Turkish leader backs boycott of French goods over cartoon row

[from the home of CC]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think a consumer boycott on the citizen level will do much damage, even if it was upheld in a sustained and organized manner (extremely unlikely anyway, IMO). The only way for this to get traction is if enough of the angered citizens make their leaders think it's a good idea to play this one for the mob. Boycotts on a state level are something else - although, granted, likely to hurt both sides involved.

 

I don't think that there was any French policy regarding the events leading to the incident. One might say that's a policy by itself, or that there should have been curbs in place to begin with. Don't know that I agree with either, something things just happen.

 

As it stands this coincides with Macron's previously stated goal of addressing Islamic (or Islamist or Muslim, whatever) 'separatism' in France. Naturally, it puts him in a place where he needs to take a hard-line position, even if it would have been wiser (from a foreign policy point of view) to tone it down. Same as the leaders referred to in the beginning of the post, he too is bound to play according to what the populace demands.

with the Turkish presidents depiction on the cover of the latest issue events seem to be spiraling deeper into 'see who can hurt the other one the most' with indiscriminate violence the obvious result. Just think of how many 'lockdowned  wannabee jihadists there are out there, just waiting for an excuse to get their two minutes of fame on martyr.com. Though I understand the principles involved, this is pure folly by stupidly risking the lives of innocent citizens for they are the ones that will pay the ultimate price here. Policy, pride, ego, whatever, the folks calling the shots on this at least are surrounded by a security detail, the headless woman in the church had no such luxury..

[greenhornfarang]

On 10/26/2020 at 9:39 PM, canopus1969 said:

Need to change that to "Islam is the enemy of peace"

You have any proof to go with that allegation?

[canopus1969]

8 hours ago, greenhornfarang said:

You have any proof to go with that allegation?

Open your eyes

[Pattaya Spotter]

They make things in ???????? ...can't think of the last French good i purchased...maybe some cheese.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

They make things in ???????? ...can't think of the last French good i purchased...maybe some cheese.

 

Yes....and your shopping list is all the proof one needs, apparently.

 

List of exports of France

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exports_of_France

[Pattaya Spotter]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yes....and your shopping list is all the proof one needs, apparently.

 

List of exports of France

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exports_of_France

Interesting...they do a good trade in human and animal blood. I'm definitely boycotting them ????????????

[Morch]

12 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

with the Turkish presidents depiction on the cover of the latest issue events seem to be spiraling deeper into 'see who can hurt the other one the most' with indiscriminate violence the obvious result. Just think of how many 'lockdowned  wannabee jihadists there are out there, just waiting for an excuse to get their two minutes of fame on martyr.com. Though I understand the principles involved, this is pure folly by stupidly risking the lives of innocent citizens for they are the ones that will pay the ultimate price here. Policy, pride, ego, whatever, the folks calling the shots on this at least are surrounded by a security detail, the headless woman in the church had no such luxury..

 

Is Erdogan's depiction on the cover of the latest issue down to government policy? Would you think it preferable if following the attacks and commentary by Erdogan, that the French government would pressure the media to keep mum, apply censorship and such? Wouldn't that be giving in to ideas foreign to the nature of France? I don't know that anyone in government called the shots on this one.

 

 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Interesting...they do a good trade in human and animal blood. I'm definitely boycotting them ????????????

 

Of course they do, and of course you are. I'd venture your imaginary 'boycott' would last exactly until your next nonsense post.

[Pattaya Spotter]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Of course they do, and of course you are. I'd venture your imaginary 'boycott' would last exactly until your next nonsense post.

I could report you for trolling as you don't appear to want to engage in an exchange of views but act like an insult comic...but I won't; I'll just block you. Have a nice life.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

I could report you for trolling as you don't appear to want to engage in an exchange of views but act like an insult comic...but I won't; I'll just block you. Have a nice life.

 

I responded to your first nonsense post with a factual one. You retorted with yet more nonsense. That's not much of an 'exchange of views'. Got to love posters who announce they are blocking/ignoring others - what is the point of that?

[from the home of CC]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Is Erdogan's depiction on the cover of the latest issue down to government policy? Would you think it preferable if following the attacks and commentary by Erdogan, that the French government would pressure the media to keep mum, apply censorship and such? Wouldn't that be giving in to ideas foreign to the nature of France? I don't know that anyone in government called the shots on this one.

