combination method, e.g. by keeping 200K on that Foreign Currency Account and transferring 50K every month.  Or keeping 500K on that FC Account and transferring 25K every month.

[Tagged]

19 hours ago, giddyup said:

It's also expensive when doing it yourself is only 1900 baht.

My gf do everything except sidning the documents. Easy peasy

 

edit note, she costs alot more than 15 000,- 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Tagged

[drbeach]

8 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

@stouricks

In response to your 'Confused' reaction > The main point is that when using another method than the 800K/400K 'money-in-bank', the Immigration officer handling your application can request that you not only prove that the funds came from abroad, but also that you provide evidence of the SOURCE of that foreign income.

The reason for that additional evidence they might require, is to ensure that you have a steady stream of foreign income so that there would be no need for you to 'recycle' the funds.  But IO when making that regulation, did not take into account the possibility that you could have sufficient funds (e.g. from heritage, winning the lottery, etc.) and thus have no need for a steady income stream.  That's why it is at the discretion of the officer handling your application to ask for that additional evidence of the SOURCE of your foreign income.  If you look like a 'wealthy well-to-do farang' they often do not bother asking for that evidence, but if the officer has some doubts about your financial situation they can ask for it.  And obviously, you also have the dumbbells at Immigration that do not understand any of this, and might press you for evidence of a monthly pension even if you can show that you have millions on your foreign and thai bank-accounts.

And there is also the 'more sinister' motive by some, to push you to a Fixer Agent or Brown Envelope solution to solve the matter.

>> So if you suspect you would encounter difficulties because of that SOURCE evidence, the solution is simply to make use of the 800K/400K money-in-bank method which does NOT require that you prove the SOURCE of the funds

Note: And the foreign origin of those funds only has to be proven when applying for the Non Imm O Visa for reason of retirement, it is not required for a Non Imm O marriage Visa application, nor for the 1-year extension of stay - be it for reason of retirement or for reason of marriage).

Bit difficult for anyone to be able to determine "recycling" of funds given that would involve an enormous paper trail going back and forth. Shouldn't it be - you show the transfer receipts of funds from abroad, and that's enough? I can't imagine anyone asking for more proof than that, since that's conclusive. If I show a transfer receipt from my account abroad going to my Thai account that should be it. incidentally, in my case i don't have the same amounts coming in every month. I'm meeting the minimums, but one month could be say 50000 Baht, another 56000 another 62000 another 180000 another 45000 and so forth.

[Peter Denis]

17 minutes ago, drbeach said:

Bit difficult for anyone to be able to determine "recycling" of funds given that would involve an enormous paper trail going back and forth. Shouldn't it be - you show the transfer receipts of funds from abroad, and that's enough? I can't imagine anyone asking for more proof than that, since that's conclusive. If I show a transfer receipt from my account abroad going to my Thai account that should be it. incidentally, in my case i don't have the same amounts coming in every month. I'm meeting the minimums, but one month could be say 50000 Baht, another 56000 another 62000 another 180000 another 45000 and so forth.

Not really, consider the possibility of somebody having very limited funds and as good as no funds abroad.  He would only need 2 bank-accounts (in order to separate the transfers out and not show them on the thai bank-account for incoming transfers that he uses for IO purposes).

The mechanism would work like this > Transferring the money at the end of the month to his foreign bank-account using DeeMoney via his 'hidden' bank-account.  Then transferring it back beginning of the month to his IO dedicated bank-account, where he can withdraw it using an ATM and putting it again on his other account, until next transfer at end of month.  Obviously he would lose 1 to 2 % of the total amount with each transfer.  But he would be able to show to IO 12 consecutive months of foreign income transfers by recycling the limited amount of money he does have.

Now, if IO is suspicious, they can simply request him to provide evidence of the SOURCE of that monthly foreign income, and he would not be able to show that.

This far-fetched case is what's behind the discretionary power of an IO officer to ask for  evidence of the SOURCE of the foreign income transfers.

But as usual, that mechanism to avoid the very unlikely fraudulent 'recycling' has been turned into a not well thought out requirement that now prevents applicants with millions on the bank not coming from a monthly income like pension, not being able to meet the requirement.  Obviously they can use the money-in-bank method which does not have that SOURCE evidence requirement.  But people using the monthly-income transfer method have this Sword of Damocles hanging above their head, if their monthly transfers are not from a monthly income but from another legitimate source.

