Brothels? Not Any More!

Maejo Man · June 15, 2004

> The likes of Ping Payorm, Green Hills, Phucome Massage
Green Hills has massage??? You mean the Chiang Mai Hills hotel right? I mean, not that I would know first hand, of course, but it says so on the sign outside that I happened to notice while on my way to, erm, that church on Huay Kaew.

Cheers,

Chanchao

No Chanchao, I meant it as written. I always check my copy for syntax and obvious errors. Yes assuredly, there is the "Hills" as well, havent been there in ten years or more. I missed the turn off to church one sunday morning as well.

However the most memorable of the lot was the "Seventh Heaven" in the old Muangmai Hotel. Would put all these modern day impersonators to shame

Just as an aside I have never noticed a church on Huay Gaew, is it interdenominational?

Another aside in case you think my spelling is up the creek Huay Gaew is spelt with a "G" as in Gor-Gai and not a Kor-Kai as everyone seems to use. The same goes for Central shopping complex, "Gaad Suan Gaew" and not K. "Gaad" or gaad luang is old Chiangmai for market. In answer to your thought there, yes there are two Thai brothels nestling cozily at the back of the complex. Coupled with a gay "massage" a few doors along. Just happened to see them whilst shopping one day...........

john b good · June 15, 2004

And if you work that out as a percentage of the fcukable / marketable age females (say from 15 - 35 years of age) it's works out to be a pretty healthy (perhaps not so healthy) percentage of the group. Could be as high in my estimation as at least 25%

So you are saying that in your opinion 1 in every 4 females in Thailand between the age 15-35 is a prostitute of some sort?

I'm afraid you have a very skewed version of the country.

TH

TH

What I am saying is that the numbers speak for themselves.

A very well respected / connected,Thai female friend states that at just one of the universities in Chiangmai the vast majority of the female students are "kept"

This has been confirmed by other respected (and aware) Thai women.

Call it whatever you like but if they are receiving a financial consideration for services that they render they are on the game.

Add all the numbers up and the answers emerge.

Perhaps you might enlighten every one just how you would describe it.

I did say that it was a sad state of affairs

thaihome · June 15, 2004

What I am saying is that the numbers speak for themselves.
A very well respected / connected,Thai female friend states that at just one of the universities in Chiangmai the vast majority of the female students are "kept"

This has been confirmed by other respected (and aware) Thai women.

Call it whatever you like but if they are receiving a financial consideration for services that they render they are on the game.

Add all the numbers up and the answers emerge.

Perhaps you might enlighten every one just how you would describe it.

I did say that it was a sad state of affairs

I think you made my point about a skewed version of the country by bringing up the number of women in universities that are alleged to be "kept". What percentage of the women in the age group gets to go to university?

I don’t doubt that there are large numbers of women that are on the game, motivated by many different factors, as in any developing country. I just think that claiming that 25% of the young women in Thailand are prostitutes is a disservice to the many millions that work hard every day to make an “honest” living. These are ones that work in the factories and rice fields, work in the millions of minimum wage service jobs, etc, etc.

When you quote a number like 25%, you are talking about over 10 million women you are accusing of being prostitutes.

Not sure I disagree with your 2 million number, and I sure agree that is sad.

TH

Sao Jiang Mai · June 15, 2004

Sorry but that is absolutely nonsense John B Good. I don't know what people your respected friend associates herself with. I went to Regina Coeli school for 10 years and upon graduation one girl in a class of 160 wasn't a virgin (we were 15, now we are 30). Most of my friends remained so until marriage, many others were involved with boyfriends, a few were kept, but considering we are 160 middle class women, I would say less than 5% of these girls have gone on in life to do something we all consider a bit dodgy - mostly mia noy, only one a prostitute.

To say that most girls in CMU are on the game is just utter ignorance. Its farang men with this attitude that so annoys us Thais. Sure, many are, but the numbers you cite are just way out of porportion. Believe it or not, Thai society does not condone this behaviour, so its hardly a good career move. Only two types at CMU hook 1. the desperate, 2. the shallow and vain who want a better lifestyle. The majority are decent women trying to get an education.

stroll · June 15, 2004

"Ask any tuk tuk or taxi driver outside of the main tourist areas. (say the Sutthisarn/Inthamara area for example)"

There are karaoke and a-go-go bars frequented by Thais, I am referring to 'classic' style brothels.

My question remains, I rephrase it:

Any suggestion as to what to do if one has a strong objection to prepubescent kids being rented out, either in establishments or through individual 'pimps', who might well be a close relative?

It is easy to join the chorus of 'hang'em high', but what would you do if you had the suspicion your neighbour was involved?

chanchao · June 15, 2004

I agree with Sao Jiang Mai:

> I would say less than 5% of these girls have gone on in life to do something

> we all consider a bit dodgy - mostly mia noy, only one a prostitute.

But:

> To say that most girls in CMU are on the game is just utter ignorance.

Nobody said "CMU". The orignal post was:

> A very well respected / connected,Thai female friend states that at

> just one of the universities in Chiangmai the vast majority of the

> female students are "kept"

So 'one of the universities in Chiang Mai', likely not CMU as there are quite a lot of 'univerisities' in Chiang Mai these days, as quite a few colleges and institutes seem to have been promoted to university status... Actually it's not really uncommon for students of respected universities to accuse students of other slightly less respected universties of all kinds of things, most notably being mia nois / having sugar daddies or even being prosititutes outright. I have some friends who were CMU students as well, and they didn't have all that many good things to say about Payap students....