 

 

it's collective flag waiving, and by itself there's nothing wrong in that. But when the energy is directed at insulting a billion people, consequences will happen. These insults were designed to be the most hurtful to the psyche of the Muslim, and they were very effective. Much thought was given to what the religion holds sacred and the best means to desecrate it. At the very least, the soldiers/security should have been deployed prior to the latest salvo (from the magazine) to help to deter attacks. The government knew exactly what's going to be on that magazine cover before it hit the streets, hell, they're it's biggest cheerleaders. The trouble is for some of these terrorists/psychos, their faith is all they have. Some have lost their families, homeland and any semblance of normality from their lives. They are already at the tipping point. I'm not advocating censorship here, I'm talking about mitigating risk especially during these especially trying times for the whole world. But I'm sure the French will just carry on, lighting fires then putting them out - but to what end and to what price for the freedom to insult a billion people - I just don't see an upside to this..   

[Morch]

1 hour ago, from the home of CC said:

it's collective flag waiving, and by itself there's nothing wrong in that. But when the energy is directed at insulting a billion people, consequences will happen. These insults were designed to be the most hurtful to the psyche of the Muslim, and they were very effective. Much thought was given to what the religion holds sacred and the best means to desecrate it. At the very least, the soldiers/security should have been deployed prior to the latest salvo (from the magazine) to help to deter attacks. The government knew exactly what's going to be on that magazine cover before it hit the streets, hell, they're it's biggest cheerleaders. The trouble is for some of these terrorists/psychos, their faith is all they have. Some have lost their families, homeland and any semblance of normality from their lives. They are already at the tipping point. I'm not advocating censorship here, I'm talking about mitigating risk especially during these especially trying times for the whole world. But I'm sure the French will just carry on, lighting fires then putting them out - but to what end and to what price for the freedom to insult a billion people - I just don't see an upside to this..   

 

Was there anything 'collective' about it? How so?

And why should we assume a billion people are automatically 'insulted' by stuff? They can't all follow foreign news, they can't all be fully into their religion, they are not some sort of hive-mind. What about the billions of people who are 'insulted' by such attacks, by the restrictions advocated by followers of this religion.

 

I get the security concerns. I get that it might have been safer for the government to intervene or manage some sort of stepping back. Doesn't always work out this way.

[from the home of CC]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Was there anything 'collective' about it? How so?

And why should we assume a billion people are automatically 'insulted' by stuff? They can't all follow foreign news, they can't all be fully into their religion, they are not some sort of hive-mind. What about the billions of people who are 'insulted' by such attacks, by the restrictions advocated by followers of this religion.

 

I get the security concerns. I get that it might have been safer for the government to intervene or manage some sort of stepping back. Doesn't always work out this way.

collective by the society (seen with the teacher murder), their politicians (continuing to aflame) and their press (obviously) - and yes, in these 'online' times with cheap phones and internet, most likely anyone that is Muslim has heard the insults. These first attacks were lone wolf loonies, I'll give you 100 -1 odds that a major coordinated attack is coming that has made all other attacks seem tame. For what? To bang a huge pot about a law and a social conscience detailing free speech that is already on the books and in play every day? This is more about ego imo and I hope they find it worth it..

[Morch]

35 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

collective by the society (seen with the teacher murder), their politicians (continuing to aflame) and their press (obviously) - and yes, in these 'online' times with cheap phones and internet, most likely anyone that is Muslim has heard the insults. These first attacks were lone wolf loonies, I'll give you 100 -1 odds that a major coordinated attack is coming that has made all other attacks seem tame. For what? To bang a huge pot about a law and a social conscience detailing free speech that is already on the books and in play every day? This is more about ego imo and I hope they find it worth it..

 

So your suggestion is what? Appeasement? Accepting imported religious constraints in a secular country? Or maybe giving Islam some sort of extra hallowed status among the worlds' religions?

[Opl]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

So your suggestion is what? Appeasement? Accepting imported religious constraints in a secular country? Or maybe giving Islam some sort of extra hallowed status among the worlds' religions?

Islam is an ideology

[Morch]

22 minutes ago, Opl said:

Islam is an ideology

 

And your post is a deflection. Doesn't matter if you want to insist on it being an ideology or whether you 'accept' it as a religion. The questions posed above remain unanswered.

 

Note that this exchange is based solely on your inability to address your own post - in which you advocated mass deportations, without addressing moral or practical issues associated with taking such a path.

[from the home of CC]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

So your suggestion is what? Appeasement? Accepting imported religious constraints in a secular country? Or maybe giving Islam some sort of extra hallowed status among the worlds' religions?

nah, just application of existing laws:

 

The hate speech laws in France are matters of both civil law and criminal law. Those laws protect individuals and groups from being defamed or insulted because they belong or do not belong, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity or because they have a handicap. The laws forbid any communication which is intended to incite discrimination against, hatred of, or harm to, anyone because of his belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity, or because he or she has a handicap.

