Majority of Scots support independence from UK - YouGov poll

[RayC]

11 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that the inability of the opposition parties in Scotland to present credible alternatives to the SNP diminishes any 'validation' that the SNP may infer from their share of the votes?

You have misunderstood me. I am not saying that at all.

 

11 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

David Cameron gave us Brexit on the back of the tories winning 37% of the vote in the 2015 election. If the SNP, as predicted, take more than half the votes in the Holyrood election next year, you still think they have to jump through further, as yet unspecified, hoops to secure a mandate?

Brexit is validated by the result of the 2016 referendum, not by Cameron's 2015 victory.

 

11 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

But it is not the SNP demanding anything for the SNP - if they win an election with a manifesto pledge to enact a policy, it is their duty to follow up that promise with an attempt to deliver - because that is what the voters desired. Therefore, as long as they keep winning elections, they must keep pursuing the promises they made to the electorate. 

I agree.

 

You have not directly addressed my previous points.  I'll repeat them here:

 

Alex Salmond - presumably speaking for the SNP? - stated that the 2014 referendum was a 'once in a generation' event. I assume that we can both agree that a generation would be at least 20 years? However, Brexit - which Scottish voters opposed - effectively 'nulls and voids' the 2014 referendum result. If one accepts this line of agreement, then surely any new referendum must link independence with membership of the EU? i.e if you vote for independence you are de facto also voting for Scottish  membership of the EU. If not, what is the reason for not adhering to the result of the 2014 referendum?

 

A second related question, if a second referendum returned a 'stay' result - and assuming there are 'no significant and material changes in circumstances' - how long does this result remain valid?

[Rookiescot]

9 minutes ago, RayC said:

You have misunderstood me. I am not saying that at all.

 

Brexit is validated by the result of the 2016 referendum, not by Cameron's 2015 victory.

 

I agree.

 

You have not directly addressed my previous points.  I'll repeat them here:

 

Alex Salmond - presumably speaking for the SNP? - stated that the 2014 referendum was a 'once in a generation' event. I assume that we can both agree that a generation would be at least 20 years? However, Brexit - which Scottish voters opposed - effectively 'nulls and voids' the 2014 referendum result. If one accepts this line of agreement, then surely any new referendum must link independence with membership of the EU? i.e if you vote for independence you are de facto also voting for Scottish  membership of the EU. If not, what is the reason for not adhering to the result of the 2014 referendum?

 

A second related question, if a second referendum returned a 'stay' result - and assuming there are 'no significant and material changes in circumstances' - how long does this result remain valid?

If I may interject here given you were replying to RR.

Politicians say throw away lines all the time. Salmonds "Once in a generation" statement was just that. No different from Johnson saying "I would rather be dead in a ditch than ask for an extension (to Brexit)" and then going ahead and asking for one.

Membership of the EU will of course be a matter for after we are independent. I believe the country should be asked if they want to rejoin the EU after negotiations with the EU are complete. Give the public a vote on whether the terms and conditions of rejoining the EU are acceptable. I strongly suspect it will be but the country should be asked.

I also think another result for staying in the union would kill off calls for independence for a long time. If you cant get what you want on the second time of asking then you pretty much need to stop.

[evadgib]

10 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

If I may interject here given you were replying to RR.

Politicians say throw away lines all the time. Salmonds "Once in a generation" statement was just that. No different from Johnson saying "I would rather be dead in a ditch than ask for an extension (to Brexit)" and then going ahead and asking for one.

Membership of the EU will of course be a matter for after we are independent. I believe the country should be asked if they want to rejoin the EU after negotiations with the EU are complete. Give the public a vote on whether the terms and conditions of rejoining the EU are acceptable. I strongly suspect it will be but the country should be asked.

I also think another result for staying in the union would kill off calls for independence for a long time. If you cant get what you want on the second time of asking then you pretty much need to stop.

- Salmonds 'once in a generation' would have been set in stone had he won, &

- Boris did not ask for an extn & flatly refused to sign the treacherous request sent against his will by weasel & Co.

HTH

Edited August 20, 2020 by evadgib

[Rookiescot]

59 minutes ago, evadgib said:

- Salmonds 'once in a generation' would have been set in stone had he won, &

- Boris did not ask for an extn & flatly refused to sign the treacherous request sent against his will by weasel & Co.

HTH

Well if Johnson didnt send the letter asking for an extension then who did?

Who is actually running this government if its not him?

[JonnyF]

11 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

I also think another result for staying in the union would kill off calls for independence for a long time. If you cant get what you want on the second time of asking then you pretty much need to stop.