I'm willing to bet that Sow Jiang Mai went to CMU? For sure CMU is very highly respected and most likely beyond all this, as you have to take a serious entrance exam to get in. You can't just get a sugar daddy to pay your way in*. (* yes I can imagine exceptions to this rule.. )

So anyway, that was a lot of text to say that no matter how well connected/respected anyone's friend is, if he/she went to CMU then she heard all the gossip about Payap and worse, the Techno/business colleges. :-) A lot of it may be true, but also a lot of it is university/student gossip & sub culture politics.

Cheers,

Chanchao

chanchao · June 15, 2004

> Just as an aside I have never noticed a church on Huay Gaew, is it

> interdenominational?

If that means the same as 'Catholic' then yes. :-)

(So I guess: 'no'. ;-) It's called Seven Fountains and is not far after the Canal Road intersection on the right, next to Lanna 3 condominium. )

> Another aside in case you think my spelling is up the creek Huay

> Gaew is spelt with a "G" as in Gor-Gai and not a Kor-Kai as

> everyone seems to use. The same goes for Central shopping

> complex, "Gaad Suan Gaew"

Well.. One thing I'm not going to do is debate preferred transliterations from Thai to English. It seems there are as many preferred transliterations as there are people. If you prefer to transliterate g-gai as g and k-kai (as in egg) as k then that's just fine with me. Others may prefer k-kai (chicken) and kh-khai (egg), so k and kh. Again that's fine with me too, and if people also remain consistent within their own writing scheme then I wouldn't dream to ask for more I personally do k - kh, but will not get religious about it and just accept that transliterations are all over the place. Note that any particular preference also depends on where the person is from; g-gai and k-kai (egg) work perfectly if you're English/American, but for people from elsewhere k an kh may be more obvious. The only 100% correct and reliable way would be to actually use Thai writing, which isn't convenient in the context of this forum.

I spell Huay Kaew because it appears that way on most (!) but not all street signs. And if Kad Suan Kaew spell their own company name that way then I tend to just go along. You might as well try to tell the Carrefour people to change their sign to "Khaafua". I can also easily list 25 different spellings of Huay Gaew that actually occur on signs and business names! Would you believe 'Huey Geao' 'Huay Keo' etc etc etc. So whatever anyone spells I'm totally fine with it as long as I understand what street is intended. It's silly to start a 'my transliteration is better than your transliteration' thing, because you'll never reach agreement.

Cheers,

Chanchao

Edited June 15, 2004 by chanchao

sabaijai · June 15, 2004

I've followed Khun Pim's reportorial work for a long time, probably since she first began publishing in Chiang Mai, and find her journalistic integrity to be beyond reproach. Not to say she doesn't err on occasion, everyone does, but she is not by any stretch of the imagination, 'sloppy'.

Re G vs K for Kaew, Kat, etc: As Chanchao says, if you want to use a G for this sound, go ahead. However it's not the same sound as the /g/ in English. It's more akin to the /k/ in the word 'skin'. The English /g/ is a voiced consonant, the Thai /k/ is not. The reason Thai translits use /kh/ instead of /k/ is to emphasise the aspiration.

g - voiced, unaspirated (doesn't exist in Thai)

k -- unvoiced, unaspirated (both Thai & English)

kh - unvoiced, aspirated (both Thai & English)

chanchao · June 15, 2004

Sow Jiang Mai / k. Pim!!! I just read the whole article from Citylife from the link you provided. Thank you very much!!! I think it's a truly excellent piece of journalism, MUCH better frankly than the standard sensational blurb in that Australian newspaper. Needless to say I also found it very shocking.

I do have some questions and remarks about some things in the report:

> If anyone reports a case of suspected paedophilia, then the

> authorities have the right to go into any building without a search

> warrant and remove the child without the permission of the parents.

Really? I would find that a bit disturbing... Like if I get into an argument with just anybody I could accuse the person of child abuse and have police take his kids away without a warrant or any initial legal procudure? I know the measure is well-intended, but it also sounds rather scary to me.

And another thing:

> Child Trafficking

> • According to the World Tourism Association, every year

> 120,000,000 trips are made with sexual objectives in mind

> in the world. Yes, One Hundred and Twenty Million!

I personally feel that far too many TV documentaries, magazine stories and newspaper reports make this link between paedophelia and 'main stream' sex tourism. I'm not sure this is done to juice up the story, to bring it closer to the 'home' of the readership, or because they're just uninformed or don't care.

I think that when Joe Schmoe goes to Samui with the blokes for some sun, sea and bargirls, I don't think this is overly relevant in a discussion on child abuse and child prostitution. Don't take this as too much of a criticism, after all CNN and BBC do it too, like write up or shoot a sometimes good report about child sexual abuse but then they seem to go "Aaahh.. visuals.. visuals... need some pictures.." "You know what, let's take the crew down to Patpong and Soi Cowboy and shoot some!". (!!!) In doing so they create a totally false and misleading image, like the audience listens about a serious, shocking problem, but sees Joe Schmoe with the blokes at Patpong... I think that's misleading. Ok I'm getting carried away, your article is still a lot better than most things I read in the international press/media!!

> One of the last big busts of a brothel was the arrest of the owner of

> Charoen Muang’s Pandora in November. Sixteen under aged

> prostitutes were discovered.

Any updates as to what happened to him? Was he convicted and for how long? And is Pandora still in operation? Also this touches a tiny little bit on my previous point.. like you've been painting an excellent and shocking image of abuse of children as young as 3 years old, but then add this bit about a bust where 'under aged' prostitues were found.... I won't comment too much about it without knowing the ages involved, but I have a feeling it was closer to 16-17 than pre-puberty kids right? Great that the place was busted and the guy hopefully convicted because I too feel that 16 year olds should be in school and not in a massage parlour fish bowl, but... not sure this is the same mechanics at work that result in the abuse of very young children. The 16-17 year olds most likely just went up there for a job interview.. I don't blame you for mentioning it, but perhaps would have partitioned these things more as separate issues deserving different action. (NOT necessarily less action, but different action!)

