Sin Sod For Gays? Mate Price.

[ProThaiExpat]

bruceboy: While there may not be too much of a push for same-sex marriage from Thai society now, as Thailand becomes more westernized every day, the gay community might start pushing for it, as we see in the 3rd sex push for inclusion in the constitution.

My point, while perhaps not well articulated, is that the Immigration Department will be faced, in time, with many overseas legally married same-sex couples applying for extensions of visas in order to live here long term and that may be an impelling force.

In the U.S., while equal rights in immigration for same-sex couples legislation has been in the "hopper" every year for five years, this year there may be a chance of passage in a Democrat controlled congress. Whether GWB vetoes it or not is another issue.

I don't know Australian history well enough to know the answer, but their liberal immigration policy for same-sex partners flies in the face of Howard's staunch opposition to gay rights. Perhaps the immigration law was initially set up to allow same-sex partner immigration or was enacted before Howard came in?

Edited May 15, 2007 by ProThaiExpat

[jdinasia]

As other gay men have pointed out, it's not about paying one big lump sum at a ceremony, or about showing off. It's becoming a member of the extended family, of being accepted into that family, and of 'paying your dues' to the family. I've gone to family dinners that didn't cost me anything (except the bottle of diet cola that we brought), and sat there for hours without saying or understanding much. I'm not rich back home, but I'm a rich man here, and I'd have a black heart if I didn't let the 'sisters-in-law' share the big outdoor, covered kitchen and dining area at the home that I rent. Those sisters visited me when I was in the hospital. It's an honor to be a member of a Thai family. I'm paying for my own family to have a reunion in Ireland in a few weeks, for a wedding. Am I obligated to give the bride and groom a nice present? Yup.

Well said, PB. It is amazing how many farangs live here and never understand the people or their culture.

What amazes me is that folks are so ready to generalize about whole populations ..... <both Thai and their partners>

Yes ..... I haven't paid out.

No ..... You shouldn't pay out.

Yes this is a topic about Sin Sod .... guys don't receive Sin Sod ... period!

I guess that the guys that are involved with someone FAR younger than themselves and from a poor upcountry family are going to end up spending money on the family, But you need to think about the concepts involved here. Sin Sod is the social security for a thai wife and her kids ... paid by a Thai man .... <and sometimes farang men> It would be demeaning <face-losing> for a Thai man to rec' a direct payment of sinsod.

[ProfessorNiceGuy]

Maybe there should be a discussion of who is the top and who is the bottom to figure out who pays who ?

[dukkha]

Could be confusion with versatile couples...

[Krub]

The Top might be at the receiving end

[popshirt]

Now we're finally getting somewhere with this thread!

[dukkha]

As long as it is not totally unravelled.............could be messy...!

[ProfessorNiceGuy]

Guess the OP will have some hard decisions to make...........

[John_Rambo]

This is one of the most ridiculous threads i've ever read on this forum. I've been biting my tongue for a while, but now feel compelled to speak. Most of the contributors seem completely oblivious to what Sin Sot actually is. The only one who seems to be on the correct page is jdinasia.

How on earth would anyone get the idea that there is any sort of legitimate traditional precedence for giving Sin Sot to the family of a male partner? The mind boggles.

Chucking his old dear a few thousand baht here and there when she requests it, has nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of Sin Sot.

[jdinasia]

This is one of the most ridiculous threads i've ever read on this forum. I've been biting my tongue for a while, but now feel compelled to speak. Most of the contributors seem completely oblivious to what Sin Sot actually is. The only one who seems to be on the correct page is jdinasia.

How on earth would anyone get the idea that there is any sort of legitimate traditional precedence for giving Sin Sot to the family of a male partner? The mind boggles.

Chucking his old dear a few thousand baht here and there when she requests it, has nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of Sin Sot.

while in essence you are right <and yes I tried and managed NOT to make a joke outta the name ...> John_Rambo ... SinSot as discussed 99% of the time on TV.com is not traditional

[peter991]

A quick basic history lesson here - much abbreviated (please correct my mistakes - this is my reading of it): When the Americans decended on Thailand for their R & R and discovered Thailand - the fishing village of Pattaya in Thailand changed to accommodate the Americans.

