Question re water pump and tank (reservoir)

[giddyup]

I'll try to mak this as clear as I can. I have a Mitsu water pump that only gets used when the town water is non existent, as it was today. This pump draws from an underground tank, but there is water continuously running into the tank even though there is no supply coming from the mains. Normally the tank gets topped up when the mains is working, and there is a ball valve that stops the flow when the tank is full, but at the moment there is water continuously running into the tank, and if course it never gets filled because it's just being cycled around

Question is, is this normal, because I don't recall it happening in the past.

The other thing is the pump is cycling on and off all the time even though no taps are open.

[Dumbastheycome]

Rather confusing. I can understand the setup  but  not what you are describing as is happening.

If  your pump usually draws on the "town water" in preference to the  tank unless there is  no mains  supply how is it  "cycling around" ? Is there a faulty uni-directional flow valve maybe? In trying to interpret the system I would  guess there  should  be a non  return valve on the draw pipe from the tank to the pump. If that fails  or  'leaks' the pressure drop  would explain the pump cycling  on and off as it recovers the pressure drop in the  whole system.

 

[SimpleMan555]

It sounds like your water is possibly recirculating from the Tank>Pump>Tank via an incorrectly positioned valve or similar, or maybe it is backflowing through a weak or clogged Check Valve. Do you have some pictures or a drawing of the system to help understand what you have installed?

Also, have you made any recent changes to the system or ???

 

Cheers!

[Dumbastheycome]

Again as an attempt to  understand the setup there would also be a  non return valve on the  town supply side  because  if not  when there is  no inflow from that  you would be pumping  your tank  back to the   community.

[Artisi]

A picture (sketch) tells a thousand words. 

[JAS21]

2 hours ago, SimpleMan555 said:

It sounds like your water is possibly recirculating from the Tank>Pump>Tank via an incorrectly positioned valve or similar, or maybe it is backflowing through a weak or clogged Check Valve. Do you have some pictures or a drawing of the system to help understand what you have installed?

Also, have you made any recent changes to the system or ???

 

Cheers!

I think definitely a NRV has stuck open. But without a sketch of the system it is somewhat difficult to say which one. But suspect it could be the one in the pipework that Tees into your mains supply line, that line will tee in after the NRV in the main supply pipe.. Basically as SimpleMan555 suggests

 

You could try tapping the NRV' with a hammer. I would suggest that you switch the pump off before the hammer job. 

 

I don't think it is a good idea to allow the pump to stop and start very frequently all night long although they are designed for stop/start use.

[bankruatsteve]

If your system has NRV to control "bypass", it is probably defective as others have said.  There should be either NRV or ball valve between your meter and line into house.  If ball valve, it needs to be closed for pump operation.  You are likely also pumping out through your meter into the mains.  If you don't see a valve for bypass, then you need to close valve at the meter and close valve at your tank input.  Then you need to get bypass set up properly.

[giddyup]

12 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Rather confusing. I can understand the setup  but  not what you are describing as is happening.

If  your pump usually draws on the "town water" in preference to the  tank unless there is  no mains  supply how is it  "cycling around" ? Is there a faulty uni-directional flow valve maybe? In trying to interpret the system I would  guess there  should  be a non  return valve on the draw pipe from the tank to the pump. If that fails  or  'leaks' the pressure drop  would explain the pump cycling  on and off as it recovers the pressure drop in the  whole system.

 

The pump is only utilised when there is no mains water and it then draws from the reserve tank. The rest of the time the pump is turned off. My question is why there is water still flowing into the reserve tank when there is no mains water, sorry, can't make it clearer than that.

[bankruatsteve]

2 minutes ago, giddyup said:

My question is why there is water still flowing into the reserve tank when there is no mains water, sorry, can't make it clearer than that.

The "bypass" is open.  See my post above.