 

[steven100]

22 hours ago, Aliflair said:

I use an agent in soi 13/2 in Pattaya, they will do a retirement renewal for 12500, and no extra charge for 90 day reports. Was in there a few weeks ago and confirmed this price then.

you paid alot .... 8,500 ...everything.

[LeoCesar]

On 7/10/2020 at 12:42 PM, DrJack54 said:

Fair enough. This guy sounds like he just made small stuff up. Easy to do and that's why I choose to just put 800+ in fixed term. 

Now that he knows it's only 2 months he can sort it out easily.

Today in another thread there was a guy that let his retirement extension expire and didn't have money in bank. My advice go see an agent asap. 

Would you please explain how an agent can help, how does it work, how to find an agent, how much it cost and all there is to know?

[Peter Denis]

6 hours ago, LeoCesar said:

Would you please explain how an agent can help, how does it work, how to find an agent, how much it cost and all there is to know?

You need to make a difference between what I would call a Legwork Agent and a Fixer Agent.

 

If you want to avoid the admin hassle that applying for a Non Imm O Visa or 1-year extension can bring, and you can meet all the requirements for such an application, engaging an Agent to do the 'legwork' for you can be useful.  He knows the ropes and will check your documentation to ensure that your application is correct and complete, and will apply at the IO on your behalf and deal with the Immigration officer handling your application.  The fee for such a legitimate service is relatively low (a couple thousand bath depending on the service) and could be worthwhile if you are unsure about applying in the thai Visa Jungle.

 

Then there is the Fixer Agent.  If for one reason or another you are not able to meet the requirements for your Visa or retirement extension, you can make use of a Fixer Agent to 'circumvent' these requirements.  He will use his connections at IO to get your application approved and IO turning 'a blind eye' on the requirements you did not meet.  Of course there are some requirements that cannot be 'forgotten' by the IO handling your application, e.g. it will not be possible to apply for reason of retirement when you are not 50 years of age, or apply for reason of marriage to a thai national without the marriage certificate.  But pretty much anything else, and especially the financial requirements, can be 'fixed'.

Obviously such a 'fix' is not legitimate, and the price is much higher than the regular legwork service.  This because of the 'brown envelope' involved, required to persuade IO to overlook the requirements in your application that weren't met.  Note that a Fix for a marriage extension application is more expensive than a retirement one, because  a marriage extension application needs to get final approval at divisional HQ and thus requires two 'brown envelopes' (one at local IO level and one at divisional level).

 

Also please note that contrary to what some posters may say on the Forum, that engaging a Fixer agent is not entirely without risk.  A HQ audit of the local IO where your application was fixed, might reveal anomalies in your application and can result - worst case - in you being summoned to leave the country immediately.  The risk of something like that happening is very low, and if it happens it is usually because of an inter-office strife between immigration officials, as the officers 'on the take' will also be fired without appeal.

A 'minor' fix even when detected during an audit, will probably not result in a ban for the applicant.  I mention this because it is only fair that you are aware that when engaging a Fixer Agent to fix a major shortcoming in your application (e.g. having depleted the required financials during the previous 12 months and hence not being able anymore to meet that retirement extension requirement), that it is not entirely without risk.  The Fixer Agent will of course not inform you about this and will assure you that it is 'normal business' (which it is not).

Conclusion > A Fixer Agent is a 'solution' of the last resort, and ONLY engage such an Agent to fix your non-compliant application, when there is really no other possibility of doing it legit.   

 

[Jockey]

Thank you to everyone for all the help and advice. I decided to go to the Bluport immigration today and I can now confirm that I only need 800k for two months before the application date. The rule is either proof of regular income of at least 65k a month or have 800k or more in your Thai bank account 2 months before the application. You also need 800k or more for 3 months after the application, and at least 400k for the other 7 months. I was given written confirmation of this rule.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Jockey

[Lancelot01]

On 7/10/2020 at 12:35 PM, Pilotman said:

because its easy and trouble free.  Like all converts, I am now a fanatic for using agents. 

One agent in Hua Hin is now insisting that the $100,000 insurance cover is required to extend an 'O' extension of stay based on retirement

[Peter Denis]

21 minutes ago, Lancelot01 said:

One agent in Hua Hin is now insisting that the $100,000 insurance cover is required to extend an 'O' extension of stay based on retirement

A good reason to never make use of the services of such a clueless agent.

[Pilotman]

11 hours ago, Lancelot01 said:

One agent in Hua Hin is now insisting that the $100,000 insurance cover is required to extend an 'O' extension of stay based on retirement

Then  he is not really an agent that is any use to anyone.