(And the cynic in me thinks that busts of this type are most likley not driven by tips about child abuse to children/vice police teams but are just as likely to be driven by police-politics, commissions, and tea-money issues on the part of different police teams.....) Never mind answering 'is Pandora still in operation', which was a bit of a rhetorical question because I know it is still open. (And I SWEAR I know this because I sometimes eat at the excellent 'taam sang' food place opposite it near the old Vista cinema. )

> According to a 1998 ILO report it is estimated that 100,000 to 200,000

> Thai women and children are in brothels and nightclubs in foreign

> countries.

ILO was that same organization who put the number of child prostitues in Thailand at 800,000 right...? International Labour Organisation you commented on as providing 'high' figures? So I would be a bit more critical at these figures too. Furthermore, like so many organisations, they seem to make no difference between a 5 year old and a 17 year old, just putting them all in the 'children' statistic. Even worse: The quote above doesn't even attempt to distinguish between adult women and children!! That would be enough reason for me not to give the ILO much credit on this topic.

Thanks again for posting here and posting the link to the Citylife article!!

Cheers,

Chanchao

Edited June 15, 2004 by chanchao

ChiangMaiThai · June 15, 2004

Sorry but that is absolutely nonsense John B Good. I don't know what people your respected friend associates herself with. I went to Regina Coeli school for 10 years and upon graduation one girl in a class of 160 wasn't a virgin (we were 15, now we are 30). Most of my friends remained so until marriage, many others were involved with boyfriends, a few were kept, but considering we are 160 middle class women, I would say less than 5% of these girls have gone on in life to do something we all consider a bit dodgy - mostly mia noy, only one a prostitute.
To say that most girls in CMU are on the game is just utter ignorance. Its farang men with this attitude that so annoys us Thais. Sure, many are, but the numbers you cite are just way out of porportion. Believe it or not, Thai society does not condone this behaviour, so its hardly a good career move. Only two types at CMU hook 1. the desperate, 2. the shallow and vain who want a better lifestyle. The majority are decent women trying to get an education.

A very well educated and well informed Thai teacher who I am friend's with told me that 'absolutely, at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking in their spare time'.

That I believe. The fact that 40% of the female student population at a major university is available for some amount of money will most certainly influence the opinions that both Thai and Farang men have of Thai women in general whether you like it or not.

This same teacher estimated that the number at CMU might be about 5%. Of course this is so because the CMU girls are on their way to decent jobs and opportunities.

May I also suggest that you may be a little out of the loop so to speak? A lot has changed in the past 15 years...

john b good · June 15, 2004

Sorry but that is absolutely nonsense John B Good. I don't know what people your respected friend associates herself with. I went to Regina Coeli school for 10 years and upon graduation one girl in a class of 160 wasn't a virgin (we were 15, now we are 30). Most of my friends remained so until marriage, many others were involved with boyfriends, a few were kept, but considering we are 160 middle class women, I would say less than 5% of these girls have gone on in life to do something we all consider a bit dodgy - mostly mia noy, only one a prostitute.
To say that most girls in CMU are on the game is just utter ignorance. Its farang men with this attitude that so annoys us Thais. Sure, many are, but the numbers you cite are just way out of porportion. Believe it or not, Thai society does not condone this behaviour, so its hardly a good career move. Only two types at CMU hook 1. the desperate, 2. the shallow and vain who want a better lifestyle. The majority are decent women trying to get an education.

A very well educated and well informed Thai teacher who I am friend's with told me that 'absolutely, at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking in their spare time'.

That I believe. The fact that 40% of the female student population at a major university is available for some amount of money will most certainly influence the opinions that both Thai and Farang men have of Thai women in general whether you like it or not.

This same teacher estimated that the number at CMU might be about 5%. Of course this is so because the CMU girls are on their way to decent jobs and opportunities.

May I also suggest that you may be a little out of the loop so to speak? A lot has changed in the past 15 years...

Sao Jiang Mai.

How can you make such a statement. I mean do girls who attend Regina Coeli (or Pharathai etc) really sit down and have a hands up (no pun intended) when they graduate and say "I am still a virgin" and even if they did who sez that they are really for real (telling the truth)

Of course every one who wants to stay marriageable (to a Thai man) is gonna say that.

I accept 100% that when some farang man comes along and dispells a few myths about Thailand you are gonna be a bit piss*d off.

But believe it or not a goodly number of these same farang men have seen a lot more of Thailand (warts and all) than the majority of the "sheltered" Thai girls have.

Anyway I am happy that you defend your country and would be very disappointed if you didn't.

p.s. I made no refernce to any university in particular. People should actually read what is written.

Ajarn · June 15, 2004

Sorry but that is absolutely nonsense John B Good. I don't know what people your respected friend associates herself with. I went to Regina Coeli school for 10 years and upon graduation one girl in a class of 160 wasn't a virgin (we were 15, now we are 30). Most of my friends remained so until marriage, many others were involved with boyfriends, a few were kept, but considering we are 160 middle class women, I would say less than 5% of these girls have gone on in life to do something we all consider a bit dodgy - mostly mia noy, only one a prostitute.
To say that most girls in CMU are on the game is just utter ignorance. Its farang men with this attitude that so annoys us Thais. Sure, many are, but the numbers you cite are just way out of porportion. Believe it or not, Thai society does not condone this behaviour, so its hardly a good career move. Only two types at CMU hook 1. the desperate, 2. the shallow and vain who want a better lifestyle. The majority are decent women trying to get an education.

