Sin Sod For Gays? Mate Price.

[jdinasia]

The key is the associations the term carries; ethnographically at least it must include a "female"

Why?

Sin sod applies to gay relationships - because I 'removed' the family's chief source of imcome by starting a relationship with my Thai BF. The 'sin sod' or whatever you want to call it is basically the 'bride price' to pay back the parents for the expense of raising my BF and the fact he would no longer be able to provide for the family in years to come.

Peter

Again ... a situation with a woman working in the 'entertainment' are would not be eligible for sinsod too. I am sure your BF could have a job and send money home Peter ... but it's not your responsibility. Even when that in fact does happen with str8 couples it is not part of sinsod.

Men in Thailand don't get sin sod ... and it would diminish them as men to do so. Nobody is saying that you can't pay and pay and pay and pay til you no longer have the financial resources to pay anymore! That is everyone's choice!

Farangprince .... none of whose business? The people responding to the thread? If you think that ... why respond?

Edited May 21, 2007 by jdinasia

[Krub]

Can we stay on the subject of

Sin Sod for gays ?

[ProThaiExpat]

"Part of this is about semantics .. you just can't use the Thai word SinSot for this. Then note that nobo someone can or cannot spend their own money however they want! It doesn't matter to me if someone pays their ladyboy to be their gf/bf or not! I wouldn't define that as a healthy relationship but that is me! Not anyone else (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) "

I am an old purist who abhors the notion that "usage" can morph wrong words into the dictionary. However, as most of the teachers in this forum will tell you, that is the way language changes and Thai is no exception.

If falang gay people in Thailand, who have long term relationships with Thais, choose to call their "bride price" to their mates family, sin sot, then eventually that term, at least among gays, will mean the money given to the mates family, as peter maintains. Even with straights, when a gay man speaks of sin sot to his mates family, I doubt there is any misunderstanding.

While I admire jdinasia's attempts to keep Thai customs and language pure, usage morphs language all the time and most gays when they hear someone speak of sit sot in relationship to their thai mate, all understand.. Isn't that the purpose of language, to be understood?

Edited May 21, 2007 by ProThaiExpat

[jdinasia]

"Part of this is about semantics .. you just can't use the Thai word SinSot for this. Then note that nobo someone can or cannot spend their own money however they want! It doesn't matter to me if someone pays their ladyboy to be their gf/bf or not! I wouldn't define that as a healthy relationship but that is me! Not anyone else (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) "

I am an old purist who abhors the notion that "usage" can morph wrong words into the dictionary. However, as most of the teachers in this forum will tell you, that is the way language changes and Thai is no exception.

If gay people in Thailand, who have long term relationships, choose to call their "bride price" to their mates family, sin sot, then eventually that term, at least among gays, will mean the money given to the mates family, as peter maintains. Even with straights, when a gay man speaks of sin sot to his mates family, I doubt there is any misunderstanding.

While I admire jdinasia's attempts to keep Thai customs and language pure, usage morphs language all the time and most gays when they hear someone speak of sit sot in relationship to their thai mate, all understand.. Isn't that the purpose of language, to be understood?

But it won't be understood .... unless you mean amongst gay readers of ThaiVisa.com NOT amongst 'gays' ... continueing payments to the family would never be considered SinSod ... I am SURE you have read the scads of posts in the general section about this. Again ... read the pinned thread in Genral ... or preveious threads .. "how much should I Pay my BF" etc!

Walk into any gay bar in BKK and mention SinSod to a gay guy (Thai) and see what happens! You MIGHT get a big grin with $$ signs in the eyes from a FEW guys in Silom or Suriwongse but from anyone else all you will get is a blank stare .. then outright laughter when it dawns on them what you mean! (well maybe not the laughter to your face ... they might understand that you are not joking and wait to laugh when they tell their friends!

What is being described here is as far from SinSod as is possible to get. Again ... pay what you will/think you need to etc! but for goodness sake do NOT believe that this is a part of Thai culture

[PeaceBlondie]

Four posts have been deleted. Keep your opinions about each others' arrogances to yourselves, please, and stay on topic, of course.

[John_Rambo]

Any moment now, the penny is going to drop for Peter that his boyfriend has been inventing and redefining traditional cultural practices to extract money from him....

[Krub]

Any moment now, the penny is going to drop for Peter that his boyfriend has been inventing and redefining traditional cultural practices to extract money from him....

