Majority of Scots support independence from UK - YouGov poll

[RuamRudy]

34 minutes ago, vogie said:

The graph here shows 10 yearish of the nationalists wanting to seperate from "Engerlund" in 10 years it is still only averaging 52% in favour of seperating from "Engerlund". And it is not beyond the realms of possibility that nationalists shouting from the rooftops 'we want away fay "Engerlund" but when push comes to shove and they are faced with the question in the actual polling booth, they may say 'well at least we know where we are with the Engerlunders, I'm staying.

Personally,, I would be careful with anything from Steve Sayers - a man notorious for upskirting. 

That aside, I would love to know how he can prepare a chart with a 12-month moving average when he has a non-linear x-axis. 

[shackleton]

If that's what the people of Scotland want let them have it

Will have to change the  name on future maps 

No United Kingdom anymore plus why are they still using Great Britain ?

[Caldera]

I think the Scottish government should wait for a little longer to let the economic downturn fester and the Brexit fully materialize. I predict they will be able to secure a much larger majority for independence then, maybe in the 60-70% range.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, shackleton said:

If that's what the people of Scotland want let them have it

Will have to change the  name on future maps 

No United Kingdom anymore plus why are they still using Great Britain ?

Great Britain us a geographic rather than geopolitical term used to describe the land mass of Scotland, Wales and England only. It doesn't even include the Isle of Man. 

[sanuk711]

14 hours ago, Susco said:

Never understood why Scotland was  part of the UK....

No Susco most people Don't (especially outside of Britain) they think its all down to Mel Gibson type movies and the English invading & taking over. When in fact Scotland went nearly bankrupt with a mad scheme to to make a dry Panama canal. Nearly everyone in Scotland put money into what is now called The Darien scheme. Also Scotland sort to lend money from European banks. The idea was to unload ships on one side transport the goods across land to waiting ships the other side.

There was just a minor thing that the Scots overlooked ......when attempting this sort of thing, its usual to get agreement from whoever owns the land first.  The Spanish

It was a disaster, with many deaths & the English banks lending against their losses, due to its devastating effects on the Scottish economy. It has often been cited as one of the key reasons for the Union between Scotland and England in 1707.

[DefaultName]

As a proud Scot, I'd love to see an Independent Scotland.

As a sensible man, the money to have an independent Scotland just isn't there.  In the 60's and 70's, when the North Sea Oil was booming, the opportunity was there to place a tithe on it, even a small percentage could have funded Scotland for centuries.  But it didn't happen, the main money flowed straight through Scotland, some was syphoned off in Westminster and the City, but the vast majority of the profits went to huge international companies who promptly hid it in tax havens.  The US got it's cut of course, but Scotland, no.

 

It's all "we'll be UK when we rejoin the EU" - which is breaking up and doesn't need another "taker" country.

Or, "we can tax this and that" - well, yes, but those taxed can them move as much of their assets/business out of Scotland as possible.  Than where are you?

 

A very fine dream, but only a dream hopefully.  I do not want to see the Scotland that would result.

[RuamRudy]

30 minutes ago, sanuk711 said:

No Susco most people Don't (especially outside of Britain) they think its all down to Mel Gibson type movies and the English invading & taking over. When in fact Scotland went nearly bankrupt with a mad scheme to to make a dry Panama canal. Nearly everyone in Scotland put money into what is now called The Darien scheme. Also Scotland sort to lend money from European banks. The idea was to unload ships on one side transport the goods across land to waiting ships the other side.

There was just a minor thing that the Scots overlooked ......when attempting this sort of thing, its usual to get agreement from whoever owns the land first.  The Spanish

It was a disaster, with many deaths & the English banks lending against their losses, due to its devastating effects on the Scottish economy. It has often been cited as one of the key reasons for the Union between Scotland and England in 1707.

That's some historical revisionism going on there, my friend. I am not sure where you read that but I would go back and check again - historically it is as accurate as Braveheart itself. 

 

Scotland in the 17th century was a feudal economy. The notion that 'nearly everyone' had invested in the Darien scheme is as ridiculous as the suggestion that a country without a central bank (something that was lacking in Scotland at the time) could actually go bankrupt. 

 

It may often be cited as one of the key reasons for the Union between Scotland and England, but that doesn't make it actually correct - it just highlights how little the people who cite it actually understand the topic about which they are expounding. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by RuamRudy

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, DefaultName said:

As a proud Scot, I'd love to see an Independent Scotland.