A very well educated and well informed Thai teacher who I am friend's with told me that 'absolutely, at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking in their spare time'. That I believe

Why does it seem like common sense is being tossed out the window with some of you guys? Which head are some of you guys using to think up this stuff?

How is this teacher going to know ABSULUTELY that at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking???

A totally ridiculous statement. The ONLY way this could possibly make sense would be if your teacher friend is the one using the 40%+ students himself...This is obviously bullshit, as is the statement from your teacher friend

ChiangMaiThai · June 15, 2004

Sorry but that is absolutely nonsense John B Good. I don't know what people your respected friend associates herself with. I went to Regina Coeli school for 10 years and upon graduation one girl in a class of 160 wasn't a virgin (we were 15, now we are 30). Most of my friends remained so until marriage, many others were involved with boyfriends, a few were kept, but considering we are 160 middle class women, I would say less than 5% of these girls have gone on in life to do something we all consider a bit dodgy - mostly mia noy, only one a prostitute.
To say that most girls in CMU are on the game is just utter ignorance. Its farang men with this attitude that so annoys us Thais. Sure, many are, but the numbers you cite are just way out of porportion. Believe it or not, Thai society does not condone this behaviour, so its hardly a good career move. Only two types at CMU hook 1. the desperate, 2. the shallow and vain who want a better lifestyle. The majority are decent women trying to get an education.

A very well educated and well informed Thai teacher who I am friend's with told me that 'absolutely, at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking in their spare time'. That I believe

Why does it seem like common sense is being tossed out the window with some of you guys? Which head are some of you guys using to think up this stuff?

How is this teacher going to know ABSULUTELY that at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking???

A totally ridiculous statement. The ONLY way this could possibly make sense would be if your teacher friend is the one using the 40%+ students himself...This is obviously bullshit, as is the statement from your teacher friend

Look, a very well educated and well informed THAI teacher who has been involved with a number of universities in Chiang Mai for nearly 10 years on a full time basis estimates that 40% are hooking. So maybe its 30%. Maybe its 50%. I found this a bit surprising myself until I asked my Thai friends what they thought and they guessed in the 50% range.

Why do you find this so hard to believe? If it was said of CMU or Mahidol, okay, its obviously bullshit, but Payap and a number of other uni's across the whole country are a different story. Are you in denial? Why do I get the feeling that you either teach at Payap or have a GF who attends?

Ajarn · June 15, 2004

Sorry but that is absolutely nonsense John B Good. I don't know what people your respected friend associates herself with. I went to Regina Coeli school for 10 years and upon graduation one girl in a class of 160 wasn't a virgin (we were 15, now we are 30). Most of my friends remained so until marriage, many others were involved with boyfriends, a few were kept, but considering we are 160 middle class women, I would say less than 5% of these girls have gone on in life to do something we all consider a bit dodgy - mostly mia noy, only one a prostitute.
To say that most girls in CMU are on the game is just utter ignorance. Its farang men with this attitude that so annoys us Thais. Sure, many are, but the numbers you cite are just way out of porportion. Believe it or not, Thai society does not condone this behaviour, so its hardly a good career move. Only two types at CMU hook 1. the desperate, 2. the shallow and vain who want a better lifestyle. The majority are decent women trying to get an education.

A very well educated and well informed Thai teacher who I am friend's with told me that 'absolutely, at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking in their spare time'. That I believe

Why does it seem like common sense is being tossed out the window with some of you guys? Which head are some of you guys using to think up this stuff?

How is this teacher going to know ABSULUTELY that at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking???

A totally ridiculous statement. The ONLY way this could possibly make sense would be if your teacher friend is the one using the 40%+ students himself...This is obviously bullshit, as is the statement from your teacher friend

Look, a very well educated and well informed THAI teacher who has been involved with a number of universities in Chiang Mai for nearly 10 years on a full time basis estimates that 40% are hooking. So maybe its 30%. Maybe its 50%. I found this a bit surprising myself until I asked my Thai friends what they thought and they guessed in the 50% range.

Why do you find this so hard to believe? If it was said of CMU or Mahidol, okay, its obviously bullshit, but Payap and a number of other uni's across the whole country are a different story. Are you in denial? Why do I get the feeling that you either teach at Payap or have a GF who attends?

Look, I taught full time in Thai schools for 16 years, mostly in universities, including CMU and Payap. I am no more an authority on percentages of student prostitutes than your friend... As I said, there is ONLY one way for your friend to know ABSOLUTELY.

Some bullshit is easy to see if your eyes are open....And just because a Thai person has an opinion doesn't mean they have any more of a clue than you. Tons of bullshit flies around among people who don't a clue, but still have an opinion

Oh, apologies for the crack about thinking with your penis. I'm sure it didn't help you to see things my way, and I would like you to 'get it'...

Johpa · June 15, 2004

So you are saying that in your opinion 1 in every 4 females in Thailand between the age 15-35 is a prostitute of some sort?
I'm afraid you have a very skewed version of the country.