Poor young women found they could make a month's wages in one night entertaining these guys. Word quickly spread and a thriving enterprise sprang up (bars and bar workers). The newly rich young ladies bought themselves fancy clothes and the like and helped out their families with some of their new wealth.

Not to be outdone - many of the 'better looking' young men decided to emulate the ladies - dressed in women's clothing - and made the trek to Pattaya.

Before long, they too were making a great living and sending home money to their family.

When a (straight) farang marries a Thai lady - he is taking away an important part of the family's income.

It's the same when a (gay) farang finds himself a Thai guy and a relationship develops.

Remember - with the exception of some Government departments - there is NO social security - no old age pensions, no unemployment benefit for Thai people.

It is only natural that parents of a Thai person do not want their standard of living to drop - hence Sin Sod.

Peter

Edited May 20, 2007 by peter991

[jumnien]

I had no idea the Americans were so involved in the evolution of traditional Thai culture. Thank buddha for history lessons.

[Krub]

I had no idea the Americans were so involved in the evolution of traditional Thai culture. Thank buddha for history lessons.

Americans have and are very much involved in the evolution of all the countries they decide to take a liking to.

[Krub]

A quick basic history lesson here - much abbreviated (please correct my mistakes - this is my reading of it): When the Americans decended on Thailand for their R & R and discovered Thailand - the fishing village of Pattaya in Thailand changed to accommodate the Americans.

Poor young women found they could make a month's wages in one night entertaining these guys. Word quickly spread and a thriving enterprise sprang up (bars and bar workers). The newly rich young ladies bought themselves fancy clothes and the like and helped out their families with some of their new wealth.

Not to be outdone - many of the 'better looking' young men decided to emulate the ladies - dressed in women's clothing - and made the trek to Pattaya.

Before long, they too were making a great living and sending home money to their family.

When a (straight) farang marries a Thai lady - he is taking away an important part of the family's income.

It's the same when a (gay) farang finds himself a Thai guy and a relationship develops.

Remember - with the exception of some Government departments - there is NO social security - no old age pensions, no unemployment benefit for Thai people.

It is only natural that parents of a Thai person do not want their standard of living to drop - hence Sin Sod.

Peter

Very narrow view of Sin Sod as it existed and was the way of doing things much before ( I imagine) the USA was not even thought of.

Having said that It is a very down to earth description of how it is preceived on the ground where it matters

Edited May 20, 2007 by Krub

[crocken]

Just because you don't like something doesn't then mean that you are intolerant of those who do. I wonder why memebers assume this. If someone wants to give gifts/money whatever to their partner's family to flaunt in front of others, as some members have said they do, then that's up to them. If they feel that's the right way to do things because that's the way it's always been done then good for them. If they don't feel the need to question it or just accept it then good for them. But please don't assume I can't respect those who wish to do this even though I think it's vulgar and wouldn't do it myself. Giving is a good deed but giving for “FACE” is different and a worthless act because the motives are all wrong.

So I disagree and the “I love Thailand and all things Thai” brigade is out in force and anyone who says something to the contrary is intolerant and a Thai basher. Therefore certain replies to my post are of course predictable. When are people going to learn that disagreeing with someone or something doesn't mean one cannot accept it or their point of view?

You see their assumptions are way off the mark. Yes live and let live. Yes we all have viewpoints on different things. This is a forum about expressing them.

I don't agree with arranged marriages and the caste system .So, am I intolerant of Indian culture? Those who wish to go down that path can do so if they wish, it's up to them. People make choices which are right for them. I don't agree with sacrificing animals for some ritual/ custom. I don't agree with bullfighting. Is that not a Spanish custom? So you assume I hate Spanish people because they love it and I'm so intolerant of them? What about male and female circumcision? That's part of Muslim culture. If I disagree with that am I anti Muslim?

Sin Sod is a custom which I don't agree with. It happens to be a Thai custom. Some foreigners have been denied marriage because they wouldn't pay the asking price to their future wife's parents. Shouldn't the fact that they love one another be enough for the parents? How come money came into the equation? It seems yet another dated custom which is slowly dying out as many others have.

I have a friend who built a house for his partner in his village. It was done purely for the love of this guy and not to show off to the rest of the village. Whether it is seen by the Thais as face and something to show off is up to them but I know he did it for love.

