Land Issue

[nwh]

I recently purchased 1 rai of land in my Thai wife's name which had a clean chanote title. It later turned out that there is a person holding Nor Sor 1 title to our and the adjacent land plots and his title was never registered in the land office. It has also turned out that the chanote title was supposedly issued in contempt of the court's earlier order to stop any transactions on the land plots in question. The person is sueing the group (family) of people that own the land as on the chanote titles. He claims that he had purchased the land on a court auction. The land had been confiscated by the court as a collateral for on of the owners deaulted loan.

No record of the above was displayed in the land office in the history books when we and our broker was performing the search.

As a result, we are not able to sell the land, or build on it; in addition, the plaintiff has recently built a wall around the whole complex restricting access to our plot.

We contacted 3 lawyers up to date, unfortunately none has been able to give us any solution or course of action other than to seek court injunction and have the plaintiff remove the wall. That however still does not resolve anything long term. The battle between th plintiff and the family group will take not months but years rather and in the meantime we can't do much about anything.

HAs anyone had a similiar experience in Thailand? I would appreciate any advise from the forum members.

[lopburi3]

Sorry but believe your first sentence has lost you your case:

I recently purchased 1 rai of land in my Thai wife's name

[nwh]

Sorry but believe your first sentence has lost you your case:

Could you clarify your point (if you have one)? So far your statement doesn't make sense. I believe, many people have wives here with the land in their name.

[quiksilva]

The land had been confiscated by the court as a collateral for on of the owners deaulted loan.

There should be public records of such an action, and the land office really should have been aware of this too.

At the end of the day your lawyer (if you had one) should have done the due diligence on the title instead of your broker.

I'm afraid that there is not a lot you can do really. All I can think of is that you either follow your lawyer's advice, get actively involved in trying to settle this out of court (but I don't recommend that route ), or write it off and move on.

-- for the record I don't see the relevance of Lopburi's post either.

[lopburi3]

I recently purchased 1 rai of land in my Thai wife's name

His wife can purchase land for herself - not for him. He can not purchase land.

[Tornado]

Lopburi's post is a little pedantic IMHO. It seems the same people seem to keep jumping on that bandwagon anytime someone posts along those lines. I have done the same thing on some land of MINE/WIFES - It might be better to write "our land" if your married, so the silly crowd dont keep posting the same boring crap that we are all aware of.

I had a similiar situation myself a few years ago. I didnt have a full due dilligence done, but I trusted the land department and went and purchased a 22 Rai beach front plot... It is still in court now after about 7 years. The land department issued the chanote and transferred the land to my company, but many things were not right behind the scene. The land department have wiped there hands of it and I have no come back on them. Good old Thailand! I learnt a lot and will not make that mistake again.

Major Due dilligence by a trusted lawyers firm is the only way to find everything out as even the land department cannot be trusted to give you the right info.

nwh, where are you located? I might be able to put you in touch with someone.

[LoveDaBlues]

Lopburi's post is a little pedantic IMHO. It seems the same people seem to keep jumping on that bandwagon anytime someone posts along those lines. I have done the same thing on some land of MINE/WIFES - It might be better to write "our land" if your married, so the silly crowd dont keep posting the same boring crap that we are all aware of.

I had a similiar situation myself a few years ago. I didnt have a full due dilligence done, but I trusted the land department and went and purchased a 22 Rai beach front plot... It is still in court now after about 7 years. The land department issued the chanote and transferred the land to my company, but many things were not right behind the scene. The land department have wiped there hands of it and I have no come back on them. Good old Thailand! I learnt a lot and will not make that mistake again.

Major Due dilligence by a trusted lawyers firm is the only way to find everything out as even the land department cannot be trusted to give you the right info.

nwh, where are you located? I might be able to put you in touch with someone.

If the Land Office does not have the updated/correct info where would one check? Court records? This is scary stuff. I paid for 5.5 rai about 8 months ago with no involvement from a lawyer. The owner's records and the land office records matched so we assumed everything is okay. I'm guessing there's more 'monkey business' in the higher-buck-per-rai areas than where I'm located (Udon Thani).