As a sensible man, the money to have an independent Scotland just isn't there.  In the 60's and 70's, when the North Sea Oil was booming, the opportunity was there to place a tithe on it, even a small percentage could have funded Scotland for centuries.  But it didn't happen, the main money flowed straight through Scotland, some was syphoned off in Westminster and the City, but the vast majority of the profits went to huge international companies who promptly hid it in tax havens.  The US got it's cut of course, but Scotland, no.

 

It's all "we'll be UK when we rejoin the EU" - which is breaking up and doesn't need another "taker" country.

Or, "we can tax this and that" - well, yes, but those taxed can them move as much of their assets/business out of Scotland as possible.  Than where are you?

 

A very fine dream, but only a dream hopefully.  I do not want to see the Scotland that would result.

Why a dream? What is it about Scotland that makes it uniquely incapable of managing its own affairs?

Scotland isn't the poor little backwater, bereft of resources that you seem to think it is.

 

[peterpop]

I am saddened to say this but I am fed up to the back teeth of listening to whining Scots.  I have two children borne and bred in Scotland.  But for me close the border and tell them to .............off.  Good riddance.

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Clearly you didn't understand the physical geography or you wouldn't have written something as utterly nonsensical as:

But now I am intrigued. Where will this Wales/Scotland border checkpoints be physically located? 

You clearly don't understand the difference between a physical land border and a customs border. I've tried explaining it to you twice already so this will be my final attempt. I guess you missed the months of talks about the proposed border down the middle of the Irish sea to protect the EU single market? As far as I'm aware, there is no land border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK either. So I guess during the talks of the Irish sea border nobody in those discussions checked your little map? ???? Maybe this will jog your memory?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/16/the-irish-sea-border-what-does-it-mean-for-businesses-brexit

 

If you wish to think that the EU will allow goods to flow freely between Wales and Scotland (i.e. no customs border) in the event Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU then I'll Ieave you alone with your unicorns (and your BraveHeart VHS cassette).????

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

You clearly don't understand the difference between a physical land border and a customs border. I've tried explaining it to you twice already so this will be my final attempt. I guess you missed the months of talks about the proposed border down the middle of the Irish sea to protect the EU single market? As far as I'm aware, there is no land border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK either. So I guess during the talks of the Irish sea border nobody in those discussions checked your little map? ???? Maybe this will jog your memory?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/16/the-irish-sea-border-what-does-it-mean-for-businesses-brexit

 

If you wish to think that the EU will allow goods to flow freely between Wales and Scotland (i.e. no customs border) in the event Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU then I'll Ieave you alone with your unicorns (and your BraveHeart VHS cassette).????

You are aware, I presume (although presumption has led to many an error in the past), that Wales is not an independent country? Why, then, would Scotland have a customs checkpoint specifically dedicated to any particular region of rUK rather than simply an rUK - Scotland customs checkpoint? Will we have a Yorkshire - Scottish customs border too?

[sanuk711]

25 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

That's some historical revisionism going on there, my friend. I am not sure where you read that but I would go back and check again - historically it is as accurate as Braveheart itself. 

You may be right RuamRudy & Wikipedia & Google etc etc may be completely wrong......

 

They formed a company called company of Scotland  and took 20% of all the money circulating in Scotland, its failure left the entire Lowlands in substantial financial ruin--give that some thought Ruamrudy---20% of all the money circulating in Scotland--no country could take a hit like that and survive ---but you can go with the Mel Gibson version if you wish.

 

Wikipedia

The Darien scheme was an unsuccessful attempt, backed largely by investors of the Kingdom of Scotland, to gain wealth and influence by establishing New Caledonia, a colony on the Isthmus of Panama, in the late 1690s. To be located on the Gulf of Darién, the plan was for the colony to establish and manage an overland route to connect the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. From its contemporary time to the present day, claims have been made that the undertaking was beset by poor planning and provisioning, divided leadership, a lack of demand for trade goods as the result of an English trade blockade,^[1] devastating epidemics of disease, successful collaboration between the English East India Company and the English government to frustrate it,^[1] and a failure to anticipate the Spanish Empire's military response. It was finally abandoned in March 1700 after a siege by Spanish forces, which also blockaded the harbour.^[2]

As the Company of Scotland was backed by approximately 20% of all the money circulating in Scotland, its failure left the entire Lowlands in substantial financial ruin and was an important factor in weakening their resistance to the Act of Union (completed in 1707). The land where the Darien colony was built, in the modern province of Guna Yala, is virtually uninhabited today.