No chance. The Nationalists would find a reason for a third vote within hours of losing the second one. They want to keep going until they win one. Then THAT vote will be the final vote.

 

It's exactly the same MO as the people wanting a "people's vote" on Brexit, which was simply coded language for a second chance to win since they lost the first one.

 

Fortunately Democracy won out on Brexit and let's hope it does the same on Scottish Independence since the Scots themselves voted to remain in the UK. The vocal minority should not be able to over-ride the majority based on a few dodgy opinion polls of a couple of thousand people.

[evadgib]

38 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Well if Johnson didnt send the letter asking for an extension then who did?

Who is actually running this government if its not him?

Covered extensively on this website in real time.

[vogie]

"if the SNP doesn't hate the English, why do many of its supporters behave as if they do?"

The problem with nationalism is that it needs a bogeyman to hate and lo and behold they have that in Westminster/English. The 20th century has had enough nationalism to last us a lifetime, NSDAP being the the worst of them all. The problem being that the SNP have spread so many lies that the gullable believe them and the intelligentia probably don't believe the lies but will sacrifice all for a suicide separation, and despite whatever anybody says there is very little difference between a Scot and anyone else from the UK, we have all interbred for hundreds of years anyway

Edited August 20, 2020 by vogie

[Rookiescot]

16 minutes ago, vogie said:

"if the SNP doesn't hate the English, why do many of its supporters behave as if they do?"

The problem with nationalism is that it needs a bogeyman to hate and lo and behold they have that in Westminster/English. The 20th century has had enough nationalism to last us a lifetime, NSDAP being the the worst of them all. The problem being that the SNP have spread so many lies that the gullable believe them and the intelligentia probably don't believe the lies but will sacrifice all for a suicide separation, and despite whatever anybody says there is very little difference between a Scot and anyone else from the UK, we have all interbred for hundreds of years anyway

Still pushing this lie Vogie.

The only gullible people around are the British Nationalists and Unionists who push this utter nonsense about the Scots hating the English.

Believe me. This is not about the English or England. Its about Westminster and the government. 

[Rookiescot]

22 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Covered extensively on this website in real time.

Again another non answer. Did Johnson send a letter to the EU asking for a Brexit extension. Yes or No?

[RuamRudy]

34 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

No chance. The Nationalists would find a reason for a third vote within hours of losing the second one. They want to keep going until they win one. Then THAT vote will be the final vote.

 

It's exactly the same MO as the people wanting a "people's vote" on Brexit, which was simply coded language for a second chance to win since they lost the first one.

 

Fortunately Democracy won out on Brexit and let's hope it does the same on Scottish Independence since the Scots themselves voted to remain in the UK. The vocal minority should not be able to over-ride the majority based on a few dodgy opinion polls of a couple of thousand people.

Not one but TWO polls yesterday - the first with with support for independence at 54%, the second at 55%. I think that is the 6th or 7th successive poll which puts independence at 50% or above. Your consistent attempts to paint independence as a minority pursuit are, quite frankly, somewhat desperate; the bleating cries of a dying union frantically trying to rally the troops, or is it an attempt to convince yourself that your precious union is not in it final moments (a couple of centuries too late, but nothing we can do about that now)? 

 

Support for the union is well and truly in the minority. Unionists are a dying breed, and every day, more and more people are waking up to the realisation that there is a better way for our country to be managed, and that it is within our grasp. 

 

So please, repeat after me, 'The union is supported by only a dwindling minority of Scots'.

[evadgib]

7 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Again another non answer. Did Johnson send a letter to the EU asking for a Brexit extension. Yes or No?

No.

Edited August 20, 2020 by evadgib

[RuamRudy]

26 minutes ago, vogie said:

"if the SNP doesn't hate the English, why do many of its supporters behave as if they do?"

The problem with nationalism is that it needs a bogeyman to hate and lo and behold they have that in Westminster/English. The 20th century has had enough nationalism to last us a lifetime, NSDAP being the the worst of them all. The problem being that the SNP have spread so many lies that the gullable believe them and the intelligentia probably don't believe the lies but will sacrifice all for a suicide separation, and despite whatever anybody says there is very little difference between a Scot and anyone else from the UK, we have all interbred for hundreds of years anyway

I should cut and paste this question because I have written so many versions of it:

 

Please present credible evidence that the SNP hates the English.

 

I can present credible evidence that Brexit is strongly driven by racism and xenophobia in England, but I would not be so arrogant or offensive as to suggest that Brexit was based upon racism, yet you push this offensive line so regularly, Vogie, and you fail to back it up every single time you are challenged to do so, and still you come back with it. 