Peter gave us an example of something that can be an equivalent to a Sin Sod for a gay couple.

He was not lured nor forced to pay anything and unless I am mistaken has never said that he was asked for an equivalent of Sin Sod by his BF or his BF's family.

The OP asked if there was a Sin Sod for gays

It is pretty obvious that there is no such thing as Sin Sod for gays but there can be something similar to Sin Sod in meaning, form and purpose.

[jdinasia]

Any moment now, the penny is going to drop for Peter that his boyfriend has been inventing and redefining traditional cultural practices to extract money from him....

Peter gave us an example of something that can be an equivalent to a Sin Sod for a gay couple.

He was not lured nor forced to pay anything and unless I am mistaken has never said that he was asked for an equivalent of Sin Sod by his BF or his BF's family.

The OP asked if there was a Sin Sod for gays

It is pretty obvious that there is no such thing as Sin Sod for gays but there can be something similar to Sin Sod in meaning, form and purpose.

Ummm no. Nothing similar for gays or at least not for gay Thais. Peter has already built a house on family land. THAT in str8 circles and dealing with a partner in the entertainment* biz would be more than fair if it were a female of 19 and an older man.

It would be nice to come up with the concept that this was in some way a normal traditional thing amongst gay men in Thailand. It isn't. well.... at least between Thais it isn't

People have a right to live their lives however they want! I don't think anyone has any issues with what is happening as described here. Having read some of Peter's story as posted in this sub-forum <just read it today> I do believe he is being 'taken for a ride', but that's just my opinion. Only time will tell for sure!

[FranklyNoMore]

Obviously we are having a taffy pull over the traditional definition of Sin Sod and the way gay couples deal with their version of Sin Sod. Suffice to say, the traditional definition of Sin Sod does not apply to gay couples because gay marriages are not recognized in Thailand. I accept that. At the same time, I also accept that if a farang partner in a gay relationship wants to provide finances to his gay Thai partner or his partner's family, then that is his business. I have no idea why some of you posters who are in gay relationships here in Thailand feel like you have the right to be judgemental. It is none of your damned business. End of subject.

Obviously people are making comments and not judgements. I have no idea why you are thinking this way!

One of course can pay what they want to their Ton, Lek or Ladyboy but it isn't a Sin Sod.

I wonder if ladyboys demand a Sin Sod. Now that would be as ridiculous as a sin sod for gays.

[ProThaiExpat]

In the past five years, I have read many threads discussing sin sot, bride price, allowances for g/fs & b/fs etc and every time the subject comes up, there are always virulent posters who beat the drum that they wouldn't pay a dime and anyone that does is bonkers, is being taken, yada yada yada.

Just because a poster ends his virulent post against the practice with "you can do what you want" and opines "not for him" doesn't make the nature of the post any less bigoted.

[jdinasia]

In the past five years, I have read many threads discussing sin sot, bride price, allowances for g/fs & b/fs etc and every time the subject comes up, there are always virulent posters who beat the drum that they wouldn't pay a dime and anyone that does is bonkers, is being taken, yada yada yada.

Just because a poster ends his virulent post against the practice with "you can do what you want" and opines "not for him" doesn't make the nature of the post any less bigoted.

Bigoted? Bigoted against whom?

My point here is that sinsot is not the right concept at all for what is being described here ... It never will be. It isn't usual or part of Thai culture.

Would I PAY for a BF? hel_l no! But I know that if I had one that was from a lower socio-economic scale I'd be paying for all the entertainment etc that went with MY lifestyle. It was that way with my 2nd BF <he was 45 and rich, and I was 19 and in Uni> He didn't pay my rent etc etc ... But we went on some great vacations etc. He paid for those .... why? If he didn't he would not have been able to do what he wanted with whom he wanted to do it

Yes my experiences in Thailand are not 'typical', I have always understood that! I will stand with ... my standard dating rules for thailand ... the foremost is .. don't date someone here you wouldn't date at home!

[FranklyNoMore]

In the past five years, I have read many threads discussing sin sot, bride price, allowances for g/fs & b/fs etc and every time the subject comes up, there are always virulent posters who beat the drum that they wouldn't pay a dime and anyone that does is bonkers, is being taken, yada yada yada. Just because a poster ends his virulent post against the practice with "you can do what you want" and opines "not for him" doesn't make the nature of the post any less bigoted.