TH

I believe it was stated in an ILO report back around 1980 that closer to 30% of all Thai women between the ages of 15 and 55 have worked in the sex industry, offered their bodies for sex in exchange for monetary reward, at one point in time. That is not the same as saying that 1 out of 4 are currently involved at any one time. It is the Thai ruling elite that has skewed Thai cultiure. Chaiyo!

marsbloke · June 15, 2004

Overall though, I think "brothels" in the strictest definition of the word may be on their way to be become VERY marginalized. (Even more so than is already the case) This because Thai law makes a big difference between places where sex takes place on the premise itself, and places where prostitutes are merely taken out. There's MUCH less punishment in the books for the latter.
So to counter the balance, what you may see more will be small pubs/bars/karaokes where prostitutes can be taken out to a cheapo shorttime hotel. Or even places where women cannot be taken out at all and anything that happens are just after-hours liaisons that really start to blur the line between 'prostitution' and 'getting a girlfriend/mistress who works in a restaurant'.

For an example, drive down Wiang Phing road in the evening.

Cheers,

Chanchao

Well then Sayuri is a brothel, as you said, as it takes place on premises. Are it and similar establishments too to be marginalized? Or is it only the places for the lower classes?

As for the places where girls can be taken out, CM had that with Sandidham, and that too has been closed down (at least was when I was there last year). I don't know about the places near the Imperial Mae Ping, were they shut too?

Face facts, there is a war taking place against commercial sex, certainly by Thaksin, but also by countless NGOs who pretend to be humanitarian but are in reality following an agenda set by corporate globablization. Comm'l sex is going to get harder and harder to find, and more and more expensive (maybe the shutting of all the low end competition is what enabled Sayuri to raise its prices again) This is nothing less than an attack on personal freedoms, whatever the pretext they use. It's right out of Orwell's 1984.

Where's Wiang Phing road? Never heard of it.

marsbloke · June 15, 2004

Another aside in case you think my spelling is up the creek Huay Gaew is spelt with a "G" as in Gor-Gai and not a Kor-Kai as everyone seems to use. The same goes for Central shopping complex, "Gaad Suan Gaew" and not K. "Gaad" or gaad luang is old Chiangmai for market. In answer to your thought there, yes there are two Thai brothels nestling cozily at the back of the complex. Coupled with a gay "massage" a few doors along. Just happened to see them whilst shopping one day...........

What is this "Green Hills?" I have never heard of it.

Go go bars, beer bars, etc., should not be considered brothels. The only brothels I knew of in CM were the ones on Sittiwong St and the ones off Nimmenheimen Soi 13. They were shut down last year, along with all the tea houses in the Chang Phuak area. Was any of this stuff ever reopened?

Johpa · June 15, 2004

To say that most girls in CMU are on the game is just utter ignorance. Its farang men with this attitude that so annoys us Thais. Sure, many are, but the numbers you cite are just way out of porportion. Believe it or not, Thai society does not condone this behaviour, so its hardly a good career move. Only two types at CMU hook 1. the desperate, 2. the shallow and vain who want a better lifestyle. The majority are decent women trying to get an education.

Most students I knew at CMU are from very good families and would not need to be looking for additional funds. But Sao Chiang Mai is, IMHO, incorrect in saying that Thai society does not condone prostitution. Thai society does indeed condone sex for hire, even though its citizens may deny it. It is an accepted option for the vast majority of Thailand’s citizens although surely nobody is going to brag about it. But you can’t find a single village in Thailand where people do not know whose daughter is working in which city despite the heavy usage of euphemisms like “she is working in a restaurant in Chiang Mai.”

There certainly are some students at the local colleges, including the prestigious CMU, who do sell their bodies. They are not necessarily desperate, but certainly they are at wits ends on how to financially survive and continue their education. They are no different than the thousands of American college students from lower middle class families who work the local strip clubs, or Las Vegas during break (along with the young schoolteachers) to make ends meet. And although some may be "shallow and vain" (probably a far smaller percentage than those from the wealthy Bangkok families who take the concept of shallow and vain to a new quantum level) many are pretty normal young adults just coping with a society that makes sure they have few options. I have even met some of my former students working the hotel bars in Chiang Mai. So most of these college women are just as decent women trying to get an eduaction as are their counterparts from the wealthier families.

Prostitution flourishes in Thailand because it is profitable not only for the workers at the low end, but is extremely profitable for the "brothel" owners and those who provide protection. There is absolutely no motivation to rid Thailand of prostitution as it provides a steady cash flow to the elite, and especially to the politicians. Toxin is somewhat unique in that his millions come from high tech monopolies. I am somewhat surprised he has survived this long.

Sao Chiang Mai, considering that only 10% of the prostitutes in Thailand work with foreign men, perhaps you and the rest of the Thais who are annoyed with farang's perceived attitudes need to look a wee bit closer in the mirror.

marsbloke · June 15, 2004

Sow Jiang Mai / k. Pim!!! I just read the whole article from Citylife from the link you provided. Thank you very much!!! I think it's a truly excellent piece of journalism, MUCH better frankly than the standard sensational blurb in that Australian newspaper. Needless to say I also found it very shocking.
I do have some questions and remarks about some things in the report:

> If anyone reports a case of suspected paedophilia, then the

> authorities have the right to go into any building without a search

> warrant and remove the child without the permission of the parents.

Really? I would find that a bit disturbing... Like if I get into an argument with just anybody I could accuse the person of child abuse and have police take his kids away without a warrant or any initial legal procudure? I know the measure is well-intended, but it also sounds rather scary to me.

And another thing:

> Child Trafficking

> • According to the World Tourism Association, every year

> 120,000,000 trips are made with sexual objectives in mind

> in the world. Yes, One Hundred and Twenty Million!

I personally feel that far too many TV documentaries, magazine stories and newspaper reports make this link between paedophelia and 'main stream' sex tourism. I'm not sure this is done to juice up the story, to bring it closer to the 'home' of the readership, or because they're just uninformed or don't care.

