Awake in a sweat again, another day has been laid to waste.

[HandsomeTallFarang]

I can’t stop relapsing. I’m going to attempt the Sinclair Method soon. I’m tired of waking up feeling like <deleted> every single day. Ugh, this sucks so much.

[Puchaiyank]

You could use a support group like AA...ultimately,  you have to will yourself to be strong and resist alcohol's temptation. 

 

Good Luck!

 

 

[Don Chance]

If only there was some medicine you could take....?  Oh ya there is, Baclofen.

[Neeranam]

On 8/10/2020 at 6:11 AM, Puchaiyank said:

You could use a support group like AA...ultimately,  you have to will yourself to be strong and resist alcohol's temptation. 

 

Good Luck!

 

 

AA say your will power is no use.

[Neeranam]

17 hours ago, Don Chance said:

If only there was some medicine you could take....?  Oh ya there is, Baclofen.

I believe the Sinclair method uses Naltrexone. I took this years ago and it does help the craving. It is an opoid antagonist. 

[Don Chance]

12 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I believe the Sinclair method uses Naltrexone. I took this years ago and it does help the craving. It is an opoid antagonist. 

If someone just quits alcohol  they will inevitably take or do something to replace it. It could be 5 cups of coffee and day, excessive exercise, yoga, religion, weed, anti-depressants or other drugs. Sure try and white knuckle it, but after months or years most people will give in a get drunk again.

 

I went to my family doctor one time and told it was hard for me to stop drinking - he said don't worry about it.  There really is no perfect cure, likely your nervous system is changed. That and all your social cues will make it very difficult if your friends and family are drinkers.

 

If you consider alcoholism as a disease, baclofen is a medication, just like any medication you may have to continue taking it indefinitely and if you stop the disease will return. I think if i stop taking baclofen i would probably start drinking again or have to take some other drug.

[Don Chance]

Quote

To understand this problem requires an explanation of baclofen’s major paradigm shift in Alcohol Dependence treatment.

Pharmacotherapy with the currently used medications (naltrexone, acamprosate, disulfiram) involves complete cessation of alcohol via a detoxification (detox) of around 7 days and initiation of the medication at the maximum dose with aim of continuous abstinence. The maximum therapeutic effect is therefore at the start of treatment. If the patient relapses into drinking, the whole process generally needs to be restarted to restore abstinence. The detox phase is generally carried out in an Addiction Medicine inpatient setting for heavily dependent patients and is followed by variable periods of inpatient or outpatient rehabilitation. In Europe and the USA, this is typically via 4-6 week hospital or AD clinic inpatient stays (as in 79% of participants in the Beraha study) but can be via purely outpatient follow up (21% of Beraha participants and all Alpadir participants).

Baclofen treatment in AD is radically different. The regime described in the book “The End of My Addiction” and used across France and beyond is called the “Ameisen Method”. Patients are treated entirely in an outpatient setting, usually by their General Practitioner while the patient lives in his/her normal environment. There is no initial detox, the patient starting baclofen while still drinking alcohol. Baclofen must be started at low, ineffective doses to avoid severe side effects  then slowly titrated up over many weeks to months to achieve full therapeutic effect. The baclofen dose required is highly variable between individuals, from 30mg/day to 300mg/day or more. So starting baclofen treatment by doing a detox leaves the patient without either alcohol or effective pharmacotherapy for months and relapse risk is high.

 

The second major difference is that in baclofen treatment, the aim is safe levels of drinking (WHO criteria) rather than obligatory continuous abstinence. The aim is that alcohol consumption will fall steadily as the baclofen dose rises towards the effective dose. Episodes or relapses into heavy drinking are common as the patient adjusts to their new life but require only reinstatement or continuing upward titration of the baclofen dose.

 

Quote

Pretty much all AD patients who take baclofen at sufficient dose will feel it’s powerful anti-craving and anti-anxiety effects (13) but this translates to only 50-70% success in clinical practice.