 

 

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

nah, just application of existing laws:

 

The hate speech laws in France are matters of both civil law and criminal law. Those laws protect individuals and groups from being defamed or insulted because they belong or do not belong, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity or because they have a handicap. The laws forbid any communication which is intended to incite discrimination against, hatred of, or harm to, anyone because of his belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity, or because he or she has a handicap.

 

 

 

Unless mistaken, the magazine was taken to court before, and was not found guilty. Also, the next section in the Wiki page you quote from discusses the issue of blasphemy - or rather, it being a non-issue in France.

 

As for application of existing laws, these do not give offended parties the right to behead and stab others - especially those having nothing to do with the 'insult'.

 

[Opl]

"According to local media reports, a host of large supermarket chains in Saudi Arabia have replaced various Turkish products with products from Greece, in order to support Athens in its long-ongoing fight against Ankara over the maritime border in East Mediterranean."

https://eurasiantimes.com/turkey-urges-boycott-of-french-products-but-its-own-products-are-getting-boycotted-in-saudi-arabia/

.

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Opl

[from the home of CC]

20 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Unless mistaken, the magazine was taken to court before, and was not found guilty. Also, the next section in the Wiki page you quote from discusses the issue of blasphemy - or rather, it being a non-issue in France.

 

As for application of existing laws, these do not give offended parties the right to behead and stab others - especially those having nothing to do with the 'insult'.

 

when he magazine was first taken to court the judges ruled that because the mag was targeting terrorism it wasn't in violation, clearly the depiction of Erdogan doesn't fall into that class. And you're absolutely correct, it does not give anyone the right to savagely murder. But if they allow the insults to continue there will be a price to pay with peoples lives. I guess if they feel these peoples lives are an equitable trade for their ability to wage this insult campaign then all is good then. As all involved know the likely outcome of continuing to disparage the Muslims will be blood then I guess that's the direction the country will take - just as long no one is surprised or shocked at what comes in the future. Fortunately covid is helping French security forces presently due to the massive lockdown, anyone on the street will be scrutinized. But as history has shown us, the ones with evil intent are very patient..

[Opl]

34 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

when he magazine was first taken to court the judges ruled that because the mag was targeting terrorism it wasn't in violation, clearly the depiction of Erdogan doesn't fall into that class. And you're absolutely correct, it does not give anyone the right to savagely murder. But if they allow the insults to continue there will be a price to pay with peoples lives. I guess if they feel these peoples lives are an equitable trade for their ability to wage this insult campaign then all is good then. As all involved know the likely outcome of continuing to disparage the Muslims will be blood then I guess that's the direction the country will take - just as long no one is surprised or shocked at what comes in the future. Fortunately covid is helping French security forces presently due to the massive lockdown, anyone on the street will be scrutinized. But as history has shown us, the ones with evil intent are very patient..

 

"It does not give anyone the right to savagely murder. But..  "

Really? 

You're just legitimizing those killings.

French Law prevails in France. Period. 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Opl

[Morch]

38 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

when he magazine was first taken to court the judges ruled that because the mag was targeting terrorism it wasn't in violation, clearly the depiction of Erdogan doesn't fall into that class. And you're absolutely correct, it does not give anyone the right to savagely murder. But if they allow the insults to continue there will be a price to pay with peoples lives. I guess if they feel these peoples lives are an equitable trade for their ability to wage this insult campaign then all is good then. As all involved know the likely outcome of continuing to disparage the Muslims will be blood then I guess that's the direction the country will take - just as long no one is surprised or shocked at what comes in the future. Fortunately covid is helping French security forces presently due to the massive lockdown, anyone on the street will be scrutinized. But as history has shown us, the ones with evil intent are very patient..

 

Once more -  what is it that you suggest? What would you have done differently? What ought to be done in the future? As it stands, seems like you're prescribing don't-<deleted>-them-off as the only medicine.

[from the home of CC]

4 hours ago, Opl said:

 

"It does not give anyone the right to savagely murder. But..  "

Really? 

You're just legitimizing those killings.

French Law prevails in France. Period. 

not legitimizing anything - just pointing out these deaths were preventable with a little fore thought. Unfortunately, I don't see the same option going forward for it does appear the fuse is burning intensely..  

[Opl]

On 10/30/2020 at 12:33 PM, Morch said:

 

And your post is a deflection. Doesn't matter if you want to insist on it being an ideology or whether you 'accept' it as a religion. The questions posed above remain unanswered.

 

Note that this exchange is based solely on your inability to address your own post - in which you advocated mass deportations, without addressing moral or practical issues associated with taking such a path.

 

I' m totally for the mass deportation of illegal migrants who smuggled into France together with traffickers they support and vice versa, and have absolutely no problem with that. It's so obvious.