I think that when Joe Schmoe goes to Samui with the blokes for some sun, sea and bargirls, I don't think this is overly relevant in a discussion on child abuse and child prostitution. Don't take this as too much of a criticism, after all CNN and BBC do it too, like write up or shoot a sometimes good report about child sexual abuse but then they seem to go "Aaahh.. visuals.. visuals... need some pictures.." "You know what, let's take the crew down to Patpong and Soi Cowboy and shoot some!". (!!!) In doing so they create a totally false and misleading image, like the audience listens about a serious, shocking problem, but sees Joe Schmoe with the blokes at Patpong... I think that's misleading. Ok I'm getting carried away, your article is still a lot better than most things I read in the international press/media!!

> One of the last big busts of a brothel was the arrest of the owner of

> Charoen Muang’s Pandora in November. Sixteen under aged

> prostitutes were discovered.

Any updates as to what happened to him? Was he convicted and for how long? And is Pandora still in operation? Also this touches a tiny little bit on my previous point.. like you've been painting an excellent and shocking image of abuse of children as young as 3 years old, but then add this bit about a bust where 'under aged' prostitues were found.... I won't comment too much about it without knowing the ages involved, but I have a feeling it was closer to 16-17 than pre-puberty kids right? Great that the place was busted and the guy hopefully convicted because I too feel that 16 year olds should be in school and not in a massage parlour fish bowl, but... not sure this is the same mechanics at work that result in the abuse of very young children. The 16-17 year olds most likely just went up there for a job interview.. I don't blame you for mentioning it, but perhaps would have partitioned these things more as separate issues deserving different action. (NOT necessarily less action, but different action!)

(And the cynic in me thinks that busts of this type are most likley not driven by tips about child abuse to children/vice police teams but are just as likely to be driven by police-politics, commissions, and tea-money issues on the part of different police teams.....) Never mind answering 'is Pandora still in operation', which was a bit of a rhetorical question because I know it is still open. (And I SWEAR I know this because I sometimes eat at the excellent 'taam sang' food place opposite it near the old Vista cinema. )

> According to a 1998 ILO report it is estimated that 100,000 to 200,000

> Thai women and children are in brothels and nightclubs in foreign

> countries.

ILO was that same organization who put the number of child prostitues in Thailand at 800,000 right...? International Labour Organisation you commented on as providing 'high' figures? So I would be a bit more critical at these figures too. Furthermore, like so many organisations, they seem to make no difference between a 5 year old and a 17 year old, just putting them all in the 'children' statistic. Even worse: The quote above doesn't even attempt to distinguish between adult women and children!! That would be enough reason for me not to give the ILO much credit on this topic.

Thanks again for posting here and posting the link to the Citylife article!!

Cheers,

Chanchao

Chanchao is partially correct. Without a doubt, media portrayal of pedophilia and child traficking is wildly exaggerated. As it is today you can't even go to Cambodia because the media have succeeded in creating the impression that anybody who goes there is a pedophile.

There are several reasons for this media exaggeration. First of all, the media love to sensationalize. They love to terrify and tittilate, that is why they run stories about sex with tremendous exaggerations of its "danger." There are innumerable NGOs now which are also feeding the media wild exaggerations, because the name of the game in the NGO biz is exaggerate wildly in order to get funding. The heads of these NGOs are not selfless charitable ascetics who just want to help people, they make big bucks. Another reason the media exaggerate is because the media, despite pretensions to the contrary, are in the business of supporting the establishment, and the Globalization Establishment now has a very clear program to demonize commercial sex and shut it down as much as they can, for which program they are letting the NGOs do the work for them. This is a clear pattern; when the Globalization Establishment which wants to take away our freedoms and create a global corporate dictatorship needs to create an issue, they use the NGOs to create the "need for action." Check out who funds the NGOs and you'll find corporations and corporate owned foundations.

Personally, I find it rather odd that people get so hot under the collar about pedophilia, ready to castrate people and tear them limb from limb with their bare hands, but don't get upset when US or Israeli or whatever armed forces kill little kids, as they do all the time with their bombs and guns and depleted uranium shells which have caused hundreds of thousands of cases of leukemia wherever they've been used. Or the millions of children who starve in the third world because of the Structural Adjustment policies of the World Bank and IMF. Pedophilia is terrible, but compared to so many other crimes against children, it is very minor. Again, the focus on it is not due to any morality of the Establishment (what a joke!) but to distract you from other bigger crimes. They're just pushing your "hot buttons" just like Bush does when he makes an issue of a silly thing like gay marriage. They know how to manipulate the people, they've been doing it for eons, and in this the media are their faithful servants.

marsbloke · June 15, 2004

Sorry but that is absolutely nonsense John B Good. I don't know what people your respected friend associates herself with. I went to Regina Coeli school for 10 years and upon graduation one girl in a class of 160 wasn't a virgin (we were 15, now we are 30). Most of my friends remained so until marriage, many others were involved with boyfriends, a few were kept, but considering we are 160 middle class women, I would say less than 5% of these girls have gone on in life to do something we all consider a bit dodgy - mostly mia noy, only one a prostitute.
To say that most girls in CMU are on the game is just utter ignorance. Its farang men with this attitude that so annoys us Thais. Sure, many are, but the numbers you cite are just way out of porportion. Believe it or not, Thai society does not condone this behaviour, so its hardly a good career move. Only two types at CMU hook 1. the desperate, 2. the shallow and vain who want a better lifestyle. The majority are decent women trying to get an education.

, Thai society does not condone this behaviour, so its hardly a good career move. Only two types at CMU hook 1. the desperate, 2. the shallow and vain who want a better lifestyle. The majority are decent women trying to get an education.