[giddyup]

41 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

If your system has NRV to control "bypass", it is probably defective as others have said.  There should be either NRV or ball valve between your meter and line into house.  If ball valve, it needs to be closed for pump operation.  You are likely also pumping out through your meter into the mains.  If you don't see a valve for bypass, then you need to close valve at the meter and close valve at your tank input.  Then you need to get bypass set up properly.

If the ball is lifted inside the tank the water flow stops and the pump stops running.

[giddyup]

Here's a couple of pics. The wire is just holding up the ball to stop the water flow and stop the pump running.

Edited November 15, 2020 by giddyup

[Crossy]

"Somewhere" is a non-return valve which prevents the pump pressurising the mains and circulating back into the tank. It's stuck open.

 

With the ball valve tied up does the pump operate correctly and feed the house?

 

This is my "standard" pump drawing, the valve you are looking for is the one bottom centre of the diagram.

 

[giddyup]

18 minutes ago, Crossy said:

"Somewhere" is a non-return valve which prevents the pump pressurising the mains and circulating back into the tank. It's stuck open.

 

With the ball valve tied up does the pump operate correctly and feed the house?

 

This is my "standard" pump drawing, the valve you are looking for is the one bottom centre of the diagram.

 

Yes, the pump works correctly with the ball valve tied up. Where that non-return valve is anybody's guess. It wouldn't be part of the ball valve would it? Surely it would have to be accessible? There is also a valve that needs to be turned off before activating the pump, this is to stop any mains water coming into the tank at the same time.

Edited November 15, 2020 by giddyup

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

Yes, the pump works correctly with the ball valve tied up. Where that non-return valve is anybody's guess. It wouldn't be part of the ball valve would it? Surely it would have to be accessible?

 

No it wouldn't be be part of the ball. 10 gets you 1 it's under that concrete ???? 

 

If it's only for occasional use just leave the wire in place until the city water comes back. 

 

Alternatively call the landlord.

[giddyup]

3 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

No it wouldn't be be part of the ball. 10 gets you 1 it's under that concrete ???? 

 

If it's only for occasional use just leave the wire in place until the city water comes back. 

 

Alternatively call the landlord.

We own the house, but wouldn't the return valve be above ground level for easy access? If it was buried you'd never find it, and the guy who laid the pavers (ten years ago) was the same guy that installed the pump.

[bankruatsteve]

27 minutes ago, giddyup said:

There is also a valve that needs to be turned off before activating the pump, this is to stop any mains water coming into the tank at the same time.

My guess is that is your issue.  Does it feel "funny" or difficult to turn when open/close?  Could be corroded inside.  You don't have much room to work with for replace but suggest using unions if/when you do.

[giddyup]

2 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

My guess is that is your issue.  Does it feel "funny" or difficult to turn when open/close?  Could be corroded inside.  You don't have much room to work with for replace but suggest using unions if/when you do.

I think that valve is working correctly, because if you turn it off and don't turn on the pump, you will get no water coming out of the taps. Plus it screws down quite easily and opens easily as well.

Edited November 15, 2020 by giddyup

[bankruatsteve]

8 minutes ago, giddyup said:

I think that valve is working correctly, because if you turn it off and don't turn on the pump, you will get no water coming out of the taps. Plus it screws down quite easily and opens easily as well.

How would you know if you aren't getting mains at the moment?  If that needs to be off before turning the pump on it seems to me that it is not working.

[giddyup]

Just now, bankruatsteve said:

How would you know if you aren't getting mains at the moment?  If that needs to be off before turning the pump on it seems to me that it is not working.

Because when the mains is working (and pump turned off) if you close that valve you stop water coming out the taps.

[bankruatsteve]

7 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Because when the mains is working (and pump turned off) if you close that valve you stop water coming out the taps.

That appears to be your bypass valve and it appears to be not working.  Just sayin.

[giddyup]

Just now, bankruatsteve said:

That appears to be your bypass valve and it appears to be not working.  Just sayin.