In the past five years, I have read many threads discussing sin sot, bride price, allowances for g/fs & b/fs etc and every time the subject comes up, there are always virulent posters who beat the drum that all things Thai are so fantastic and with their heads in the clouds or somewhere else they fail to see how ridiculous some things really are.

I wouldnt pay a sinsod to a boy or girl, if I were that way inclined, or their parents, that's my choice. If you want to that's your choice. I couldn't careless how you spend your money and that also doesnt mean I think you are bonkers. Just because someone disagrees with your choices doesnt make them a bigot does it now. And just because it's a Thai way or custom doesnt mean it's a good thing and that I have to agree with it and that also doesn't mean I have to leave the country either. Don't you know, one can accept something without agreeing with it.

[thaicurious]

i've never been to thailand but am considering future visits and then possible residence there if i like it as much as i think i will. i am retired early and not particularly attracted to younger but seems most guys my age who keep in shape chase the kids so i'm giving the hunt just another few years before i throw in the towel.

i could not imagine starting a relationship with someone from southeast asia or the west for that matter without being able to help my partner's loved ones should the need arise and without, of course, jeopardizing my own financial security. i am family oriented and would consider his family my own. but that's just me and i just mention so that i come to the table with my cards showing.

i'd never heard of the term sin sot before this forum discussion. i find it fascinating and for the most part practical. but i have a question which i do not believe has been addressed yet.

if sin sot is set up so that a family does not lose benefit of its wage-earner (which makes sense to me), is such a system dependent upon the assumption that today's wage-earner will be beneficiary of the next generation? because it sounds rather heterosexual-specific.

if the child keeps sending money home to mom & pop, instead of investing that money into his own retirement fund then what happens to that child after mom & pop have spent all his money, after he is too old to work and does not have children of his own to send him money in his old age? without producing grandchildren, how does this work?

[cm-happy]

i've never been to thailand but am considering future visits and then possible residence there if i like it as much as i think i will. i am retired early and not particularly attracted to younger but seems most guys my age who keep in shape chase the kids so i'm giving the hunt just another few years before i throw in the towel.

i could not imagine starting a relationship with someone from southeast asia or the west for that matter without being able to help my partner's loved ones should the need arise and without, of course, jeopardizing my own financial security. i am family oriented and would consider his family my own. but that's just me and i just mention so that i come to the table with my cards showing.

i'd never heard of the term sin sot before this forum discussion. i find it fascinating and for the most part practical. but i have a question which i do not believe has been addressed yet.

if sin sot is set up so that a family does not lose benefit of its wage-earner (which makes sense to me), is such a system dependent upon the assumption that today's wage-earner will be beneficiary of the next generation? because it sounds rather heterosexual-specific.

if the child keeps sending money home to mom & pop, instead of investing that money into his own retirement fund then what happens to that child after mom & pop have spent all his money, after he is too old to work and does not have children of his own to send him money in his old age? without producing grandchildren, how does this work?

An excellent 1st post Thaiscurious.

Your last paragraph is very thought compelling and is perhaps worthy of a separate thead.

I've never thought about that, weak minded &lt;deleted&gt; that I am. But perhaps some of the self styled "experts" might want to comment on the Thais way of handling this matter.

As for myself, my sweetie Pie is remembered in my will to help see him thru the lean years when I'm no longer around. As long as he doesnt piss it away. A trust fund perhaps might solve that problem or even an annuity. I'll have to look into it to guarantee him a trouble free (financially) and secure old age.

[ProThaiExpat]

Yes, the world is filled with "givers" and "takers" and sin sot or helping the extended family to live a better life is what "givers" do.

thaicurious your question is a very good one, often ignored by falang in Thailand. I have heard it said that when anyone "marries well", in the West or in Thailand, what is wrong with them "feathering their nest" along the way in a long term relationship with another that is substantially richer than they or their family is.

Unlike you, I don't come from a family oriented enviroment so do not have the tugs on my heart in a helping mode as many do. However, when I can see how a little help, here and there, can make my love so happy and raise "face" for his family in their village, it can be a joyful experience. Over the years, the sum has added up to an appreciable sum and yet I have not really missed it, since I draw the line at sharing my pension, not my capital.