 

While we are at it (and I must admit, I have been laughing at Johnson's number 1 fan accusing the SNP of telling lies - good god, irony isn't your strong suit, is it?) please explain the SNP lies. 

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Still pushing this lie Vogie.

The only gullible people around are the British Nationalists and Unionists who push this utter nonsense about the Scots hating the English.

Believe me. This is not about the English or England. Its about Westminster and the government. 

There are some in England who seem to think that everything revolves around them. Narcissism is such an unpleasant trait. 

[RuamRudy]

Better days ahead.

 

[evadgib]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Better days ahead.

There's something a lot better than that brewing ????

Edited August 20, 2020 by evadgib

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I should cut and paste this question because I have written so many versions of it:

 

Please present credible evidence that the SNP hates the English.

 

I can present credible evidence that Brexit is strongly driven by racism and xenophobia in England, but I would not be so arrogant or offensive as to suggest that Brexit was based upon racism, yet you push this offensive line so regularly, Vogie, and you fail to back it up every single time you are challenged to do so, and still you come back with it. 

 

While we are at it (and I must admit, I have been laughing at Johnson's number 1 fan accusing the SNP of telling lies - good god, irony isn't your strong suit, is it?) please explain the SNP lies. 

 

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I should cut and paste this question because I have written so many versions of it:

 

Please present credible evidence that the SNP hates the English.

 

I can present credible evidence that Brexit is strongly driven by racism and xenophobia in England, but I would not be so arrogant or offensive as to suggest that Brexit was based upon racism, yet you push this offensive line so regularly, Vogie, and you fail to back it up every single time you are challenged to do so, and still you come back with it. 

 

While we are at it (and I must admit, I have been laughing at Johnson's number 1 fan accusing the SNP of telling lies - good god, irony isn't your strong suit, is it?) please explain the SNP lies. 

The irony here is that if the SNP had been successful in their quest for 'freedom' and had won the leave vote in 2014 that they would have had to leave the EU, so in actual fact it was the Scots Nats that voted to leave the EU and you were warned at the time that there also may be an EU referendum at a later stage, but don't let the truth get in the way.

 

• EU Rebate – the Scottish Government propose to share the UK’s EU rebate but that is impossible. If Scotland leaves the UK, the UK’s rebate will be recalculated and there will be no Scottish share left. Indeed, like other Member States, an independent Scotland would need to help fund the UK’s rebate were it to join the EU.

• Scotland’s economic growth in recent decades – the Scottish Government claims that Scotland’s economy has grown more slowly than other comparable independent European countries in recent decades were undermined by the admission they had airbrushed 2008 out of their analysis. They said the financial crisis of 2008 was too volatile and should not be included, but this is exactly the volatility that a smaller Scottish economy would be even more exposed to under independence.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/white-paper-unravelling/twelve-of-the-faults-in-the-scottish-governments-independence-white-paper

 

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, evadgib said:

There's something a lot better than that brewing ????

The Alec Salmond enquiry is turning into the Nicola Sturgeon Trial.

[RuamRudy]

12 hours ago, RayC said:

You have misunderstood me. I am not saying that at all.

Then I am not sure I understood your point. 

 

13 hours ago, RayC said:

Brexit is validated by the result of the 2016 referendum, not by Cameron's 2015 victory.

 

But Cameron initiated the Brexit vote with the support of barely 1/3 of the country. The SNP got 45% of the vote at the last GE and are predicted to get more than 50% at the Holyrood election. If 36% is good enough to bring us Brexit, 50%+ is surely enough to secure an even more definitive referendum?

 

13 hours ago, RayC said:

You have not directly addressed my previous points.  I'll repeat them here:

 

Alex Salmond - presumably speaking for the SNP? - stated that the 2014 referendum was a 'once in a generation' event. I assume that we can both agree that a generation would be at least 20 years? However, Brexit - which Scottish voters opposed - effectively 'nulls and voids' the 2014 referendum result. If one accepts this line of agreement, then surely any new referendum must link independence with membership of the EU? i.e if you vote for independence you are de facto also voting for Scottish  membership of the EU. If not, what is the reason for not adhering to the result of the 2014 referendum?

 

A second related question, if a second referendum returned a 'stay' result - and assuming there are 'no significant and material changes in circumstances' - how long does this result remain valid?

Once in a generation - it really smacks of desperation when the only justification people can trot out to defend the union is to rely upon an off the cuff remark that has no legal basis in the procedure. 

 

But regardless, democracy is surely the deliverable of a popular mandate? The precursor is irrelevant - if the people want it, they should get it. There is no need to conflate with brexit - while related in terms of one fueling the other, they are very separate matters. 