And prostitutes are not decent? Why not? Some of the finest women I've ever known have been prostitutes. When is society going to grant these selfless women the respect they deserve?

stroll · June 16, 2004

"And prostitutes are not decent? Why not? Some of the finest women I've ever known have been prostitutes. When is society going to grant these selfless women the respect they deserve?"

I suggest you post this somewhere in the expat life section of this forum, as well.

Should be fun.

john b good · June 16, 2004

So you are saying that in your opinion 1 in every 4 females in Thailand between the age 15-35 is a prostitute of some sort?

I'm afraid you have a very skewed version of the country.

TH

I believe it was stated in an ILO report back around 1980 that closer to 30% of all Thai women between the ages of 15 and 55 have worked in the sex industry, offered their bodies for sex in exchange for monetary reward, at one point in time. That is not the same as saying that 1 out of 4 are currently involved at any one time. It is the Thai ruling elite that has skewed Thai cultiure. Chaiyo!

I suggest that the figures (from the likes of the ILO etc) stack up even if some were arrrived at some time back.

It was headlines following the crash of 1997 that vast numbers of Thai females were turning to the game to help underwrite their living expenses (not to mention their ongoing desire to have the latest mobile phone and / or LV handbags) The articles even included females working in insurance, finance and in banks as having turned to the mode.

On the issue of thinking with the head of ones penis thats a relevant point

It is however important that people remove their heads (whichever head, but particularly the head where the brain generally resides) from the sand.

One only need to refer to the Oxford dictionary for the definition (s) of prostitute and whore.

A "prostitute" is a person who offers herself or himself for sex with somebody in return for money.

A "whore" is a a woman who is not sexually faithful to one man or who has sex with a lot of men.

A "hooker" (esp US) is a prostitute.

This can be taken then to mean that a whore is not necessarily a prostitute (can just be a woman who can't get enough and gives it away free for the "sanook") but in the context which we are discussing here is a prostitute.

We should give the semantics a miss.

If a person (and the thread here is about Thai females) is gaining money for dropping dropping her pants for financial gain she fits all three of the definitions.

As I wrote in an early post on this thread I can understand that a Thai female gets a bit piss*d off when a visitor to the country casts such comments about the morality of it's females.

Why then are Thai females to the fore (hooking their wares) in the majority of countries around the world, from the UK, the UAE, Singapore, US, NZ and Australia, and many more as well

The only places where they are not in the majority is in the countries where the indigenous competition is to the fore.

But the facts cannot be ignored.

It doesn't give me any real joy to view Thailand in this light (I have a Thai wife. One who never worked the bars etc) but by burying ones head in the sand is not gonna change the facts.

Only by recognising the problem and accepting that it exists can anyone even begin to resolve it.

My apologies to the 159 graduates from Regina Coeli if you are offended.

p.s. I don't think that I have referred in any of my ramblings, to Thai prostitues as not being decent. I agree with your sentiments on this sub issue.

It is however, rather pertinent that this is the thinking of Sao Jiang Mai and those that she represents.

cutethaigirl · June 16, 2004

Mars Bloke

Do you come from there??

stroll · June 16, 2004

I do take your point john, Thailand has a reputation for prostitution, and statistics indicate that the proportion of women who are 'on the game' at some point in their life is high, but let's not forget that statistics are deceptive, and also, somebody who worked as a part-time freelancer in 1997 or during their college education, has done just that, worked in the trade temporarily.

"Why then are Thai females to the fore (hooking their wares) in the majority of countries around the world, from the UK, the UAE, Singapore, US, NZ and Australia, and many more as well"

Let's not bury our heads in the sand, but let's not stick it out above the clouds, either. Isn't this just a bit exaggerated? How large is Thailand's female population that Thai whores are 'at the fore' in their profession worldwide, even if the statistics are right?

Anyway, as mentioned earlier, I think maybe this discussion would be a useful one conducted by Thais in public, like a tv show, and look at the way their country is run and prostitution is not only tolerated, but promoted. If this wasn't so, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

chanchao · June 16, 2004

> Where's Wiang Phing road? Never heard of it.

Say you're in front of the Mae Ping hotel on Kamphaen Din road, then go South and keep going South past the interesection with Sridonchai Rd. Then you get to where everyone turns left across the little bridge over the Mae Kha stream (everyone turns left because it's a virtual dead-end if you'd go straight).

Then you get to traffic lights, turn right, past the "Mae lae Dek" hospital. That's Wiang Phing road.

Alternatively, you could turn South at Chiang Mai gate, past the Ruam Phet hospital and then the Chiang Mai gate hotel.. Really erie little area there with some temple/chedi ruins, a nice market, a big bodhi tree etc.. keep going South until you hit Wiang Phing road.

Johpa wrote:

> Thai society does indeed condone sex for hire, even though

> its citizens may deny it.

It seems to depend a little bit on who is doing the hooking.. If it's hilltribe or poor rural girls working in the "cafe's" then it seems totally accepted.. However when it's middle class university girls putting out (i.e. the daughters of the establishment) then it suddenly causes a big stir. Interesting.

Also knowing that your figures of "30% of women are or have been on the game" come from the ILO makes me doubt this a little bit... Reading all the other ILO figures really make me doubt this insitution as an authority on this topic. I mean they're even wilder claims than the likes of ECPAT and other looney NGO's attempt..

