Three dead as woman beheaded in knife attack at French church

[Opl]

2 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

Nothing is going to change the Muslim mindset ,you can see what a few silly words about their prophet has set off around the world and their reaction to them,i remember the days in my old home town where there were no mosques ,no imams ,and most of them dressed like us and in many ways were fairly integrated ,times long gone ,now muslims on the whole cannot integrate ,nothing can be done ,eventually we will either have a war with them or just let them take over ,thankfully i will never see the outcome .

normally it's the chameleon that changes color

[simple1]

12 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

Nothing is going to change the Muslim mindset ,you can see what a few silly words about their prophet has set off around the world and their reaction to them,i remember the days in my old home town where there were no mosques ,no imams ,and most of them dressed like us and in many ways were fairly integrated ,times long gone ,now muslims on the whole cannot integrate ,nothing can be done ,eventually we will either have a war with them or just let them take over ,thankfully i will never see the outcome .

 

We differ, nothing stays fixed forever, nor is it the position of our security agencies. 

[KhunFred]

On 11/2/2020 at 6:55 AM, kingdong said:

And we all live happily ever after,fine in theory,reality appears to be somewhat different.

I like the French. I don't really give a damn if they like me or any other Americans. The French seem to understand Democracy very well.

[kingdong]

6 hours ago, KhunFred said:

I like the French. I don't really give a damn if they like me or any other Americans. The French seem to understand Democracy very well.

And seem to be paying a tragic price for their understanding of democracy.

[pacovl46]

7 hours ago, simple1 said:

My two cents...

 

It's a question, which is usually responded to with the equivalent "give an inch and they'll take a mile". In the case of those with an Islamist outlook, no doubt correct with ever increasing demands contrary to the legal and cultural aspects of Western society e.g. Sharia criminal law. IMO it is not a matter one can ask in isolation of all other issues and will take decades to negotiate and transition to in a mutually agreeable cultural co-existence. In the meantime killings of innocents will continue, likely on both sides, which will take immense effort by Western governments to minimise further decisiveness within society -

 

I honestly fail to see how Charlie Hebdo not publishing cartoons that make fun of Islam will lead to the establishment of sharia law in France! Essentially all they’re asking for is to be respectful of their religion and not make fun of it. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by pacovl46

[kingdong]

10 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

I honestly fail to see how Charlie Hebdo not publishing cartoons that make fun of Islam will lead to the establishment of sharia law in France! Essentially all they’re asking for is to be respectful of their religion and not make fun of it. 

So the series monty pythons flying circus should be banned?

[pacovl46]

1 minute ago, kingdong said:

So the series monty pythons flying circus should be banned?

Do psychopathic Christians kill innocent people when someone makes fun of Jesus?

[kingdong]

11 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

Do psychopathic Christians kill innocent people when someone makes fun of Jesus?

You answered your own question.

[simple1]

36 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

I honestly fail to see how Charlie Hebdo not publishing cartoons that make fun of Islam will lead to the establishment of sharia law in France! Essentially all they’re asking for is to be respectful of their religion and not make fun of it. 

I’m not saying it would, just that surrendering to one demand will lead to another demand reenforced by violence by Islamists. Best to draw a line in the sand.

[Morch]

14 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

The fact is Arab youth have tried (Arab Spring) to change the dictatorships, but were violently crushed. Western nations did nothing to assist the uprisings, only empty words of encouragement, against heavily armed militaries, supplied by the West, The only success was the Tunisian Arab Spring.

 

Those that did go 'trekking'. more often than not were occupying / exploitative of the local population for the benefit of their home country. Decolonisation didn't get underway until after WW11, sometimes only after vicious independence wars. 

 

The Arab Spring was many things, and on more than one instance and juncture, was hijacked by other interests and forces pretty alien to the notions of democracy and freedom. I doubt that had some of these uprisings been 'successful', the result would have been all that great - locally, regionally and internationally.

 

As for relevant military forces being supplied by the West - the Arab Spring, as far as I recall, was 'happening' in Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Libya, Bahrain and Yemen(?). Two of these were obviously not dependent on Western arms. Other than that, I don't think that in most cases the full military might of relevant forces was brought to bear, so not sure the argument got much going for it anyway. More to do with political support (tacit or other), probably.

[Morch]

14 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

Given the those countries with a right of centre government are basically repressive / police states, personally I would not call them out as 'week' from a law and order perspective. To me knowledge EU member countries cannot have immigration polices 'shoved down their throats', they can easily just say no without too much consequence other than exchanging 'words'.

 

I wasn't thinking about 'law and order; but more about economic circumstances, social issues and prevailing popular views. Not all EU members are equally prosperous, democratic or accommodating - it's a work in progress.