Some people give to their partner's family so they could show off and they know this when they give the gifts. I questioned this act and called it vulgar but that doesn't make me intolerant of anyone or Thai people. They did what you felt was right and I simply disagreed.

Those who wish to give sin sod should go for it. You will do whatever you feel is right for you in your own unique situation.

You keep beating the drum about Sin Sod just being a way for Thai people to show off. How did you come to this conclusion? The examples that I have given about what my Sin Sod is used for are normal everyday needs. Do you buy gifts for your girlfriend's/boyfriend's immediate family on special occasions like birthdays? Do you help them out in times of need? This is being a responsible member of your partner's family. If you don't do this, I'm sure the members of your partner's family consider you to be a cold and cheap farang. You can live in a country without agreeing with all aspects of the native culture. That is your right. But get your reasoning right...Sin Sod is not just given for "face" value or for merit. You think it is foolish for us farangs to give Sin Sod to our partner's family? Who cares? I didn't ask for your permission in the first place.

thats right Farang princess you stamp your little feet and tell em.....

[jdinasia]

A quick basic history lesson here - much abbreviated (please correct my mistakes - this is my reading of it): When the Americans decended on Thailand for their R & R and discovered Thailand - the fishing village of Pattaya in Thailand changed to accommodate the Americans.

Poor young women found they could make a month's wages in one night entertaining these guys. Word quickly spread and a thriving enterprise sprang up (bars and bar workers). The newly rich young ladies bought themselves fancy clothes and the like and helped out their families with some of their new wealth.

Not to be outdone - many of the 'better looking' young men decided to emulate the ladies - dressed in women's clothing - and made the trek to Pattaya.

Before long, they too were making a great living and sending home money to their family.

When a (straight) farang marries a Thai lady - he is taking away an important part of the family's income.

It's the same when a (gay) farang finds himself a Thai guy and a relationship develops.

Remember - with the exception of some Government departments - there is NO social security - no old age pensions, no unemployment benefit for Thai people.

It is only natural that parents of a Thai person do not want their standard of living to drop - hence Sin Sod.

Peter

LOL ... that would be 100% wrong ... ooops only when having to do with Thai people ... and social security

SinSod has nothing to do with foriegners much less Americans being in Thailand

[jdinasia]

A quick basic history lesson here - much abbreviated (please correct my mistakes - this is my reading of it): When the Americans decended on Thailand for their R & R and discovered Thailand - the fishing village of Pattaya in Thailand changed to accommodate the Americans.

Poor young women found they could make a month's wages in one night entertaining these guys. Word quickly spread and a thriving enterprise sprang up (bars and bar workers). The newly rich young ladies bought themselves fancy clothes and the like and helped out their families with some of their new wealth.

Not to be outdone - many of the 'better looking' young men decided to emulate the ladies - dressed in women's clothing - and made the trek to Pattaya.

Before long, they too were making a great living and sending home money to their family.

When a (straight) farang marries a Thai lady - he is taking away an important part of the family's income.

It's the same when a (gay) farang finds himself a Thai guy and a relationship develops.

Remember - with the exception of some Government departments - there is NO social security - no old age pensions, no unemployment benefit for Thai people.

It is only natural that parents of a Thai person do not want their standard of living to drop - hence Sin Sod.

Peter

Very narrow view of Sin Sod as it existed and was the way of doing things much before ( I imagine) the USA was not even thought of.

Having said that It is a very down to earth description of how it is preceived on the ground where it matters

Maybe amongst the people he is discussing in Pattaya making more in a night than ....... but not in any traditional sense or in any way that would be practiced by most Thai people.

[peter991]

Maybe amongst the people he is discussing in Pattaya making more in a night than ....... but not in any traditional sense or in any way that would be practiced by most Thai people.

This was how Sin Sod for gay people was explained to me by my Issan BF, jdinasia.: While it is common for Issan girls to be the chief provider of financial support in many homes, it is now expected that males who work in 'entertainment establishments' also provide hefty financial support.

I could go into this in depth, but I have previously sent a PM to PB who said he would prefer I didn't.

Peter

[jdinasia]

Maybe amongst the people he is discussing in Pattaya making more in a night than ....... but not in any traditional sense or in any way that would be practiced by most Thai people.