 

or possibly you were reading this sort of track--

The Darien Scheme and Anglophobia in Scotland

The Scottish pamphlets which are in favour of the scheme largely advertise it as an important element in Scotland’s continued survival as an independent state. After its failure, pamphleteers were quick to print Anglophobic tracts claiming an English plot to destroy Scotland’s independence....Wikipedia

Edited August 14, 2020 by sanuk711

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, sanuk711 said:

You may be right RuamRudy & Wikipedia & Google etc etc may be completely wrong......

 

They formed a company called company of Scotland  and took 20% of all the money circulating in Scotland, its failure left the entire Lowlands in substantial financial ruin--give that some though Ruamrudy---20% of all the money circulating in Scotland--no country could take a hit like that and survive ---but you can go with the Mel Gibson version if you wish.

 

Wikipedia

The Darien scheme was an unsuccessful attempt, backed largely by investors of the Kingdom of Scotland, to gain wealth and influence by establishing New Caledonia, a colony on the Isthmus of Panama, in the late 1690s. To be located on the Gulf of Darién, the plan was for the colony to establish and manage an overland route to connect the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. From its contemporary time to the present day, claims have been made that the undertaking was beset by poor planning and provisioning, divided leadership, a lack of demand for trade goods as the result of an English trade blockade,^[1] devastating epidemics of disease, successful collaboration between the English East India Company and the English government to frustrate it,^[1] and a failure to anticipate the Spanish Empire's military response. It was finally abandoned in March 1700 after a siege by Spanish forces, which also blockaded the harbour.^[2]

As the Company of Scotland was backed by approximately 20% of all the money circulating in Scotland, its failure left the entire Lowlands in substantial financial ruin and was an important factor in weakening their resistance to the Act of Union (completed in 1707). The land where the Darien colony was built, in the modern province of Guna Yala, is virtually uninhabited today.

 

or possibly you were reading this sort of track--

The Darien Scheme and Anglophobia in Scotland

The Scottish pamphlets which are in favour of the scheme largely advertise it as an important element in Scotland’s continued survival as an independent state. After its failure, pamphleteers were quick to print Anglophobic tracts claiming an English plot to destroy Scotland’s independence....Wikipedia

I think the key term in the above is 'circulating money'. The vast majority of people in Scotland in 1690 had no actual money; they never handled it and rarely had use for it. Its sudden loss to them would be relatively immaterial because the economy within which they lived had no need for it. 

 

Who it did impact, however, were a small number of very wealthy individuals who, unfortunately, held power by virtue of their status. These men were personally on the verge of ruination because of the Darien scheme, but not the country itself. But because they had the parliament in their pocket, they sold out to save their own hides.

 

Ultimately, however, the events of 300 years ago bear no relevance whatsoever to today. The fact that they are resurrected with such tiresome regularity do, however, highlight just how empty the 'defence of the union' armoury is when the best reason for the status quo is that 300 years ago some Scots got themselves in a financial pickle so best stay as we are.

[Nigel Garvie]

5 hours ago, DoctorG said:

Leave if you want to. I don't care, just stop bleating about it.

 

16 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

snip

Personally I am bored to death with Scotland and their independence and the posters on here who hijack every thread, at every opportunity.

It appears that some people haven't noticed that the thread is about Scotland, if it is a topic they are not interested in why contribute. 

Maybe I should post on every topic I find on TV "I'm not interested/bored/whatever with this topic", or "Stop bleating about this topic". You know,  just to make my mark!!

[vogie]

41 minutes ago, peterpop said:

I am saddened to say this but I am fed up to the back teeth of listening to whining Scots.  I have two children borne and bred in Scotland.  But for me close the border and tell them to .............off.  Good riddance.

I hear what you are saying, but sadly it is not the Scots, but the Nationalists that are stoking the fire.

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

I hear what you are saying, but sadly it is not the Scots, but the Nationalists that are stoking the fire.

And who are the nationalists if not Scots?

[Nigel Garvie]

27 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

snip

Who it did impact, however, were a small number of very wealthy individuals who, unfortunately, held power by virtue of their status. These men were personally on the verge of ruination because of the Darien scheme, but not the country itself. But because they had the parliament in their pocket, they sold out to save their own hides.

I woke up early in a misty (Haar) East of Scotland, and followed this interesting thread with many excellent, and sometimes eloquent contributions. 

 

As you say above they sold out. The often mistaken song "Parcel of rogues" refers to these Scots men, not the English at all.

 

"The Scots deserve no pity, if they voluntarily surrender their united and separate interests to the mercy of an united Parliament, where the English have so vast a majority…their 45 Scots members may dance round to all eternity, in this trap of their own making."