The first reason is that baclofen treatment requires a moderate level of engagement and organisation to get to the effective dose via a slow and steady titration. Clearly those who need only low doses and have few side effects are the easiest to treat. Patients at the socially excluded, unstable, chaotic, unreliable end of the AD spectrum will find it difficult to maintain the thrice daily dosing at specific times and the steady dose titration over weeks to months. Compliance is greatly helped by baclofen’s strong anxiolytic effect so patients can often feel it wearing off when their next dose is due but this is not always enough.

The most common reason for treatment failure is that for many AD patients, alcohol acts as an “anaesthetic” which numbs the pain of their lives. This includes the damage caused by abusive, neglectful or poverty stricken childhoods, the trauma of military service or sexual assault or losses such as the death of children, parents or partners. Added to this are the losses due to the AD itself, to careers, marriages, relationships and children. The hardest journey is not stopping the alcohol but learning to live without it.

 

From baclofentreatment.com

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, Don Chance said:

If you consider alcoholism as a disease, baclofen is a medication, just like any medication you may have to continue taking it indefinitely and if you stop the disease will return. I think if i stop taking baclofen i would probably start drinking again or have to take some other drug.

I believe alcoholism to be a threefold disease, physical, mental, and spiritual. 

Baclofen may help the physical, but has its own side effects. I used valium for many years to stay off booze, but this also has side effects and didn't help the mental/spiritual aspects. 

There is  interesting correspondence between Carl Jung and Bill Wilson 

http://www.openculture.com/2019/05/how-carl-jung-inspired-the-creation-of-alcoholics-anonymous.html

 

[Don Chance]

10 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I believe alcoholism to be a threefold disease, physical, mental, and spiritual. 

Baclofen may help the physical, but has its own side effects. I used valium for many years to stay off booze, but this also has side effects and didn't help the mental/spiritual aspects. 

There is  interesting correspondence between Carl Jung and Bill Wilson 

http://www.openculture.com/2019/05/how-carl-jung-inspired-the-creation-of-alcoholics-anonymous.html

 

An interesting effect of Baclofen is that it makes your dreams more vivid. Alcohol and other drugs suppress your dreams, so alcoholic probably haven't had much night time dreams for decades.

So you go from no dreams to having vivid deep long adventures at night. It is is spiritual! Baclofen is actually more interesting and complex then it sounds. I have maybe 3-4 vivid dreams at night that takes me places i haven't been in decades.  The first few months is some of the most intense!

 

The other problem is work and life that requires attention. If you are lucky enough to be able to retire in Thailand you will be much better off and able to focus on relaxing and keeping your self health in recovery, spirituality, getting exercise etc.  If you have to go to a job and have family obligations it will be much harder.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Don Chance

[clarky cat]

On 8/12/2020 at 12:22 AM, Don Chance said:

If only there was some medicine you could take....?  Oh ya there is, Baclofen.

they sell this in thailand?

[impulse]

On 8/11/2020 at 12:22 PM, Don Chance said:

If only there was some medicine you could take....?  Oh ya there is, Baclofen.

 

I don't understand the appeal of quitting drinking if you're not going to be happy about it.  Especially when there are entire rooms full of people who have quit and they're enjoying life more than ever.

 

[Skallywag]

I likely drink too much, but can easily go a day or 2 or just drink a beer or 2.  Both my older brothers and father were heavy drinkers.  I do not believe "alcoholism" is a disease. I guess I would accept alcoholism as a disease if there were news reports of people being robbed and killed for money to buy a bottle of booze.  Like many addictions it hurts inside when you cannot have it.

I have priorities and am on a fixed income.    I spend what I want on alcohol normally, yet pleasures of the flesh come first, as does have a couple meals each day, etc... 

Maybe human DNA has changed in the last couple of generations as so much psycho-babble and "treatment" centers everywhere for alcoholism, gambling, depression (sadness?) .  Back in the 60's never heard of such places or "studies" by the pseudo-scientific psychology community.  A big $$$ win for those charlatans though.    Love these places that claim "proven treatment"  where you are basically locked inside a compound/facility.  They never claim to "cure" you, yet can claim success as you were sober when you left.  Pretty easy to get someone sober for 2 weeks when there is no booze or drugs available and you are locked up.  