 

1 minute ago, bankruatsteve said:

That appears to be your bypass valve and it appears to be not working.  Just sayin.

How is it "not working" if it turns off the water?  I thought it was the non-return valve that wasn't working.

[sometimewoodworker]

52 minutes ago, giddyup said:

wouldn't the return valve be above ground level for easy access? If it was buried you'd never find it, and the guy who laid the pavers (ten years ago) was the same guy that installed the pump.

TIT so why do you think that most workers here will think about what will happen in the future?
 

Why do you think that the 2 jobs are connected?

 

job 1 finished, working so forgotten about. 
job 2 (your responsibility to specifically ask about anything from job 1) you don’t ask, so job 2 completed. Anyway job 2 effects job 1 is your responsibility.
 

When my house was building I had to do the forward thinking.

Edited November 15, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[bankruatsteve]

4 minutes ago, giddyup said:

 

How is it "not working" if it turns off the water?  I thought it was the non-return valve that wasn't working.

Because your pump is cycling to the tank - which means it is going to the bypass.  Or, I totally misunderstand something.  You may not have an NRV.  BTW:  corroded valves can work one day and be defective the next.

[giddyup]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

TIT so why do you think that most workers here will think about what will happen in the future?
 

Why do you think that the 2 jobs are connected?

 

job 1 finished, working so forgotten about. 
job 2 (your responsibility to specifically ask about anything from job 1) you don’t ask, so job 2 completed. Anyway job 2 effects job 1 is your responsibility.
 

When my house was building I had to do the forward thinking.

How can you forward think on something you know nothing about? Water pumps and reserve tanks aren't common feature where I come from, so how am I supposed to know about non-return valves? I had only just moved to Thailand 10 years ago, have become a bit more savvy since then.

[sometimewoodworker]

4 minutes ago, giddyup said:

7 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

That appears to be your bypass valve and it appears to be not working.  Just sayin.

 

7 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

That appears to be your bypass valve and it appears to be not working.  Just sayin.

How is it "not working" if it turns off the water?  I thought it was the non-return valve that wasn't working.

It is not working as it should because it should be (or have as well) a NVR

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It is not working as it should because it should be (or have as well) a NVR

All I know is that when it's turned off, ie screwed down, it will shut off mains water and also stop mains water replenishing the tank. I need to be sure that it's faulty before I start cutting pvc pipes and installing a new valve, no easy job with the present set up.

[sometimewoodworker]

3 minutes ago, giddyup said:

How can you forward think on something you know nothing about? Water pumps and reserve tanks aren't common feature where I come from, so how am I supposed to know about non-return valves? I had only just moved to Thailand 10 years ago, have become a bit more savvy since then.

You have to learn about them or accept that your systems are going to work (or not) in unexpected ways at unexpected times and cost random amounts of money, time and inconvenience to fix.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

All I know is that when it's turned off, ie screwed down, it will shut off mains water and also stop mains water replenishing the tank. I need to be sure that it's faulty before I start cutting pvc pipes and installing a new valve, no easy job with the present set up.

You really need to diagram your setup and explain everything. Your new information has just changed the purpose of that valve from a bypass valve to a main inlet valve. As a main inlet valve it is working and not the problem.
 

 

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You have to learn about them or accept that your systems are going to work (or not) in unexpected ways at unexpected times and cost random amounts of money, time and inconvenience to fix.

When you buy a new house you have no idea about the quality of the plumbing or electrics, fortunately in the nearly 11 years I've been here I've encountered very few problems, and the malfunction of a return valve or whatever it is, is just a minor hiccup. Everything fails sooner or later.

[giddyup]

Just now, sometimewoodworker said:

You really need to diagram your setup and explain everything. Your new information has just changed the purpose of that valve from a bypass valve to a main inlet valve. As a main inlet valve it is working and not the problem.
 

 

How can I diagram something that is not shown. I didn't install the pump and tank, so have no idea how everything works. I have shown clear pics of what I can see, can do no more.