New CDC report shows 94% of COVID-19 deaths in US had underlying medical conditions

[scammed]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

But it's a whole different matter when some folks start advocating against taking simple and easily accomplished interventions like social distancing

the social distancing comes with a whole lot of economic complications, the shutdown are costing society dearly

to give old folks another couple of years before they croak.

and its not just todays society, the bill is kicked down

to generations that hasnt even been born yet,

and that is downright unethical

[Logosone]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

 

There is no way of telling from this data what percentage of people had other underlying diseases prior to getting COVID which contributed to their death from COVID

 

Someone had mentioned Sweden and we have their statistics,  96% of deaths in Sweden were among the 60-90plus age group, with most by far in the 70 to 90 plus age group. Would you expect it is likely or unlikely that people in these age ranges have underlying illness issues?

[WhateverDude]

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/cdc-did-not-admit-only-6-of-recorded-deaths-from-covid-19/

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

45 minutes ago, scammed said:

the social distancing comes with a whole lot of economic complications, the shutdown are costing society dearly

 

Social distancing is not synonymous with "shutdowns," nor is wearing masks or even a universal mask wear policy.

 

Its perfectly possible in many situations to have social distancing and other precautions while life/business continues... 

 

The notion you have to choose only between public health OR a functioning economy is largely a false choice and oversimplistic argument that virus deniers/let the elderly die folks try to put forward.

 

PS - Thailand's economy isn't suffering because of mask wear policies or social distancing policies. It's suffering because of its dependence on tourism combined with a virtual ban on incoming international arrivals by foreigners. The latter policy could have been handled differently to not so badly impact things here.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[scammed]

13 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Social distancing is not synonymous with "shutdowns," nor is wearing masks or even a universal mask wear policy.

 

Its perfectly possible in many situations to have social distancing and other precautions while life/business continues... 

 

The notion you have to choose only between public health OR a functioning economy is largely a false choice and oversimplistic argument that virus deniers/let the elderly die folks try to put forward.

 

in hindsight, the right thing to do would be to

optionally quarantine retirees and the rest of society carry on business as usual.

in other words, the swedish model but notify elderly about the risk and necessary precautions

Edited September 3, 2020 by scammed

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

7 minutes ago, scammed said:

in hindsight, the right thing to do would be to

optionally quarantine retirees and the rest of society carry on business as usual

 

the problem is... 

1. How do you effectively do that with a sizable portion of the overall population (amount varying by country). Plus I don't know what exactly "optionally quarantine" is supposed to mean...

 

and

 

2. While older people are more likely to have serious health consequences and death risk from CV, they're not the only ones who do... Pre-existing health conditions can get you there also...

 

And the younger folks (from teenage on up) are just as capable of spreading the virus to others around them as anyone else. So if you start spreading the infection around to the entire population, even the entire non-elderly population, without any precautions, the deaths and illnesses are still going to start spiraling.

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[scammed]

10 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

the problem is... 

1. How do you effectively do that with a sizable portion of the overall population (amount varying by country). Plus I don't know what exactly "optionally quarantine" is supposed to mean...

 

and

 

2. While older people are more likely to have serious health consequences and death risk from CV, they're not the only ones who do... Pre-existing health conditions can get you there also...

 

And the younger folks (from teenage on up) are just as capable of spreading the virus to others around them as anyone else. So if you start spreading the infection around to the entire population, even the entire non-elderly population, without any precautions, the deaths and illnesses are still going to start spiraling.

 

you (government) dont actually do much,

you just inform retirees that they are at risk

and give them guidelines how to live if they want to

reduce exposure, no more visits by grand kids,

give a link where to buy a ww1 trench gas mask

for stocking up supplies, link to crossword puzzles, and so on.

the cost for the tax payer is minimal,

there is no downsides at all other then voluntary and optional self imposed isolation

Edited September 3, 2020 by scammed

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, scammed said:

you (government) dont actually do much,

you just inform retirees that they are at risk

and give them guidelines how to live if they want to

reduce exposure, no more visits by grand kids,

give a link where to buy a ww1 trench gas mask

for stocking up supplies, and so on

 

And how are the elderly going to live?  In some residence all by themselves, with no family support system or anyone to help and care for them?  Or are they supposed to live together with family members, but somehow be entirely cut off and isolated from those in the same home?  I think it's far easier said...than actually done.