 

Wish the OP better days.  Hopefully some of the posts here will help you

 

[madmen]

On 8/13/2020 at 11:36 AM, Don Chance said:

An interesting effect of Baclofen is that it makes your dreams more vivid. Alcohol and other drugs suppress your dreams, so alcoholic probably haven't had much night time dreams for decades.

So you go from no dreams to having vivid deep long adventures at night. It is is spiritual! Baclofen is actually more interesting and complex then it sounds. I have maybe 3-4 vivid dreams at night that takes me places i haven't been in decades.  The first few months is some of the most intense!

 

The other problem is work and life that requires attention. If you are lucky enough to be able to retire in Thailand you will be much better off and able to focus on relaxing and keeping your self health in recovery, spirituality, getting exercise etc.  If you have to go to a job and have family obligations it will be much harder.

When I stopped after decades of drinking hard, no meds but the vivid dreams were not a good thing as stared dreaming about stuff that I was suppresing. 

This may help but I stopped by switching to an all fruit diet as takes away the suger craving which was my Biggest hurdle, ever seen somebody drinking beer while eating a banana? You crave less with sweetness of fruit 

[Don Chance]

18 hours ago, clarky cat said:

they sell this in thailand?

Yes see the thread belowBaclofen FAQ's

2 hours ago, impulse said:

 

I don't understand the appeal of quitting drinking if you're not going to be happy about it.  Especially when there are entire rooms full of people who have quit and they're enjoying life more than ever.

 

I am not sure what that means. I think most people who quit and are miserable for years until their bodies reset (4 years) and even then may not be happy.  They will quit for months or a year or more then start again or take other drugs, anti-depressant, religion, excessive work, etc.

Are those people in the room who quit really recovered or is it only temporary? Maybe only 20-30%. How happy are they constantly fighting the urge to drink, feeling anxiety in social settings, tempted to drink?

 

Baclofen can be a replacement for alcohol or a bridge to sobriety. Use it to replace alcohol then eventually get off of Baclofen.  The point is that alcohol is associated with so many diseases, accidents and poor life experiences. Do what ever works.

Obviously people should try to quit drinking on their own first, if that doesn't work i think Baclofen is good option.

[ding]

I drank like a pig and couldn't stop.

I went to AA, worked the program, never drank again.

It's free and the main side effect is a really good life.

35 years has me convinced, it works.

[Mai mee]

On 9/6/2020 at 1:25 PM, ding said:

I drank like a pig and couldn't stop.

I went to AA, worked the program, never drank again.

It's free and the main side effect is a really good life.

35 years has me convinced, it works.

I've only got 30 years, but my experience is the same as ding's.

[Gumballl]

I don't have a drinking problem... until the bottle is empty.

 

Seriously, fever and cold sweats could be caused by something other than drinking. Perhaps the OP has become a Type-2 diabetic?

 

The OP should see a doctor, not seek advice on TVF.

[Yellowtail]

On 8/19/2020 at 11:16 AM, Don Chance said:

Yes see the thread belowBaclofen FAQ's

I am not sure what that means. I think most people who quit and are miserable for years until their bodies reset (4 years) and even then may not be happy.  They will quit for months or a year or more then start again or take other drugs, anti-depressant, religion, excessive work, etc.

Are those people in the room who quit really recovered or is it only temporary? Maybe only 20-30%. How happy are they constantly fighting the urge to drink, feeling anxiety in social settings, tempted to drink?

 

Baclofen can be a replacement for alcohol or a bridge to sobriety. Use it to replace alcohol then eventually get off of Baclofen.  The point is that alcohol is associated with so many diseases, accidents and poor life experiences. Do what ever works.

Obviously people should try to quit drinking on their own first, if that doesn't work i think Baclofen is good option.

 

Most people that come to AA and really want to quit drinking see their lives improve almost immediately. Many are happier in a month than they been in years. 