Cheers,

Chanchao

p1p · June 16, 2004

Personally, I find it rather odd that people get so hot under the collar about pedophilia, ready to castrate people and tear them limb from limb with their bare hands, but don't get upset when US or Israeli or whatever armed forces kill little kids, as they do all the time with their bombs and guns and depleted uranium shells which have caused hundreds of thousands of cases of leukemia wherever they've been used. Or the millions of children who starve in the third world because of the Structural Adjustment policies of the World Bank and IMF. Pedophilia is terrible, but compared to so many other crimes against children, it is very minor. Again, the focus on it is not due to any morality of the Establishment (what a joke!) but to distract you from other bigger crimes. They're just pushing your "hot buttons" just like Bush does when he makes an issue of a silly thing like gay marriage. They know how to manipulate the people, they've been doing it for eons, and in this the media are their faithful servants.

marsbloke. I think you miss the point. The two evils are in no way mutually exclusive. When paedophilia is under discussion; to talk about war, famine, pollution or global warming is simply a distraction and bears no relation to the subject at hand.

As regards prostitution and the percentage of Thai girls who sell their bodies. No statistics are reliable. They are all heavily skewed by those with vested interests or chips on their shoulders. Men who use prostitutes are highly likely to inflate their perceived percentage of girls on the game. Decent women and those who are in monogamous relationships will likely understate.

My personal belief is that there are far fewer girls selling their bodies than most statistics would seem to imply. I have had four serious relationships with Thai women in my life. Each relationship started when the lady was well into her twenties and all of the girls were virgins at the outset.

Furthermore I was heavily involved with ECPAT-(End Child Prostitution In Asian Tourism), ASI-(Anti Slavery International), Christian Aid, Oxfam and other NGOs and Charities when we were trying to get foreign governments to legislate to allow prosecution of extra territorial sexual offences. All of these bodies fully recognised the unreliability of their statistics.

I will be closing this thread shortlty as it seems to be getting somewhat out of hand. So please make any final posts soon.

stroll · June 16, 2004

"getting out of hand" -geez, you have some peculiar views!

chanchao · June 16, 2004

> I will be closing this thread shortlty as it seems to be getting

> somewhat out of hand. So please make any final posts soon.

Please don't. By any standards for this particular topic, this discussion so far is among the very best ever, anywhere. Also I thought Sow Jiang Mai's contribution was excellent, and I'd really like this to remain open in case she has more things to add. Sometimes nasty things just have to be discussed, that's what discussion forums are all about.

Of course if and when we get more of the violent mob posts then closing remains an option IMHO.. (Though deleting or trimming those posts is an option as well; in any case let's make an effort to not let this topic go down the drain again.)

Cheers,

Chanchao

Edited June 16, 2004 by chanchao

Ulysses G. · June 16, 2004

It should me noted that "Sow Jiang Mai" is 100% farang, as far as her mind goes, but she also has insights into Thais that the rest of us don't, being Luk Krung.

ChiangMaiThai · June 16, 2004

Sorry but that is absolutely nonsense John B Good. I don't know what people your respected friend associates herself with. I went to Regina Coeli school for 10 years and upon graduation one girl in a class of 160 wasn't a virgin (we were 15, now we are 30). Most of my friends remained so until marriage, many others were involved with boyfriends, a few were kept, but considering we are 160 middle class women, I would say less than 5% of these girls have gone on in life to do something we all consider a bit dodgy - mostly mia noy, only one a prostitute.
To say that most girls in CMU are on the game is just utter ignorance. Its farang men with this attitude that so annoys us Thais. Sure, many are, but the numbers you cite are just way out of porportion. Believe it or not, Thai society does not condone this behaviour, so its hardly a good career move. Only two types at CMU hook 1. the desperate, 2. the shallow and vain who want a better lifestyle. The majority are decent women trying to get an education.

A very well educated and well informed Thai teacher who I am friend's with told me that 'absolutely, at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking in their spare time'. That I believe

Why does it seem like common sense is being tossed out the window with some of you guys? Which head are some of you guys using to think up this stuff?

How is this teacher going to know ABSULUTELY that at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking???

A totally ridiculous statement. The ONLY way this could possibly make sense would be if your teacher friend is the one using the 40%+ students himself...This is obviously bullshit, as is the statement from your teacher friend

Look, a very well educated and well informed THAI teacher who has been involved with a number of universities in Chiang Mai for nearly 10 years on a full time basis estimates that 40% are hooking. So maybe its 30%. Maybe its 50%. I found this a bit surprising myself until I asked my Thai friends what they thought and they guessed in the 50% range.

Why do you find this so hard to believe? If it was said of CMU or Mahidol, okay, its obviously bullshit, but Payap and a number of other uni's across the whole country are a different story. Are you in denial? Why do I get the feeling that you either teach at Payap or have a GF who attends?

Look, I taught full time in Thai schools for 16 years, mostly in universities, including CMU and Payap. I am no more an authority on percentages of student prostitutes than your friend... As I said, there is ONLY one way for your friend to know ABSOLUTELY.

Some bullshit is easy to see if your eyes are open....And just because a Thai person has an opinion doesn't mean they have any more of a clue than you. Tons of bullshit flies around among people who don't a clue, but still have an opinion

Oh, apologies for the crack about thinking with your penis. I'm sure it didn't help you to see things my way, and I would like you to 'get it'...

I agree that no one can know absolutely. (By the way, the teacher in question is a woman.) However, when it comes to the opinion of a farang who, admittedly has many years of teaching experience and a Thai who also has many years of teaching experience, I will put all my money on the Thai. Especially when I consider the fact that all my Thai friends who went through the local uni's within the past few years all put the estimate in the 50% range.

No matter how many years you stay here. No matter how well you perfect that accent and no matter how Thai you think you have become, you are always on the outside and the Thais will always have a more accurate guage as to what is going on. But that's just my opinion. P1P close the thread so I can have final say

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