 

Technically, no - this cannot be 'forced' as such. But rejecting the bigger players (like Germany) point of view and wishes might come with a price tag, say on economic matters. I doubt things are quite as straightforward when it comes to this level of decision making. Coercion can wear many faces.

 

Or, if you will - the 'shoved down their throats' may be more apt with regard to the population, rather than its political representatives. I don't know how many Europeans feel that they haven't quite 'signed up for this' - but I guess that in some countries, the figures are significant.

[Morch]

14 hours ago, kingdong said:

They wanted their independence and got it,no good whingeing when it dosen,t go the way you want it,you kak your bed you lie in it.

 

Europe's history is full of dissidents, rebels, exiles, refugees and immigrants who were seeking life and support in countries not their own.

[Opl]

2 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Do psychopathic Christians kill innocent people when someone makes fun of Jesus?

So in France - today-   "you know what  i'm talking about" bus drivers , demanded the removal of Borat ads - pretexting they were shocked.. (but they were not vocal about the beheading)

because of this ring - let's talk about opressed "minorities fleeing their countries.. seeking life and support in countries not their own"..   really?  

What's next ? Strike?

Hire "you what I'm talking about" bus drivers and you know what fight you're going into..on the other hand they rightly can fear their buses could be targeted by "you know what I'm talking about" populations.  

  

Edited November 3, 2020 by Opl

[Morch]

13 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

I call vehemently BS on that one! I never said it’s justified or legitimate to kill people in response to a cartoon making fun of their religion! It also has absolutely nothing to do with absolving or not holding them responsible! Their crimes are despicable! There’s no two ways about it! 
 

What you either aren’t capable of grasping or not willing to understand is that there’s psychopaths out there who will kill if you make fun of their prophet! The question at hand is, and I know I’m repeating myself, is it worth it to publish a fricking cartoon that’s aimed to <deleted> off people and willingly take the risk of getting your own people killed for the sake of “free speech?” If you’re answer to this question is yes, then don’t bother replying anymore because it’s a waste of time! 
 

P.S. Intentionally enraging them, which is exactly what Charlie Hebdo does, is like playing with fire, whether you can get that through your head doesn’t change the fact, as a matter of fact, it’s actually worse because by now they know perfectly well that people will die every time they publish that utterly and completely unnecessary piece of <deleted>! In my opinion the guy who gave the okay for this cartoon to be released is directly responsible for their deaths because if he hadn’t released it, they wouldn’t have died! 

 

Yawn.

None of this make any of the analogies you suggested any more appropriate. That's the trouble with these, they rarely fit well - especially with regard to complex situations.

 

I get it that you think placing curbs on freedom of speech (to begin with....) is the way forward to avoid issues with extreme fanatics. My take is that you give them this, they'll push for something else. There's no end to it. Comes down to where the line is drawn - not necessarily with regard to specific instances, but on the level of principal.

 

As for your last point, I think it ought to be possible to try and sue on such grounds. Doubt the courts would not dismiss it, though.

 

Following your reasoning, the magazine's editor is responsible, because he should have known better and had a choice. Apparently, this does not hold with regard to the actual killer - which essentially gets a free pass on the grounds that he's a religious fanatic. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Morch]

10 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

Nothing is going to change the Muslim mindset ,you can see what a few silly words about their prophet has set off around the world and their reaction to them,i remember the days in my old home town where there were no mosques ,no imams ,and most of them dressed like us and in many ways were fairly integrated ,times long gone ,now muslims on the whole cannot integrate ,nothing can be done ,eventually we will either have a war with them or just let them take over ,thankfully i will never see the outcome .

 

Religions, religious movements and associated ideas evolve over time. Christianity today is not quite what it used to be in the past. Given that Islam started out more than 600 years after Christianity, it's not surprising that it has not mellowed down quite as much. But you go about the world, in Muslim countries and elsewhere - and there are different kinds of Muslims, different ways of belief, differing levels of how strict things are adhered to. Not saying change is around the corner, or even on the next block, though.

 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

I honestly fail to see how Charlie Hebdo not publishing cartoons that make fun of Islam will lead to the establishment of sharia law in France! Essentially all they’re asking for is to be respectful of their religion and not make fun of it. 

 

There are no blasphemy rules in France. The magazine publishes such cartoons bashing pretty much all religions. Only followers of Islam, as far as I'm aware of, loss it and kill people over this. Why should Islam be treated differently than other religions?

[Opl]

2 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

I honestly fail to see how Charlie Hebdo not publishing cartoons that make fun of Islam will lead to the establishment of sharia law in France! Essentially all they’re asking for is to be respectful of their religion and not make fun of it. 