 

This is a quote from Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun (A village that is a pleasant cycle away for me) at the time of the Act of Union. He was so disgusted by the betrayal of his country by his fellow landowners that he left public life to concentrate on farming. 

 

The idea that the whole independence thing is all about being anti-English, is just silly, and rather childishly self centred of those who think that way. A friendly separation is what we need, with maximum co-operation to our mutual benefit thereafter. 

[bodga]

18 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

the majority of Scots feel that they would be better served looking after their own affairs?

until theres yet another  vote you know  diddly squat

[sanuk711]

59 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Scots got themselves in a financial pickle so best stay as we are.

No I agree--- but it was the subject because I was answering a question.......

17 hours ago, Susco said:

Never understood why Scotland was  part of the UK....

 

To which  your comment to my answer was---Quote-That's some historical revisionism going on there,

------------------------

My opinion on Scotland independence is that the quickest way to get it, is to include the English in the Vote. That's not being disrespectful to the Scots, who for the population size have a rich history of inventions/Discoveries etc. I just think the English population are fed up with the Sturgeon power grab and would say--if you want to go......Please do.

[ruprext]

Maybe a vote in England, Wales

And NI, to see if they want to keep them.

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, ruprext said:

Maybe a vote in England, Wales

And NI, to see if they want to keep them.

Well no, that suggest ownership, as if Scotland is a possession, with its future being for the other nations to decide.

However you are on the right track - more acceptable would be England voting whether to stand on its own two feet for once. 

[mighty]

Bring it on, they will get what they ask for!!

[izod10]

19 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Oh agreed, the die has been cast so there will be no cries of the need for a supermajority or any of those shenanigans played by Labour in '79. 

You Scoth people think the English people hold u back    not damned likely be gone  shut of   bye bye

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, izod10 said:

You Scoth people think the English people hold u back    not damned likely be gone  shut of   bye bye

Westminster holds us back. English people have the same issues, problems and challenges as Scottish people. The difference is that you insist on electing Tories despite the clear and obvious damage they have doing to our countries since long before any of us can remember. We cannot change your mentality but we can choose to insulate ourselves from your voting choices.

[tebee]

20 hours ago, vogie said:

Amazing, in the old days Brexit threads used to be deflected to Scots indy threads, now we have turned a full circle and Scots indy threads are being turned into Brexit threads.????????????????

That's because one is an inevitable consequence of the other 

[vogie]

16 minutes ago, tebee said:

That's because one is an inevitable consequence of the other 

I disagree, the nats wanted separation from the English before the EU referendum and after the referendum they still wanted separation, infact they have wanted separation before you and myself were born, so it can be said without fear of contradiction that Brexit had Sweet Fanny Adams to do with separation.

Edited August 14, 2020 by vogie
Spelling

[sanuk711]

[dunroaming]

20 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

You know, it doesn't have to be acrimonious; we have different aspirations, that's all. Why can you not accept that the majority of Scots feel that they would be better served looking after their own affairs? It is not a rejection of you personally. 

 

Good to see that you already have the flag ready for when we split - hopefully it won't be long until it is flying proudly from every building across England. 

Good post.  I can see nothing wrong with Scottish independence if that is what the majority of people there want.  It certainly wouldn't change my relationship with my Scottish friends.  Any opportunity to get rid of Johnson should be taken!  I only wish we, below the border, had that choice.

[JonnyF]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

I disagree, the nats wanted seperation from the English before the EU referendum and after the referendum they still wanted seperation, infact they have wanted seperation before you and myself were born, so it can be said without fear of contradiction that Brexit had Sweet Fanny Adams to do with seperation.

Correct.

 

Brexit is just an lame excuse to get a second bite of the cherry since their countrymen voted to Remain in the UK when they were asked in 2014. They simply can't accept the result of the Democratic vote. If it wasn't Brexit, they be citing the pandemic or some other 'material change' that warranted another vote.

 

They simply cannot accept that they are a very vocal minority trying to overturn the democratic mandate provided by the silent majority. 

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Correct.

 

Brexit is just an lame excuse to get a second bite of the cherry since their countrymen voted to Remain in the UK when they were asked in 2014. They simply can't accept the result of the Democratic vote. If it wasn't Brexit, they be citing the pandemic or some other 'material change' that warranted another vote.

 

They simply cannot accept that they are a very vocal minority trying to overturn the democratic mandate provided by the silent majority. 

I wouldn't trust the SNP to run a bath never mind their country, I just wonder if they realise that they will not be able to blame Westminster if they ever get separation. Incidentally Westminster is the SNP codeword for The English.????