This was how Sin Sod for gay people was explained to me by my Issan BF, jdinasia.: While it is common for Issan girls to be the chief provider of financial support in many homes, it is now expected that males who work in 'entertainment establishments' also provide hefty financial support.

I could go into this in depth, but I have previously sent a PM to PB who said he would prefer I didn't.

Peter

Sending money home has nothing ..... absolutely nothing to do with SinSot. The girls working in entertainment venues wouldn't be getting SinSot either

[orchis]

Maybe amongst the people he is discussing in Pattaya making more in a night than ....... but not in any traditional sense or in any way that would be practiced by most Thai people.

This was how Sin Sod for gay people was explained to me by my Issan BF, jdinasia.: While it is common for Issan girls to be the chief provider of financial support in many homes, it is now expected that males who work in 'entertainment establishments' also provide hefty financial support.

I could go into this in depth, but I have previously sent a PM to PB who said he would prefer I didn't.

Peter

Your Bf has a future in sales or real estate.

[OxfordWill]

jdinasia seems to be the only person who is adhering to the actual traditional view of sin sot. I think you other chaps need to come up with a different phrase to express the notion of "giving" to which you adhere. Just ask a Thai.. they will laugh at the idea of sin sot being paid between two men. Not because they look down on gays, simply because the word "sin" and the word "sot" cannot be applied like this. It just cant! Sure you can pay some money to the family in what is "technically" a "sin sot" but it cannot BE "sin sot".

[jdinasia]

not technically sin sot either

[endure]

What do the words 'sin sot' mean in English? Do they translate into English?

[jdinasia]

Bride price ... and no

[endure]

Is 'bride price' their literal meaning? If not, do you know what is?

[jdinasia]

Is 'bride price' their literal meaning? If not, do you know what is?

No ... not the literal meaning ... but I'll get back with it in a bit ....

<regardless .. it is a price paid to the bride's family ... scads of threads on this>

[jdinasia]

The first step in marrying a Thai girl is to have someone approach the ladies parents to discuss the "Tong Mun" and "Sin Sod."

"Tong Mun" which means "gold engagement" is actual 24 karat gold jewelry given to the lady. This is similar to the western engagement ring, which may also be given, but will not be expected.

"Sin Sod" is the marriage price, the word "Sin" means riches, things of value. In the past it might have been farm animals, farm products, land, or some such. Now money is used as the thing of value. "Sod" is the act of storing away, or holding the "Sin". Long ago it could have been keeping the "Sin" if it was a farm animal in a secure fenced area. Now the "Sin" would be likely stored by depositing the money into a bank. The amount will vary due to several factors such as, the social status and wealth of the parents, the education, age, and beauty of the daughter. The cost of the ceremonies, parties, food, etc., will be paid by the parents using part of the Sin Sod.

from the pinned thread in the general topics forum

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=85581

while some of what the 2 'authorities' does not jibe with what i have learned <possibly due to regional practices> they have a really good bead on the topic

[OxfordWill]

The key is the associations the term carries; ethnographically at least it must include a "female"

[peter991]

The key is the associations the term carries; ethnographically at least it must include a "female"

Why?

Sin sod applies to gay relationships - because I 'removed' the family's chief source of imcome by starting a relationship with my Thai BF. The 'sin sod' or whatever you want to call it is basically the 'bride price' to pay back the parents for the expense of raising my BF and the fact he would no longer be able to provide for the family in years to come.

Peter

[farang prince]

The key is the associations the term carries; ethnographically at least it must include a "female"

Why?

Sin sod applies to gay relationships - because I 'removed' the family's chief source of imcome by starting a relationship with my Thai BF. The 'sin sod' or whatever you want to call it is basically the 'bride price' to pay back the parents for the expense of raising my BF and the fact he would no longer be able to provide for the family in years to come.

Peter

Obviously we are having a taffy pull over the traditional definition of Sin Sod and the way gay couples deal with their version of Sin Sod. Suffice to say, the traditional definition of Sin Sod does not apply to gay couples because gay marriages are not recognized in Thailand. I accept that. At the same time, I also accept that if a farang partner in a gay relationship wants to provide finances to his gay Thai partner or his partner's family, then that is his business. I have no idea why some of you posters who are in gay relationships here in Thailand feel like you have the right to be judgemental. It is none of your damned business. End of subject.