 

[scammed]

5 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

And how are the elderly going to live?  In some residence all by themselves, with no family support system or anyone to help and care for them?  Or are they supposed to live together with family members, but somehow be entirely cut off and isolated from those in the same home?  I think it's far easier said...than actually done.

 

they can live in isolation or not, its on them to decide

if they feel like another couple of years in isolation

to increase chance of prolonging their life a couple of years

is worth more then having grand kids visiting. nobody except them individuals have all the data to make that informed decision

Edited September 3, 2020 by scammed

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

18 minutes ago, scammed said:

they can live in isolation or not, its on them to decide

if they feel like another couple of years in isolation

to increase chance of prolonging their life a couple of years

is worth more then having grand kids visiting. nobody except them individuals have all the data to make that informed decision

 

Rather than leaving it to society's most/more vulnerable to find a way on their own, my view is, those of us around them ought to take the necessary precautions to ensure as best as possible that WE protect them... not abandon them, while continuing to offer familial support.

 

To me, your notion is kind of like saying to a deer being chased by a lion, "Well, good luck, you're on your own. Hope you can figure out how to run faster to get away...."  The result, simply, is going to be a dead deer.

[scammed]

13 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Rather than leaving it to society's most/more vulnerable to find a way on their own, my view is, those of us around them ought to take the necessary precautions to ensure as best as possible that WE protect them... not abandon them, while continuing to offer familial support.

 

To me, your notion is kind of like saying to a deer being chased by a lion, "Well, good luck, you're on your own. Hope you can figure out how to run faster to get away...."  The result, simply, is going to be a dead deer.

we are protecting them by adhering to their wish to be left alone, (social distancing) if that is indeed their wish.

 

the lion is on his own too, he will starve to death

if he cant catch that deer, lest we shoot the deer for him and feed him, or at least injure the deer so it cant escape.

thats how life is outside bambi land

Edited September 3, 2020 by scammed

[steelepulse]

7 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

the problem is... 

1. How do you effectively do that with a sizable portion of the overall population (amount varying by country). Plus I don't know what exactly "optionally quarantine" is supposed to mean...

 

and

 

2. While older people are more likely to have serious health consequences and death risk from CV, they're not the only ones who do... Pre-existing health conditions can get you there also...

 

And the younger folks (from teenage on up) are just as capable of spreading the virus to others around them as anyone else. So if you start spreading the infection around to the entire population, even the entire non-elderly population, without any precautions, the deaths and illnesses are still going to start spiraling.

 

Not sure about "spiraling" with a .3 ifr  If you keep the elderly tucked away, then the ifr would be a lot lower.  There's a whole lot of flapping over something that statistics show, isn't very lethal.  

 

Add on top of this, if one does things to help their immune system, then ifr would go down even farther.  Amazing how this guy Fauci and other " health experts" don't mention getting their immune system stronger and instead want you to get injected, or stay indoors and locked down.

[Yellowtail]

6 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Rather than leaving it to society's most/more vulnerable to find a way on their own, my view is, those of us around them ought to take the necessary precautions to ensure as best as possible that WE protect them... not abandon them, while continuing to offer familial support.

 

To me, your notion is kind of like saying to a deer being chased by a lion, "Well, good luck, you're on your own. Hope you can figure out how to run faster to get away...."  The result, simply, is going to be a dead deer.

 

So you're for killing the lion, yes?

 

Which of your businesses have been shut down or reduced to 20% capacity? 

[Yellowtail]

I wonder if a significantly higher percentage of people are dying this year compared to last year.

 

I guess we should see a big dip average life expectancy given all the people killed by the virus this year.

[Tagged]

7 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Rather than leaving it to society's most/more vulnerable to find a way on their own, my view is, those of us around them ought to take the necessary precautions to ensure as best as possible that WE protect them... not abandon them, while continuing to offer familial support.

 

To me, your notion is kind of like saying to a deer being chased by a lion, "Well, good luck, you're on your own. Hope you can figure out how to run faster to get away...."  The result, simply, is going to be a dead deer.