Old age security must be addressed with ones mate and to fail to do so in a long term relationship, in a "givers" mode, is not acceptable. I do know that there is considerable concern about that among Thais who join with falang in LTRs. However, since my house and land are in my mates name, as is the two cars and a joint bank account, which will be funded upon my death, my mate is provided for if I should pass on, as most in western cultures do for their loved ones.

It is an unfortunate fact of life that employment for Thais over 40 is very problematic if they change jobs and are not in managerial positions. Ensuring social security for your loved one in LTRs is an issue affecting all, in my view. A falang neighbor I know who is still working and making a very good wage, provided for his third Thai wife by giving her gold, building a house for her parents, buying her a car and putting the house and land in here name and giving her one million baht for her own account all within the first year of his marriage. He walked away from all of his joint assets in his prior marriages. He has lived in Thailand for 15 or more years, owned businesses here and knows the country well. Will enjoy the negative comments some may choose to make about his "generosity" and how they wouldn't think of doing such a thing.

Edited May 23, 2007 by ProThaiExpat

[jumnien]

I wish there were the concept of sin sod for gay men in the US. My Dad was with a lovely man for 17 years when I was a kid. He was with another lovely man for 8 years before that guy overdosed. His present boyfriend is an "artist", which pretty much sums it all up. He is obnoxious and pretty much worthless. If my Dad had had to pay a lot of money to the guy's mother before he moved in 8 years ago, maybe my Dad would have thought twice. Would have saved him a ton of money and grief in the long run and he wouldn't have lost all his lifelong friends over it.

[jdinasia]

Sorry .... but the concept that that this is about replacing the income of a wage-earner is erroneous.

SinSod has been described that way many times but it just isn't true If it were then in STR8 society in Thailand it would be a payment to the man's family and not the woman's family.

TPE ....

why would anyone care about a friend of yours that was generous ...?? Not knowing the situation in particular though it is impossoble to know if he was just being nice or not

[cm-happy]

Sorry .... but the concept that that this is about replacing the income of a wage-earner is erroneous.

SinSod has been described that way many times but it just isn't true If it were then in STR8 society in Thailand it would be a payment to the man's family and not the woman's family.

why would anyone care about a friend of yours that was generous ...?? Not knowing the situation in particular though it is impossoble to know if he was just being nice or not

You try to imply that your knowledge is the FINAL AUTHORITY on this Thais related subject.

But what are your credentials on the subject thread?

Are you a professional anthropologist (Socialologist specifically)?. If you are then perhaps you could lend some credence to your replies by citing your published papers or ethnographs that you may have authored and published that are Thais related.

[jdinasia]

Sorry .... but the concept that that this is about replacing the income of a wage-earner is erroneous.

SinSod has been described that way many times but it just isn't true If it were then in STR8 society in Thailand it would be a payment to the man's family and not the woman's family.

why would anyone care about a friend of yours that was generous ...?? Not knowing the situation in particular though it is impossoble to know if he was just being nice or not

You try to imply that your knowledge is the FINAL AUTHORITY on this Thais related subject.

But what are your credentials on the subject thread?

Are you a professional anthropologist (Socialologist specifically)?. If you are then perhaps you could lend some credence to your replies by citing your published papers or ethnographs that you may have authored and published that are Thais related.

FINAL AUTHORITY? ... no .... but I do know Thailand (and one of my areas of study IS related btw ... what is a 'socialologist'?

[jdinasia]

cm=happy ......

I know it offends some people that they can't apply some traditional meanings to what they pay out on their partners .. but there isn't

If you have partner that expects it ... well

Why not just call it what it is to you? <be that being a sucker .... buying a mate ... being good hearted ... helping your new extended family>

personally I see many cases where it is a different one of the four choices above `

[FranklyNoMore]

if the child keeps sending money home to mom & pop, instead of investing that money into his own retirement fund then what happens to that child after mom & pop have spent all his money, after he is too old to work and does not have children of his own to send him money in his old age? without producing grandchildren, how does this work?

I thought that was pretty obvious really.

You are assuming he would send every last baht back home and not save any. I doubt any decent parent would be asking for so much to be sent home. I doubt they would send more than 50%. Also he may not be an only child so his brothers and sisters would also help out and what about the extended family which may also help him in his old age.

I can see many scenarios that wouldnt leave a gay child bahtless in their old age. And of course there's always the temple to fall back on if they so wish and Bang Kae where there are homes for the elderly who have no relatives to take care of them.