These are people are so used to the Authoritarianism  that " you know what I'm talking about " is , they believe Macron has authority over Charlie Hebdo publications .. 

 

[Susco]

I wonder when Hamilton and his ilk gonna start kneeling for these victims at the start of the F1 race

[Susco]

3 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

I honestly fail to see how Charlie Hebdo not publishing cartoons that make fun of Islam will lead to the establishment of sharia law in France! Essentially all they’re asking for is to be respectful of their religion and not make fun of it. 

 

I read in another thread about an Arab book fair in Sweden be terminated for anti Semitic  texts

[simple1]

7 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The Arab Spring was many things, and on more than one instance and juncture, was hijacked by other interests and forces pretty alien to the notions of democracy and freedom. I doubt that had some of these uprisings been 'successful', the result would have been all that great - locally, regionally and internationally.

 

As for relevant military forces being supplied by the West - the Arab Spring, as far as I recall, was 'happening' in Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Libya, Bahrain and Yemen(?). Two of these were obviously not dependent on Western arms. Other than that, I don't think that in most cases the full military might of relevant forces was brought to bear, so not sure the argument got much going for it anyway. More to do with political support (tacit or other), probably.

 

My comments were broad in nature, there will always be country specific exceptions. When there are Western leaders encouraging demonstrations / uprising within dictatorships one can anticipate armed crushing of those demonstration, no doubt assisted by surveillance and other  technology supplied by the West, systemic torture of those arrested and executions. Does the West accept any responsibility whatsoever for those murdered / tortured and so on - nope. Ayslum seeker quotas are being severely cut back, welcomed by members of this forum (in summary sod off and die). IMO it is the height of cynical posturing to encourage resistance, but only minimal support for those seeking to escape the cruelties of the dictatorships. 

[kingdong]

19 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

My comments were broad in nature, there will always be country specific exceptions. When there are Western leaders encouraging demonstrations / uprising within dictatorships one can anticipate armed crushing of those demonstration, no doubt assisted by surveillance and other  technology supplied by the West, systemic torture of those arrested and executions. Does the West accept any responsibility whatsoever for those murdered / tortured and so on - nope. Ayslum seeker quotas are being severely cut back, welcomed by members of this forum (in summary sod off and die). IMO it is the height of cynical posturing to encourage resistance, but only minimal support for those seeking to escape the cruelties of the dictatorships. 

A highly charged and emotive post and make no error,the west are not the worlds policemen nor do,es any "refugee" or economic migrant have the right to expect a western country to provide citizenship,if a country do,es like germany did when merkel stated all migrants are welcome here,then expect the rest of the eu to " burden the responsibility "of what her actions were.asylum seekers quotas being severely cut back? don,t you think this could be due to the present financial catastrophe caused by covid? In the meantime it would appear you,re a very compassionate gentleman and am sure you could personally contribute more to this scenario than telling the rest of us what we should be doing.after all none of this social housing,health care,education,etc etc is free,i.e you don,t get owt for nowt,perhaps you could contact alan lineker and silly,sorry lilly allen who both are extremely vocal on this subject,all the best.

[pacovl46]

11 hours ago, kingdong said:

You answered your own question.

You guys just don’t want to get it, do you? 
 

So let me make myself crystal clear: the lives of innocent people are way more important than Hebdo’s right to make fun of Islam! 
 

It’s completely and utterly unnecessary for them to publish these cartoons! 
 

They intentionally publish them to enrage the Islamic world and in the process people get killed. 

[pacovl46]

9 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Yawn.

None of this make any of the analogies you suggested any more appropriate. That's the trouble with these, they rarely fit well - especially with regard to complex situations.

 

I get it that you think placing curbs on freedom of speech (to begin with....) is the way forward to avoid issues with extreme fanatics. My take is that you give them this, they'll push for something else. There's no end to it. Comes down to where the line is drawn - not necessarily with regard to specific instances, but on the level of principal.

 

As for your last point, I think it ought to be possible to try and sue on such grounds. Doubt the courts would not dismiss it, though.

 

Following your reasoning, the magazine's editor is responsible, because he should have known better and had a choice. Apparently, this does not hold with regard to the actual killer - which essentially gets a free pass on the grounds that he's a religious fanatic. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Mate, you seriously need to take some reading comprehension classes because I’ve never said that the actual killers should not be held responsible for their heinous crimes! Stop putting words in my mouth! 

Edited November 4, 2020 by pacovl46

[pacovl46]

8 hours ago, Morch said:

 

There are no blasphemy rules in France. The magazine publishes such cartoons bashing pretty much all religions. Only followers of Islam, as far as I'm aware of, loss it and kill people over this. Why should Islam be treated differently than other religions?