 

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

The irony here is that if the SNP had been successful in their quest for 'freedom' and had won the leave vote in 2014 that they would have had to leave the EU, so in actual fact it was the Scots Nats that voted to leave the EU and you were warned at the time that there also may be an EU referendum at a later stage, but don't let the truth get in the way.

 

• EU Rebate – the Scottish Government propose to share the UK’s EU rebate but that is impossible. If Scotland leaves the UK, the UK’s rebate will be recalculated and there will be no Scottish share left. Indeed, like other Member States, an independent Scotland would need to help fund the UK’s rebate were it to join the EU.

• Scotland’s economic growth in recent decades – the Scottish Government claims that Scotland’s economy has grown more slowly than other comparable independent European countries in recent decades were undermined by the admission they had airbrushed 2008 out of their analysis. They said the financial crisis of 2008 was too volatile and should not be included, but this is exactly the volatility that a smaller Scottish economy would be even more exposed to under independence.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/white-paper-unravelling/twelve-of-the-faults-in-the-scottish-governments-independence-white-paper

 

Yes, but what about your statement that the SNP hates the English? Can we stick to that, please?

[Neeranam]

Let's have another referendum, the last one was rigged by Westminster and the English media. 

We need Mel Gibson or that guy from Outlander to campaign for us. 

[RuamRudy]

The panic is rising amongst the unionist. Having drafted in George Galloway to lead their efforts (as if that doesn't smack of desperation itself) he is now rallying such troops as Andrew Neil to try and block non Scots born people from voting in a referendum - and yet people still claim it is independence supporters who are xenophobic?

 

 

[RuamRudy]

English Scots for Yes chief joins race to win Jackie Baillie's seat for SNP

 

"THE co-founder of the national campaign group for English people in Scotland who want independence, English Scots for Yes, has announced his intention to stand to be selected by the SNP to be its candidate to take on Jackie Baillie next year.

 

Math Campbell-Sturgess, who is convener of the SNP’s Lomond North branch, is a former councillor in Inverclyde and has lived in the Scottish Labour deputy’s Dumbarton constituency since 2016."

[vogie]

24 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Yes, but what about your statement that the SNP hates the English? Can we stick to that, please?

So are we agreeing on the rest of my post that the SNP tell porkies?

But let's look at the evidence, the clues are there, as Lloyd Grossman once said. When you have painty faced Nats with banners stating "England out of Scotland and you also have your own Nats vigilantes managing our shared border trying to stop the English from entering the sacred country of Nicoslavia. We can go on what we see on the media of these tribal saltire faced decrying our government down, the filth they write on Tory offices and of course we have our very own posters on here who find it impossible to write a post without insulting the government, but if someone should call Mrs Sturgeon 'wee cranky' there is all let loose. One of the best Prime Ministers of our time was referred to the other day as the "wicked witch" and the hatred goes on.

As I said Nationalists need a bogeyman.

Edited August 20, 2020 by vogie

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The panic is rising amongst the unionist. Having drafted in George Galloway to lead their efforts (as if that doesn't smack of desperation itself) he is now rallying such troops as Andrew Neil to try and block non Scots born people from voting in a referendum - and yet people still claim it is independence supporters who are xenophobic?

Worried much.????????????

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

So are we agreeing on the rest of my post that the SNP tell porkies?

But let's look at the evidence, the clues are there, as Lloyd Grossman once said. When you have painty faced Nats with banners stating "England out of Scotland and you also have your own Nats vigilantes managing our shared border trying to stop the English from entering the sacred country of Nicoslavia. We can go on what we see on the media of these tribal saltire faced decrying our government down, the filth they write on Tory offices and of course we have our very own posters on here who find it impossible to write a post without insulting the government, but if someone should call Mrs Sturgeon 'wee cranky' there is all let loose. One of the best Prime Ministers of our time was referred to the other day as the "wicked witch" and the hatred goes on.

As I said Nationalists need a bogeyman.

Ok, so the knuckle dragging racists of the EDL represent everything that is Brexit? Is that what you are saying? Well, if the cap fits...

 

I have told you on several occassions how Sean Clarkson is not a member of the SNP and is reviled by most independence supporter but you choose to ignore that fact and continue to follow the Trump approach which is to double down and repeat your lie in the hope it gains traction. 

 

I decry the Nasty Party every day and will continue to do. But good, decent honourable people are not restricted to the independence movement - there are Labour and LD voters, I am sure, who despise the greed and corruption of the Tories as much as I do. So when you see someone attach the Tories, don't automatically think they are the SNP - just assume that they know right from wrong, humanity from greed and honesty from corruption.

[vogie]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Ok, so the knuckle dragging racists of the EDL represent everything that is Brexit? Is that what you are saying? Well, if the cap fits...