So there's no real reason to worry about your Thai B/f in his old age, he'll be fine. He'll probably have 30 odd years before retirement to work, after the falang has passed, anyway seeing so many have such young b/f's.

Some people keep banging the drum about their giving and Sin Sot because they gave so much to their b/f's family for them to have face. Maybe somethings they paid for like for example a sick buffalo may in hindsight have been silly to pay for but I dont expect them to say it was. So you give, congratulations. I'm sure many on here have given, what they could when they could, to family. It's not a sin sod it's called a gift and most don't keep banging on about it cos that shows class. Those who bang on about it, give for face.

[cm-happy]

cm=happy ......

I know it offends some people that they can't apply some traditional meanings to what they pay out on their partners .. but there isn't

If you have partner that expects it ... well

Why not just call it what it is to you? <be that being a sucker .... buying a mate ... being good hearted ... helping your new extended family>

personally I see many cases where it is a different one of the four choices above `

Yes, JD I understand perfectly what you are saying.

Perhaps my choice of using sin sot, rather than dowry or some other archaic term would have been better to use or less controvertial. How would you have phrased it??

I'm not in the least bit offended but have actually applied the most traditional aspect of traditional Thais culture. DHAMMHA and applying what the Buddha has taught about GENEROSITY, which is one of the most important options that you have conveniently ommitted.

While were talking about Dhamma, I think Pia Vacca would be in order. This is Palli and roughly translates into speaking, writing softly and gently.

In reponse to your previous reply. OK Anthro 101 is in session.

As you probably know Anthropology (study of man) is divided into 3 main disciplines.

Physical Anthropology--the guys that search for hominid, remains, toosl etc to trace and date the evolution of early man (hominids).

Sociology--study of societies, klans, tribes, family groups etc and their interaction amonst themselves & others and way of life, & living.

Linguistics--study of languages, its use, spread, etymology.

Hope this helps

[jdinasia]

hmmmmm How would I phrase it?

I wouldn't! If you understood Thai culture better you'd get it that it would be demeaning for a guy to actually get a dowry I don't understand why 'dowry' would be more archaic than sin sod but at least there'd be a historical background for a man receiving one I didn't understand the 'most traditional' statement

You posed a question in the original post ... the answer is 'no' for the first paragraph and 'yes' for the second Nobody has paid sinsot and it is a str8 thing

Thanks for the ANT 101 lesson ... but what specifically is 'socialology'?

I am all in favor of being generous! Be as generous as you can be in all you do! Call it generosity! Call it being a good in-law!

<and I have been VERY careful to speak gently >

Stick around ... listen to people's stories ... you'll hear many acts of generosity ... and you'll hear many acts of piracy and blackmail! Understanding Thai culture will help avoid being a victim of the piracy/blackmail

[cm-happy]

Thanks to every one for their input.

Two schools of thought.

Those that vehemently refuse to participate or acknowledge Sin Sod, whatever form it may take.

Those that whole heartedly embrace the concept, participate regardless of motivation.

With that said---MODS PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD. Could go on longer with people arguing back and forth unproductively.

PS JD--Lets agree to disagree.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

Finally got it. Your spotting my typo of socialogist. New eye glass prescription required.

[jdinasia]

Have any gay guys here ever paid sin sod to your mates family. sin sod. as I understand it, is like a bride price paid by the groom to the brides family. Seems to be a somewhat common practice in the countryside. But I guess it could also apply if the partner is the groom instead of the other way around.

Just wondering if this is a Thai custom exclusive to the straight community or does it also sometimes apply to the gay community?

Why ask a question if you are unwilling to hear the answer that contradicts your preconcieved notions?

Again I am all in favor of appropriate generosity! Have a chat with Peter in Pvt and maybe you'll understand some more!

<<however .. this and another thread DID bring back some activity in this sub-forum>>

Edited May 24, 2007 by jdinasia

[Scott]

I'll have to admit, I am one of those who has never paid a solitary satang to the family. My partner, from day one told me, "don't give my family any money." He said that if I started it would become an expectation and he said they didn't really need money anyway.

The family is far from rich, but there's a lot of distance between them and poverty as well.

I must admit, I would have been a soft touch too. I am sure they could have milked me like a fresh Holstein Heifer!