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Posted (edited)

I've recently learned that Chiang Mai branch office of National Office of Buddhism said they're willing to issue "certification letter" (หนังสือรับรอง) toward the sixth year extension of Non-Immigrant R visa against their own rule.  However, this directly contradicts with the confirmation I got over a phone with Phutthamonthon headquarter last year when I inquired with them if they have any provision for extraordinary circumstance like pandemic in the event the foreign monks cannot leave Thailand, to which they replied "certification letter" can be issued for no more than 5 times per Non-Imm R visa for foreign monastics from Buddhist countries no matter what (pandemic or not).  It also contradicts with their own written-out guideline (ระเบียบสำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติว่าด้วยการออกหนังสือรับรองให้ต่ออายุวีซ่าแก่ชาวต่างประเทศผู้เข้ามาศึกษาหรือปฏิบัติธรรมทางพระพุทธศาสนาในประเทศไทย พ.ศ. 2546).

National Office of Buddhism is a ministry-independent, department-level government agency that reports directly to the Office of Prime Minister.  And if I understand it correctly, they can't overrule or override their own rule to suit our convenience without making official amendment and announcing it publicly.  It also begs a question why now when it wasn't possible last year.  

Does anyone know if the 6th year extension (or 11th year for farang monastics from western, non-Buddhist countries) is really possible for Non-Immigrant R visa holders?  


 

Edited by Nordlys
  • Like 1
Posted

yes, it is possible.
These decisions are made on a highly individual basis.
There is quite a number of foreign monastics who managed to extend their visas to more than what is usually granted.
Usually, there are compelling reasons, like (already mentioned) not having finished ones PALI studies yet, or, abbotship.
According to your information, your senior japanese monk seems to have done it many times already,
but now the officials for some reason seem to have put an end on it.

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, KhemaKhema said:

yes, it is possible.
These decisions are made on a highly individual basis.
There is quite a number of foreign monastics who managed to extend their visas to more than what is usually granted.
Usually, there are compelling reasons, like (already mentioned) not having finished ones PALI studies yet, or, abbotship.
According to your information, your senior japanese monk seems to have done it many times already,
but now the officials for some reason seem to have put an end on it.

 
Hi KhemaKhema,  

Yes, that senior Japan monk has done it many times but he had to leave Thailand every 5 years and return to Thailand with tourist visa and reapply Non-Imm R all over again.  He has been in Thailand consecutively for the past 25 years with Non-Imm R visa now but that doesn't mean he had it extended 25 times.  We went to the Immigration Bureau to meet with the official in charge of PR application in February and they pointed out the said monk of 25 vassa isn't eligible for PR application yet until October this year despite the venerable had stayed in Thailand under the same Non-Imm R visa for the past 25 years, but because he hasn't been in Thailand under the renewed Non-Imm R for 3 years yet if you know what I mean (by that, I mean 3rd extension of the last Non-Imm R issued). 

Edited by Nordlys
Posted

yes, the information given to you by immigration is correct.
To extend the visa over its 5/10 times , you need to get the letter of recommendation of the สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนา.
To get the letter of recommendation, there need to be compelling reasons.

Please be aware, that your senior monk has NOT "been in Thailand consecutively for the past 25 years with Non-Imm R visa".
The meaning of "consecutive" is: Consecutive events, numbers, etc. follow one after another without an interruption.
Once the senior monk had left the country and applied for a new visa from abroad, there was an interruption in his visa process and things started anew.

Posted (edited)

OK, the senior monk has been in Thailand under the same visa for the last 25 years but interrupted and had to be renewed every 5 years.  But you get my point.  

Now getting back to my question could it be true that NOB official can arbitrarily issue certification letter for 6th consecutive extension of the Non-Imm R visa at their own discretion against their own written-out guideline?  That's what I've been told the abbot of the monastery where the Japanese monk of 5 vassa is the Sangha member has been told by the NOB official at its Chiang Mai branch.  So it's not a first-hand information and I'm highly skeptical of its veracity.  

His visa is expiring in 3 months and unless the said certification letter is forthcoming his only option is to apply for "visa amnesty" which allows any Non-Imm visa holders whose visa is expiring to legally extend their stay in the kindgom until July 27th if applied by May 29th.  If the emergency decree will be extended again it's likely they will further extend the visa amnesty too for another two months (at 1,900 Baht each time) but that's the only option he has to remain in Thailand legally or to return to Japan at any cost.  