 

I have told you on several occassions how Sean Clarkson is not a member of the SNP and is reviled by most independence supporter but you choose to ignore that fact and continue to follow the Trump approach which is to double down and repeat your lie in the hope it gains traction. 

 

I decry the Nasty Party every day and will continue to do. But good, decent honourable people are not restricted to the independence movement - there are Labour and LD voters, I am sure, who despise the greed and corruption of the Tories as much as I do. So when you see someone attach the Tories, don't automatically think they are the SNP - just assume that they know right from wrong, humanity from greed and honesty from corruption.

Ok, so the knuckle dragging racists of the EDL represent everything that is Brexit? Is that what you are saying? Well, if the cap fits...

 

I am not saying that at all, you have put those words into my mouth and it is a slick attempt at deflection, this topic has nothing to do with the EDL, we are talking about the SNP. But since we're here, I have numurous photos of the painty faced followers of Sturgeons blue brigade setting fire to our Union Flag, can you oblige and show me any English lighting the Saltire?

[Brigand]

Galloway has it right when he says all Scottish people, whether in Scotland or not, should have a vote as many plan in the future to return and believe they should have input into it. People that live abroad as expats have the right to vote in elections by post, so why shouldn't that be the case for this one too? ... especially when a Malaysian student on a 5 year visa studying in Scotland gets a vote in the independence referendum like last time and Scots outside Scotland didn't. That, I'm afraid, is total nonsense and SNP BS ... along with every idiotic 16 year-old voting too. 

[evadgib]

42 minutes ago, Brigand said:

Galloway has it right when he says all Scottish people, whether in Scotland or not, should have a vote as many plan in the future to return and believe they should have input into it. People that live abroad as expats have the right to vote in elections by post, so why shouldn't that be the case for this one too? ... especially when a Malaysian student on a 5 year visa studying in Scotland gets a vote in the independence referendum like last time and Scots outside Scotland didn't. That, I'm afraid, is total nonsense and SNP BS ... along with every idiotic 16 year-old voting too. 

Brits abroad currently lose that right after 15 years.

Edited August 20, 2020 by evadgib

[sanuk711]

If you want to Pick Nicola Ferguson Sturgeon as your anointed leader, I would try to download the BBC program from a few nights ago--- "The Trial of Alex Salmond." She certainly tried to do a number on him--just in case he ever thought about coming back. From the one compliant, it would seem that 10 women suddenly remembered they had been assaulted , all knew each other and Ms Sturgeon--so 14 charges.

In an age where it is so difficult to prosecute a sex crime without 3rd party collaboration,  where so many crimes do not come to trial. One of the ridicule's charges was that he placed his hand on a woman's knee for the duration of the car ride**. -Sexual misconduct.

Half way through the trial Ms Sturgeon started a Go Fund me page for the women!-- I mean what was that about? when they had nothing to pay as the prosecution cost them nothing. Anyway £87,000 to them. None of the women were named or shown, they gave evidence behind a screen--Alex Salmond, he's finished.

 

Daily Mail-**Woman C said her husband was in the front seat next to Mr Salmond's driver while she sat next to Mr Salmond in the back. She said Mr Salmond put his hand on her leg, above her knee. She said she had been "embarrassed" by it and hoped he would move his hand - but claimed he had instead left it on her leg until they arrived at their destination.

 

 

BBC--17 August--In March 2020, Scotland’s former first minister Alex Salmond emerges from the High Court in Edinburgh, cleared of 14 charges of sexual misconduct. The verdict concludes one of the most dramatic trials Britain has ever seen. Throughout the film, BBC looks back at Alex Salmond’s political career and examines the growing rift between him and his former protege, Nicola Sturgeon. As Salmond prepares to take the stand, these divisions come to the fore, and some of his allies allege that there is a conspiracy at the heart of the Scottish government to stop Salmond returning to politics.

[Nigel Garvie]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

snip 

 

I decry the Nasty Party every day and will continue to do. But good, decent honourable people are not restricted to the independence movement - there are Labour and LD voters, I am sure, who despise the greed and corruption of the Tories as much as I do. So when you see someone attach the Tories, don't automatically think they are the SNP - just assume that they know right from wrong, humanity from greed and honesty from corruption.

If we don't like Tories why should we be shy about saying so. It is not intended as a personal offence to those who do, who can readily talk about Labour, SNP, Libs, and Greens in highly uncharitable terms, if they want too. They often do.

 

The problem with Boris, and Trump, and a number of other similar national leaders is this.

They have Authority,   without Humility, Humanity, Honesty, or Decency.