Tornado, this sounds like a case where the owner sold the same parcel of land to 2 different buyers!

[mosquitoman]

More info here about the legalities of buying land in a spouces name

http://samuiforsale.com/Sale%20and%20Purchase.htm#Other

MM

[nwh]

Lopburi's post is a little pedantic IMHO. It seems the same people seem to keep jumping on that bandwagon anytime someone posts along those lines. I have done the same thing on some land of MINE/WIFES - It might be better to write "our land" if your married, so the silly crowd dont keep posting the same boring crap that we are all aware of.

I had a similiar situation myself a few years ago. I didnt have a full due dilligence done, but I trusted the land department and went and purchased a 22 Rai beach front plot... It is still in court now after about 7 years. The land department issued the chanote and transferred the land to my company, but many things were not right behind the scene. The land department have wiped there hands of it and I have no come back on them. Good old Thailand! I learnt a lot and will not make that mistake again.

Major Due dilligence by a trusted lawyers firm is the only way to find everything out as even the land department cannot be trusted to give you the right info.

nwh, where are you located? I might be able to put you in touch with someone.

Tornado, no I didn't have a lawyer doing dd; now I know what a grand mistake that was. The broker advised that he will do the dd in the land office and that this will positively determine the quality of the title. I tend to think that the broker might have known about the family fight about the land but can't prove it.

I'm located in Phuket, contacted 3 lawyers sofar but still not happy with their advise. One told us yesterday after his research that there's not much we can do now other than wait for the outcome of the court case between the original owners (group of 8) and the plaintiff with the nor sor 1. If it goes to the supreme it will take up to 5 years. If the court ruling is in favor of the plaintiff than we can toss out the chanote. I'm puzzled though that there is no laws in Thailand that would protect a honest byuer and enable her to get a recompensation from corrupted land office.

Anyway let me know if you know some experts here in phuket.

nwh

[nwh]

More info here about the legalities of buying land in a spouces name

http://samuiforsale.com/Sale%20and%20Purchase.htm#Other

MM

Thanks, do you know what happens if the wife dies, we have a kid, does he automaticaly inherit the land and his parent manages the property as a minor's guardian, or???

But I guess i should post it as a new topic as it is not related to my original one.

[qualtrough]

If I were the OP I would seek the counsel of a top-drawer legal firm like Tilleke & Gibbin or similar and would not monkey around with local or one-man operations.

[ProThaiExpat]

It almost goes without saying that anyone can sue anyone anytime.

On the face of this thread, without any further information, it would seem that the recorded chanote holder will prevail in the long run. Unfortunately, such litigation seems to last forever, especially in Thailand.

While Thai legalities seem to be very variable, justice is most often done, absent outright corruption.

The presence of an unrecorded chanote is not discoverable with due diligence short of hiring private detectives to interview adjoining landowners and village gossips.

I would be surprised if the unrecorded chanote holder prevailed unless some governmental bureaucratic error was made wherein it was proved that an actual recording of the unrecorded chanote was made but the land office failed to make it a public record.

[nwh]

It almost goes without saying that anyone can sue anyone anytime.

On the face of this thread, without any further information, it would seem that the recorded chanote holder will prevail in the long run. Unfortunately, such litigation seems to last forever, especially in Thailand.

While Thai legalities seem to be very variable, justice is most often done, absent outright corruption.

The presence of an unrecorded chanote is not discoverable with due diligence short of hiring private detectives to interview adjoining landowners and village gossips.

I would be surprised if the unrecorded chanote holder prevailed unless some governmental bureaucratic error was made wherein it was proved that an actual recording of the unrecorded chanote was made but the land office failed to make it a public record.

That's exactly my thinking. Just one correction: the unrecorded title is nor sor 1; not even chanote. the recorded title is chanote in the name of my wife.

Again, you're right and when you speak about corruption and going on in the governmental offices, this is what I worry about. And taht's what it might've been happenning since as we learned the court had issued a document to the land office prohibiting it from changing a status or ownership of the land once it had auctioned the land. Regardless, the land office did not respect cort order and issued chanote for the whole land then another titles for the subdivision and then one of them was converted into my wife. As you can see there were several title activities performed by the land office PRIOR to the plaintiff's motion includeing transfer of 1 rai chanote into my wife's name.