Not necessery, you get a tribe of healthy deer that rund faster than an lion, and only the old sick and weak get sorted out. Its nature. Even we are part of the nature, we can choose to protect those who is vulnerable, and make sure they feel safe or safer. However it is a two edged sword, when you protect the vulnerable, you take from the fittest, but one thing I learned in the army, you are not stronger than the weakest linc, and you never leave a comrade behind. 

 

I choose to trust my government and their recomendations on this crisis, and we own our society to do so. Wealth did not come by it self, and for sure it did not came because people acted out from their own perspective and egoistic reasons. Healthy socialism is better than the far out one for its own sake. 

[Tagged]

10 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

That's what I thought, thanks.

You asking a stupid leading question, what do you expect for an answer? There is many 80 years who have many years left, lived a healthy life, and also still healthy at age of 80, who will die, and not only 80 years, your brother and sister aged 60, or 65 will also die because of the virus if you let it loose. 

 

We will loose so many people that is still important to the economic, workplaces, and so on, even they are retired. We talking apple and oranges, what taste best, what is the most healty of them, and which one have the most profit. 

 

I have for a long time been thinking, giving an 75 year old person a new hip, new lungs, chemoteraphy and so on is waste of money And resourches, but if it was you? What then? 

[Tagged]

On 9/1/2020 at 5:25 PM, checkered flag said:

Covid 19 has been hyped from the beginning. No doubt it accelerates the demise of some, but the real CODs are underlying conditions that were on their way to making things fatal. I've thought all along that one needs to compare deaths during Covid 19 minus normal death rates to get an accurate picture. Sure people are getting sick but most recover. 

One thing that bothers me is that many needy patients have not had required treatments because of isolation and focus on Covid 19. 

The normal flu also acts as an accelerator with weakened patients but could be blunted this year because of face masks, hand washing and social distancing. I can only hope.

 

So, here we go, inernet experts on covid 19, who do not listen to health experts who have studied viruses for decades, and do not listen to health personell in front line. Health personell who have stories first hand from their experiences how it really is, you just sit back, read news, and decide this is a hoax and hyped virus. Welld done, mucho respect sir. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Tagged

[Yellowtail]

49 minutes ago, Tagged said:

You asking a stupid leading question, what do you expect for an answer? There is many 80 years who have many years left, lived a healthy life, and also still healthy at age of 80, who will die, and not only 80 years, your brother and sister aged 60, or 65 will also die because of the virus if you let it loose. 

 

We will loose so many people that is still important to the economic, workplaces, and so on, even they are retired. We talking apple and oranges, what taste best, what is the most healty of them, and which one have the most profit. 

 

I have for a long time been thinking, giving an 75 year old person a new hip, new lungs, chemoteraphy and so on is waste of money And resourches, but if it was you? What then? 

 

Just because you're not able to answer it,  does not make it a stupid question. 

 

Yes, there are plenty of healthy 80 year old people, but a fair percentage of them never see 81, and more than half the population never sees 80.

 

I do not support the government deciding who gets a new hip and who doesn't. 

[Tagged]

11 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Just because you're not able to answer it,  does not make it a stupid question. 

 

Yes, there are plenty of healthy 80 year old people, but a fair percentage of them never see 81, and more than half the population never sees 80.

 

I do not support the government deciding who gets a new hip and who doesn't. 

Im just glad it is not up to you and me to make these decission on behalf of other people. Simple as that. I would for sure done many mistakes against the humanity if it was up to me. God forbid

[LomSak27]

20 per cent to 50 per cent of all adult americans, have underlying medical conditions (depending on how you define it) And that also from the CDC. Adult meaning 19 and older. 

 

Now that doesn't sound like a good thing.     

[Sheryl]

12 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

The people I think are very, very wise (actually not too wise, just wise relative to their peers when it comes to covid) always talk about "excess deaths". So, this is actually a way we can understand how many people have died of covid. Excess death numbers tend to be much less alarming than the numbers the world are shown ticking up every day. 

 

On the contrary, in many countries which have had a significant outbreak, excess deaths (which I agree are by far the best measure) are often way higher than the officially reported COVID deaths. Definitely the casze in the US, where excess deaths already passed 200,000 by July.