 

Life is too short to be miserable...

[Don Chance]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Most people that come to AA and really want to quit drinking see their lives improve almost immediately. Many are happier in a month than they been in years. 

 

Life is too short to be miserable...

That's the problem with faith healing, it only last a month or few months. AA has only 5-10% rate of success in curing alcoholism, only slightly better than a placebo.

If you want to be miserable keep on going to AA meeting for years instead of taking some pills.

[Yellowtail]

7 hours ago, Don Chance said:

That's the problem with faith healing, it only last a month or few months. AA has only 5-10% rate of success in curing alcoholism, only slightly better than a placebo.

If you want to be miserable keep on going to AA meeting for years instead of taking some pills.

 

First, AA has a zero percent rate of success in curing alcoholism. It is (as I understand it, and I speak only for myself) AA's position that alcoholism is a disease I have die with, but a disease that I do not have to die from. The people that sell you pills know this, but they can't tell the people they want to sell their pills this because: 1, People buying pills expect to be cured, and 2, If they told people AA's success rate was zero, the people they want to buy their pills would know they were lying.

 

A very large percentage of people are sent to AA as part of a court order and most of these people do not want to get sober, much less stay sober. They usually just want to get there court-card signed and be on their way, which is fine, but it's not fair counting them as part of AA's success rate. Neither is it fair to count people that come to get their spouse or insignificant other off their back, or come for some other reason besides a desire to stop drinking. Of course many of the people sent by the court or a spouse or what not do get sober and stay sober, but certainly that is a small percentage.

 

There are also people that go in and out of AA. They stay sober a few years, get their life back together and then get drunk for a while. They then come back for a few more years and start over. You (and the people that sell you pills) would count these people as AA failures, but clearly these people's lives are generally greatly improved by their association with AA and the periods sobriety they string together.

 

So the actual success rate of people that come to AA willingly, and that truly want to get sober and stay sober is much, much higher. That said, if something is killing you, how high does the success rate have to be to try something that is free and open to anyone?

 

In any event, I've been sober and happy in AA for 32 years, my sister is  happy and sober for 36 years and I have countless generally happy sober friends. I can call most any one of them at any time, for help of any kind. My mother and father got to see me sober before they passed, my wife has never seen me take a drunk and my son that will be starting university this year has never seen take a drink.

 

But that's just me brother, you just keep gritting your teeth and taking those pills...

 

 

[Denim]

Quitting 100 percent might not be the only alternative.

 

When I felt I was drinking too much I decided to cut down. 

 

Two years ago I decided that I would have 2 alcohol free days a week.

 

Last year I increased that to 3 alcohol free days a week

 

This year I have so far succeeded in having 4 days off a week.

 

In addition I have a competition to see how many days I can go without alcohol 100 percent.

 

I started with just 8 but have now built it up to 16 days without drinking. Then if I relapse a little it doesn't matter. If I have a bad week and go over the 3 days of allowed drinking, the following week I claw the lost day or days back.

 

Finally, when drinking I always start off with a large glass of water before and after to keep myself hydrated.

 

Not total abstinance but moving in the right direction.

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Denim said:

Quitting 100 percent might not be the only alternative.

 

When I felt I was drinking too much I decided to cut down. 

 

Two years ago I decided that I would have 2 alcohol free days a week.

 

Last year I increased that to 3 alcohol free days a week

 

This year I have so far succeeded in having 4 days off a week.

 

In addition I have a competition to see how many days I can go without alcohol 100 percent.

 

I started with just 8 but have now built it up to 16 days without drinking. Then if I relapse a little it doesn't matter. If I have a bad week and go over the 3 days of allowed drinking, the following week I claw the lost day or days back.

 

Finally, when drinking I always start off with a large glass of water before and after to keep myself hydrated.

 

Not total abstinance but moving in the right direction.

 

As long as you can control and enjoy your drinking you're probably not an Alcoholic. If you can only do one or the other, you probably are. That said, most non-alcoholics don't worry about drinking. 