I think, Tornado's case is similiar although he doesn't tell details.

[eljeque]

If this involves a serious amount of money (20,000,000 ? Baht), then it might be worthwhile to locate a high profile international law firm in Bkk with an office in Phuket. They would not only know the law, but more important, they would know how to implement it quickly.

I wish you the best of luck.

[GuestHouse]

We bought our land from a court auction - That is land we bought in my wife's name. - If anyone here has an issue with me buying land in my wife's name, either get over yourself or go self medicate. – Alternatively go find someone else to work your own problems out on.

To the OP

If the land has indeed been seized by the court there will be a record of the seizure and of the auction available at the court office - The name of the office is the "SAM-NAK-GARN-BANG-KHAP-KHA-DEE".

If you are not aware, in these cases the court does three things. First it rules that the land/asset shall be seized where there is an unpaid debt.

Secondly the court auctions the land to the highest bidder.

Thirdly the court settles the debt (or as much of the debt as possible) with the proceeds of the sale.

Note hear that the title of the deed changes hands only once: The previous owner looses control of the title at the court ruling- the seizure, (the court takes control of the title to sell it to settle the debts).

The title only changes hands when the court sells the land to the new owner.

The "SAM-NAK-GARN-BANG-KHAP-KHA-DEE" will have a record of these transactions.

Throughout the procedure the Title deeds are held by the court office. So no change of title can occur until the court sells the land.

The court ruling ceasing the land removes all previous owner rights (other than the right to the residue of funds after sale and settling the debts/administrative fees).

SO Your First Action

Absolutely First - Start a well ordered file of records.

Then:

Determine that the person who sold you the land actually had title to the land when he sold it _ Here's some things to look at:

The possibility I see are two fold:

1. He did have title to sell (He must therefore have bought the land from the court – or from someone else after the court sale).

2. He did have title, but it is he himself who is being taken to court to seize that piece of land. (I know you say there is a legal action going on, but why and by whom against who is not certain).

3. He had title, but didn't have legal right to sell because the land was already under a court order.

Go to the "SAM-NAK-GARN-BANG-KHAP-KHA-DEE" and find the records relating to the court hearings (if available).

Ask two questions:

1. Is there a record of the court having seized and sold the land?

(If so get precise dates and the names of each party Previous Owner/New Owner AND Court Ruling Reference Number)

2. Is there a record of that the court is about to rule on the land?

(If so get precise date that the court action was notified and the names of each party Plaintiff and Respondent AND Court Case Reference Number)

Go to the land office and get a confirmation of the exact date when the land title changed from Nor Sor 1 to Chanote and in who’s name the documents where registered.

Important Points to Note:

The information you will have gathered should indicate if the previous owner had legal title and the legal right to sell.

If the land was indeed sold through the court then the title is clean and there should be no other calls on the land. But you still may need to go to court to get the walls removed - in fact I'd advice doing so rather than taking action yourself.

If there is any legal restriction on selling the land this should be in the court office records.

The thing to note is even if there are restrictions, did you buy the land before the court restriction? (ie did someone come looking for assets that where already sold?)

But also be aware that you may find the previous owner was aware he was going to be taken to court so set about making a quick sale - If this is so, dates become very important.

In Summary

I think you need to establish for yourself if the title was legally saleable when you bought. I think you can do all of that work yourself and probably do not need a lawyer.

If you have any connections, or can garner a bit of help from staff at the court office then you will greatly reduce the pain of getting the records.

You can of course get a lawyer to help. But my guess is you need to be very specific about what you want him/her to do for you.

Confirming the status of the title and that no court orders where in place at the time of the sale is your first priority.

If you can prove that, you can regain control of the land.

Two things to note:

Just as the previous owner may have been chancing it by selling the property from under a court order.

Likewise the people who have built a wall around the property may be chancing it, hoping to recover a debt that the court had failed to recover.

Hope this helps.

[edit - spelling]

Edited May 2, 2007 by GuestHouse