 

Excess deaths capture not only deaths from COVID but also deaths from other causes due to overload of the health care system of reduced access to health care. The only way excess deaths won't be higher  is if  the health care system continued to function well with no reduction in access of utilization and few countries  with a high COVID burden managed that.

 

Excess deaths will exclude any deaths from people who were "at death's door/about to die anyway" but the idea that this is a large number of COVID deaths is a fiction to begin with. Even among people aged over 80, most are not "at death's door" or about to imminently die. Average life expectancy among 80 year olds ios 7-9 years depending on sex.

 

 

 

[rumak]

18 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Anyone who disagrees with your extreme right wing  views is called stupid. The last time you time you alleged that I had  given an erroneous statement you were shown to have fabricated your 'fact".

 

1. Start with the impact of a face mask.  They work. And when people wear them, the rate of infection is blunted,  the spread of infection is contained and  new cases  start to  decrease. 

 

i. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/wearing-a-mask-to-halt-the-spread-of-coronavirus-has-a-big-impact-on-us-economic-growthand-goldman-has-done-the-math-2020-06-30   

A team of economists lead by Jan Hatzius, chief economist at Goldman, makes the case that a national face-mask mandate could partially substitute for renewed lockdowns, as COVID-19 inflections flare up in a number of southern and western states in the U.S., that would “otherwise subtract 5% from gross domestic product.”

 

ii.  https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/p0714-americans-to-wear-masks.html

In an editorial published today in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), CDC reviewed the latest science and affirms that cloth face coverings are a critical tool in the fight against COVID-19 that could reduce the spread of the disease, particularly when used universally within communities. There is increasing evidence that cloth face coverings help prevent people who have COVID-19 from spreading the virus to others.

 

Additional data in today’s MMWR showed that immediately after the White House Coronavirus Task Force and CDC advised Americans to wear cloth face coverings when leaving home, the proportion of U.S. adults who chose to do so increased, with 3 in 4 reporting they had adopted the recommendation in a national internet survey.

 

iii.   https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818  The study provides direct evidence on the effectiveness of widespread community use of face masks from a natural experiment that evaluated the effects of state government mandates in the US for face mask use in public on COVID-19 spread. Fifteen states plus Washington, D.C., mandated face mask use between April 8 and May 15. Using an event study that examined daily changes in county-level COVID-19 growth rates, the study found that mandating public use of face masks was associated with a reduction in the COVID-19 daily growth rate.

 

iv. https://www.wsj.com/articles/face-masks-really-do-matter-the-scientific-evidence-is-growing-11595083298

 

 

2. The use of facemasks in the USA  today is significanly higher than what it was in May and   June. After the surge in cases in June, the USa and its states  moved to increased mask wearing. Prior to July, there were few mandates to wear masks. Now there are.  Here's a map showing  who was wearing a mask in the USA. The use of masks  is indeed a factor in the infection rates of the  cities and states implicated.   https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/07/17/upshot/coronavirus-face-mask-map.html

 

According to you, the  public health consensus is wrong. All the scientists have it wrong. However, you, an uneducated man with no work experience in public health and no knowledge of infectious disease have it right.  Good for you. Scream at  the world. We all have it wrong.  What's next from you? An argument that we should burn  the medical  journals and books that have  the  position that is contrary to yours?

 

My comment was made in respect to  the lie that Dr. Fauci  stands to profit from corona virus vaccines. He has no stake in such vaccines. Nor does he have  a "patent" on the Corona Virus. Your refusal to repudiate  such a claim is tantamount to supporting it.

 

 

 

calm down.   i think it is proven that stress is a major contributor to sickness and death.  maybe even more so than david  ,  sorry , i mean Covid.  

 

[steelepulse]

6 hours ago, Tagged said:

You asking a stupid leading question, what do you expect for an answer? There is many 80 years who have many years left, lived a healthy life, and also still healthy at age of 80, who will die, and not only 80 years, your brother and sister aged 60, or 65 will also die because of the virus if you let it loose. 

 

We will loose so many people that is still important to the economic, workplaces, and so on, even they are retired. We talking apple and oranges, what taste best, what is the most healty of them, and which one have the most profit. 

 

I have for a long time been thinking, giving an 75 year old person a new hip, new lungs, chemoteraphy and so on is waste of money And resourches, but if it was you? What then? 