BECAUSE IT GETS INNOCENT PEOPLE KILLED!!! 
 

Why is this so hard to understand?! 

[kingdong]

1 hour ago, pacovl46 said:

You guys just don’t want to get it, do you? 
 

So let me make myself crystal clear: the lives of innocent people are way more important than Hebdo’s right to make fun of Islam! 
 

It’s completely and utterly unnecessary for them to publish these cartoons! 
 

They intentionally publish them to enrage the Islamic world and in the process people get killed. 

i think its you that just dosen,t get it Why should innocent people have to walk around on eggshells in fear from guests in their own country? in the west living in free societies,a free press and a free speech are bastions of said free societies,if guests are unable to accept this perhaps they should consider settling elsewhere,i don,t recollect any script writers of monty python recieving death threats in their time.

[luckyluke]

1 hour ago, pacovl46 said:

BECAUSE IT GETS INNOCENT PEOPLE KILLED!!! 
 

Why is this so hard to understand?! 

 

Assuming the next demand of these psychopath Muslims would be :

Stop  go to church, or...

Should the Christian community concede ?

or

Women should not wear shorts and sleeveless tops, or...

Should women concede ?

 

It seems that you consider the publication of cartoons as provocative.

 

Would continuing to go to church, and continuing to wear shorts and sleeveless tops be provocative as well ?

 

Or do you have a list of what you consider as not to be done,

and what becomes really too much as demand from those psychopath Muslims ?

[simple1]

2 hours ago, kingdong said:

A highly charged and emotive post and make no error,the west are not the worlds policemen nor do,es any "refugee" or economic migrant have the right to expect a western country to provide citizenship,if a country do,es like germany did when merkel stated all migrants are welcome here,then expect the rest of the eu to " burden the responsibility "of what her actions were.asylum seekers quotas being severely cut back? don,t you think this could be due to the present financial catastrophe caused by covid? In the meantime it would appear you,re a very compassionate gentleman and am sure you could personally contribute more to this scenario than telling the rest of us what we should be doing.after all none of this social housing,health care,education,etc etc is free,i.e you don,t get owt for nowt,perhaps you could contact alan lineker and silly,sorry lilly allen who both are extremely vocal on this subject,all the best.

 

Economic asylum seekers are not mentioned in my post, I have never suggested economic asylum seeker they have right of entry to any country, nor are they granted refugee status by any country I know of.

 

People such as you always misrepresent Merkel's stance, she was not offering refuge to all who may come, she was assisting another EU country, Greece, who were overwhelmed by asylum seekers, and all who entered the EU had to be vetted. Unfortunately the ongoing issues for deportation of rejected asylum seekers, in all EU countries, is insufficient govt to govt agreements and resources.

 

Cutbacks of asylum seeker quotas are political, not financially based.

 

Again it is impossible for me to tell you what to do, I am expressing opinion on government policies, so kindly cease the farcical personal comments. 

 

 

[Thorgal]

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

i think its you that just dosen,t get it Why should innocent people have to walk around on eggshells in fear from guests in their own country? in the west living in free societies,a free press and a free speech are bastions of said free societies,if guests are unable to accept this perhaps they should consider settling elsewhere,i don,t recollect any script writers of monty python recieving death threats in their time.

 

From a theological POV it’s not allowed in sunni Islam to make pictures of Prophets.

To make caricatures and ridiculing cartoons of religious symbols and prophets is blasphemy.

 

From a legal POV it’s not allowed to incite hate through blasphemy.

The hate message(s) as such don’t need to be detailed in the cartoons. The response from public opinion may not result in hate speech or inciting hate or agression.

Even a good lawyer can file the controversial cartoons as anti-semitism.

 

 

 

[Susco]

4 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

You guys just don’t want to get it, do you? 
 

So let me make myself crystal clear: the lives of innocent people are way more important than Hebdo’s right to make fun of Islam! 
 

It’s completely and utterly unnecessary for them to publish these cartoons! 
 

They intentionally publish them to enrage the Islamic world and in the process people get killed. 

 

So what if the Jews also should start killing innocent Muslims for their anti-Semitic texts in their books on the Malmö book fair?

 

You missed that post, or you think those texts are not an issue?

[Thorgal]

25 minutes ago, Susco said:

 

So what if the Jews also should start killing innocent Muslims for their anti-Semitic texts in their books on the Malmö book fair?

 

You missed that post, or you think those texts are not an issue?

 

There was only 1 anti-Semitic book at the Malmo book fair.

 

The book was written by a non-Muslim writer.

The book fair was named the Arab Book fair. Arabisation and Islamisation are different subjects.

 

You bring up a subject that is off topic.