 

Never really developed a taste for water...

[Don Chance]

6 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

 

 

But that's just me brother, you just keep gritting your teeth and taking those pills...

 

 

 

I was cured by taking Baclofen for 4 years. Now i don't take any baclofen and am not addicted to alcohol. I could have a drink if i wanted too but i have no desire. Baclofen is an old drug, not expensive and is available in generic form. It is probably why you don't hear much about it, no company is pushing it. There are other drugs on the market which i hear work well too.

 

Going to AA meeting for the rest of your life sound like gritting your teeth. AA is just the old method because there was no effective treatment for alcoholism. It is the same when someone has any disease that is incurable they call a faith healer. 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Don Chance said:

 

I was cured by taking Baclofen for 4 years. Now i don't take any baclofen and am not addicted to alcohol. I could have a drink if i wanted too but i have no desire. Baclofen is an old drug, not expensive and is available in generic form. It is probably why you don't hear much about it, no company is pushing it. There are other drugs on the market which i hear work well too.

 

Going to AA meeting for the rest of your life sound like gritting your teeth. AA is just the old method because there was no effective treatment for alcoholism. It is the same when someone has any disease that is incurable they call a faith healer. 

 

That's great, good for you. 

 

I like going to meetings, seeing my friends, chatting and having coffee. I also like seeing people come in and watching them get sober and turn their lives around. If that's not something you'd enjoy, then AA might not be for you. And again, I think it's great the pills worked for you and congratulations on your sobriety. 

[Smelg]

Hemp seed oil really calmed me down after drinking a 12 pack everyday for 50 years ..never had 1 withdrawal problem ..

[Neeranam]

On 3/28/2021 at 1:24 AM, Don Chance said:

That's the problem with faith healing, it only last a month or few months. AA has only 5-10% rate of success in curing alcoholism, only slightly better than a placebo.

If you want to be miserable keep on going to AA meeting for years instead of taking some pills.

This rate is because there are many that go to AA who are not alcoholic. 

I'd say AA has about a 70% success with real alcoholics and higher if they are serious about going to any lengths. This means doing all the 12 steps. 20 years for me. 

Taking pills is definitely NOT the way for an alkie. 

[likerdup1]

On 8/9/2020 at 4:11 PM, Puchaiyank said:

You could use a support group like AA...ultimately,  you have to will yourself to be strong and resist alcohol's temptation. 

 

Good Luck!

 

 

If one is alcoholic by definition they lack self discipline to "resist alcohol's temptation" otherwise most all alcoholics would just stop drinking once things get bad. AA understands alcoholics are powerless to abstain on self will or "resist temptation" and recommends contact with a Power Greater to get the needed power. AA is a  spiritual program of action.

[likerdup1]

On 3/27/2021 at 9:17 PM, Yellowtail said:

 

First, AA has a zero percent rate of success in curing alcoholism. It is (as I understand it, and I speak only for myself)

 

 

Show me any AA literature stating that they have a cure for alcoholism. They do not. Only recovery. Where do you get these stats? Do you know what it takes to become recovered the AA way?

[likerdup1]

On 4/20/2021 at 8:48 AM, Neeranam said:

This rate is because there are many that go to AA who are not alcoholic. 

I'd say AA has about a 70% success with real alcoholics and higher if they are serious about going to any lengths. This means doing all the 12 steps. 20 years for me. 

Taking pills is definitely NOT the way for an alkie. 

Yes, also most all real alcoholics who go to AA meetings and do not do the 12 step program of recovery will relapse and not succeed. Many people don't understand there is a big difference between just going to AA meeting and really doing the 12 step work. Doing the 12 steps takes a lot of work, willingness, open mindedness and courage.

[Yellowtail]

Just now, likerdup1 said:

Show me any AA literature stating that they have a cure for alcoholism. They do not. Only recovery. Where do you get these stats? Do you know what it takes to become recovered the AA way?

Why not re-read what I said and explain how you disagree? 

 

I'm sober in AA for 34 years and three days, where do you get your stats?