So the social distancing, hand washing, mask wearing etc. will still result in death for those you mention? Aren't these things supposed to prevent the spread?

[steelepulse]

6 hours ago, Tagged said:

So, here we go, inernet experts on covid 19, who do not listen to health experts who have studied viruses for decades, and do not listen to health personell in front line. Health personell who have stories first hand from their experiences how it really is, you just sit back, read news, and decide this is a hoax and hyped virus. Welld done, mucho respect sir. 

The fact of the matter is even "health experts" all have different opinions. 

 

Those at the top are taking their orders from the WHO, who in turn are taking orders from the second largest donor to the WHO, the Gates Foundation and their appointee Tedros, who just happened to sit on a couple of Gates boards.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/bill-gates-who-most-powerful-doctor/

Edited September 4, 2020 by steelepulse

[Yellowtail]

5 hours ago, LomSak27 said:

20 per cent to 50 per cent of all adult americans, have underlying medical conditions (depending on how you define it) And that also from the CDC. Adult meaning 19 and older. 

 

Now that doesn't sound like a good thing.     

 

I think depending on how you define it could be 100%

[Yellowtail]

6 hours ago, Tagged said:

Im just glad it is not up to you and me to make these decission on behalf of other people. Simple as that. I would for sure done many mistakes against the humanity if it was up to me. God forbid

 

There will always be mistakes regardless of who's making the decisions. I can't think of anyone better equipped to make those kinds of decisions than us. 

[Tagged]

56 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

There will always be mistakes regardless of who's making the decisions. I can't think of anyone better equipped to make those kinds of decisions than us. 

Well, the alot younger would got their family inheritance sooner than expected. It would have been a shred of older and younger people dying, and saving the society for future problems! 

 

On the other hand, it would have created other challenges, and maybe challenges we did not see coming in the first hand? 

 

What you say?

[Yellowtail]

8 minutes ago, Tagged said:

Well, the alot younger would got their family inheritance sooner than expected. It would have been a shred of older and younger people dying, and saving the society for future problems! 

 

On the other hand, it would have created other challenges, and maybe challenges we did not see coming in the first hand? 

 

What you say?

 

I don't understand the question. I thought we we talking about who would decide who would get hips, hearts, livers and whatnot. 

 

What do I say about what?

[CygnusX1]

7 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Excess deaths will exclude any deaths from people who were "at death's door/about to die anyway" but the idea that this is a large number of COVID deaths is a fiction to begin with. Even among people aged over 80, most are not "at death's door" or about to imminently die. Average life expectancy among 80 year olds ios 7-9 years depending on sex.

The overwhelming proportion of deaths in the current outbreak in Victoria, Australia, have been of people in nursing homes. My mother died at age 97 after 2 weeks in a nursing home, and having seen the state of the other residents during my visits, I’d be surprised if most of them had a life expectancy of 7-9 months, let alone 7-9 years.

When detailed stats become available, it will be interesting to see if an 85 year old who lives independently and plays tennis and golf each week had the same chance of dying of a China virus infection as an 85 year old in a nursing home who vegetates in front of a TV all day.

 

[utalkin2me]

22 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

On the contrary, in many countries which have had a significant outbreak, excess deaths (which I agree are by far the best measure) are often way higher than the officially reported COVID deaths. Definitely the casze in the US, where excess deaths already passed 200,000 by July.

 

Excess deaths capture not only deaths from COVID but also deaths from other causes due to overload of the health care system of reduced access to health care. The only way excess deaths won't be higher  is if  the health care system continued to function well with no reduction in access of utilization and few countries  with a high COVID burden managed that.

 

Excess deaths will exclude any deaths from people who were "at death's door/about to die anyway" but the idea that this is a large number of COVID deaths is a fiction to begin with. Even among people aged over 80, most are not "at death's door" or about to imminently die. Average life expectancy among 80 year olds ios 7-9 years depending on sex.

 

 

 

You say excess deaths are way higher, I do not dispute that, but I am talking about now. Look at excess deaths for August for example, or the first week of September. These are difficult numbers to estimate and define, but what we are seeing is there is simply not nearly as much damage currently as is being reported by cases and "second wave" hysteria.