All my posts on this issue (fake asylum seekers, undocumented migrants, denied asylum status etc..)  say the same. Nobody opposing  this statement has been able to demonstrate all the benefits of illegal immigration for the host country.. I'm still waiting.

And yes Islam is a submissive political  ideology, and we have no such problems with religions - as private matters.    

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Opl

[teacherclaire]

Erdogan, who has a history of fraught relations with Macron, said France was pursuing an anti-Islam agenda.

 

 

  France should send them all away. Their Euros are okay, but when a good teacher uses cartoon characters, they call it blasphemy? 

 

  If Muslims and Christians can't live together, why don't they move to Muslim countries instead of European countries with nothing in common?

 

And this guy wants to get his country to Europe. Not that he likes Europeans, he likes their currency only.

 

 That should have more severe reactions now coming from the West.  

A teacher who got killed for the nonsense that wasn't intended to name or shame anybody and now such reactions?

 

He was doing his job, and he wasn't a bad teacher—shame on them.

 

I'm glad that I do not belong to any religion on this planet. 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by teacherclaire

[Opl]

1 minute ago, teacherclaire said:

Erdogan, who has a history of fraught relations with Macron, said France was pursuing an anti-Islam agenda.

 

    France should send them all away. Their Euros are okay, but when a good teacher is using cartoon characters, they call it blasphemy? 

 

   If Muslims and Christians can't live together, why don't they move to Muslim countries, instead of European countries where they have nothing in common with?

 

And this guy wants to get his country to Europe. Not that the likes Europeans, he likes their currency only.

 

 That should have more severe reactions now coming from the West.  

 

 

France has the most important part of Muslim population in Europe for decades,   over 2500 Mosques and worship places , and they call it an anti-Islam agenda. It's laughable. 

We are just resisting rampant Islamisation, as we are a non Muslim country - and want to stay as such.

If you choose to live in France and embrace our core values, we don't care if you are a Muslim or not.

But If you oppose our Laws and consider Sharia Law prevails, then you're an Islamist and it's a different story.

Apparently it's difficult to understand.   

[Opl]

2 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

not legitimizing anything - just pointing out these deaths were preventable with a little fore thought. Unfortunately, I don't see the same option going forward for it does appear the fuse is burning intensely..  

Not sure, the cartoons are a pretext, we had so many terror attacks, and more and more from individuals who then declared they couldn't stand living in a country of disbelievers - not mentioning the cartoons ( this year is special due to the ongoing Charlie Hebdo trial ) .. anyway normally, it's the chameleon that changes colour. 

If you ask French people if they want to change the fabric of their country the Muslim way, the answer is no. Absolutely no... unless you ask French Muslims who also have dual  nationalities.

But as usual, the most reasonable will give in - at a cost.  

But those who oppose free speech in France can always apply for asylum in China,     

Edited October 31, 2020 by Opl

[Thorgal]

1 hour ago, Opl said:

 

I' m totally for the mass deportation of illegal migrants who smuggled into France together with traffickers they support and vice versa, and have absolutely no problem with that. It's so obvious.

All my posts on this issue (fake asylum seekers, undocumented migrants, denied asylum status etc..)  say the same. Nobody opposing  this statement has been able to demonstrate all the benefits of illegal immigration for the host country.. I'm still waiting.

And yes Islam is a submissive political  ideology, and we have no such problems with religions - as private matters.    

 

 

Salafist quietism was never a problem for Erdogan and Macron.

 

Salafist jihadism on the other hand was countered in Iraq and Syria through the coalition forces including France and Turkey.

 

Both types of salafism share the same dogma which is totally the opposite of Western values.

 

It’s more important to focus on the triggers and (terrorist) consequences of Salafist jihadism, instead of trying to analyse the ideology.

 

Salafist ideologies have nothing to do with traditional Islam. Both are opposed.

 

3 most dangerous French Salafist jihadis from the last 10 years were French native men. They were commanders and/or recruiters.

There’s an estimated 3.600 native French people converting every year to Islam. Or 10 per day.

 

Latest modus operandi of Terrorist attacks or infiltration  is through the migration  tracks to Europe due to the fall of IS, AQ and other local franchise in Syria and Iraq.

 

I suppose that OP refers to internal coordination struggle between the coalition partners after the war in Syria...

[CG1 Blue]

What is laughable about all this - their god is supposedly all powerful, intelligent, invincible etc. etc., yet the fundamentalists feel the need to protect him from some cartoon pictures. 

Pathetic creatures.

They need to be weeded out from European nations asap. Preferably chucked into purpose built Islamist prisons, for the rest of their miserable lives.  

[CG1 Blue]

Breaking news: 

 

Lyon attack: 'Orthodox priest wounded in shooting'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54763136