Edited by Nordlys
Posted

I think i have to make this more clear:
Your senior monk has NOT " been in Thailand under the same visa for the last 25 years but interrupted and had to be renewed every 5 years.".
This is a very important point!
Once he left Thailand without a re-entry permit his visa was finished.
He then applied for a NEW visa outside of Thailand and has NOT renewed the old one outside of Thailand.
So in terms of immigration he is now in his "3rd extension of the last Non-Imm R issued".
Therefore he needs to bide his time until he can apply for permanent residency.
I remember you were planning to contact Chaeng Watthana, have you made inquirements into the PR process for monks yet?



Regarding your 5 vassa monk:
The NOB is not issueing letters of recommendation "arbitrarily".
If there is a compelling reason they will, if not, they won't.
My recommendation is for your abott to go see the head monk of the province (เจ้าคณะจังหวัด) and explain the situation to him.
The head monk of the province could then talk to NOB Chiang Mai and ask them to consider issueing a letter of recommendation based on the extraordinary circumstances during the international COVID situation.
If they still refuse, i would use the visa amnesty option as long as possible and then, once Thailands borders are open again, apply for a new visa from abroad.


  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, KhemaKhema said:

I think i have to make this more clear:
Your senior monk has NOT " been in Thailand under the same visa for the last 25 years but interrupted and had to be renewed every 5 years.".
This is a very important point!
Once he left Thailand without a re-entry permit his visa was finished.
He then applied for a NEW visa outside of Thailand and has NOT renewed the old one outside of Thailand.
So in terms of immigration he is now in his "3rd extension of the last Non-Imm R issued".
Therefore he needs to bide his time until he can apply for permanent residency.
I remember you were planning to contact Chaeng Watthana, have you made inquirements into the PR process for monks yet?


Correct, but he didn't reapply because he left Thailand without a re−entry permit.

And yes, we did go visit Chaeng Watthana in February and saw the actual application submitted by an Aussie monk, an abbot of a branch monastery of Ajahn Chah's Wat Nongpapong in Phetchabun province.  We were simply impressed, if not blown away by the impressive and neatly compiled supplemental materials submitted with the application (publications, CDs etc. - sort of a portfolio of what the venerable has been doing in Thailand thus far, both for himself as a Dhamma practitioner but also for locals as well as lay people in general) and the dedication of his lay supporters who provided it all - we are simply no match (I got to talk to one of the Thai lay supporters who provided all the supporting materials last month).  They published that in the exact quantity of the committee members who will decide whether or not to grant him the PR - if he doesn't get it, it made me wonder who will.  

If there's anything we can match to this Aussie monk that would probably be recommendation letters, but without recommendations from well-known venerables like Ajahn Jayasaro and LP Liem (Wat Nongpapong abbot who succeeded LP Chah), among others.  Unfortunately, my Japanese Ajahn hasn't done much to teach the Thai general public (e.g. giving Dhamma talks, leading retreats, distributed Dhamma books, provide teachings via online media like YouTube Channel and podcasts like this Aussie venerable has done) - he has been teaching Nak Tham exam preparation to Thai monks of his monastery but not publicly (other than in Japan) and he has been a rather reclusive, solitary practitioner most of his monastic life (a พระกรรมฐาน type if you know what I mean).  

The officer didn't encourage that he applies PR and simply recommended that the monk sticks to lifetime of Non-Imm R extension (easier for farang bikkhus but less so for Japanese).  

I told the Japanese monk that I can no longer recommend him the PR application in good conscience but his Thai abbot now seems keen to give it a try so I recommended them both go visit Chaeng Watthana Immigration themselves to find out more rather than to rely on 2nd hand information (which they plan to do in May, if not hampered by the new surge in caseloads).  The officer there was very open in showing us the Aussie monk's application but not so forthcoming in providing answers to our questions (very vague answers).   
 

21 hours ago, KhemaKhema said:

Regarding your 5 vassa monk:
The NOB is not issueing letters of recommendation "arbitrarily".
If there is a compelling reason they will, if not, they won't.
My recommendation is for your abott to go see the head monk of the province (เจ้าคณะจังหวัด) and explain the situation to him.
The head monk of the province could then talk to NOB Chiang Mai and ask them to consider issueing a letter of recommendation based on the extraordinary circumstances during the international COVID situation.
If they still refuse, i would use the visa amnesty option as long as possible and then, once Thailands borders are open again, apply for a new visa from abroad.


Wow that is nice to know but how do you know that and do you actually know if any monastics had done that and had NOB successfully issued หนังสือรับรอง toward the 6th/11th Non-Imm R extension?  

And yes, the only option left if everything is exhausted (other than to return to Japan) is to apply for 60 days COVID extension at 1,900 Baht each time (a bargain compared to making a round-trip to Japan).  

I've recently talked to one of the lay volunteers of a forest monastery in Nakhon Ratchasima that hosts many foreigners lay people and monastics alike and she told me she just successfully helped a Korean lay person's COVID extension at Nakhon Ratchasima immigration office.  She said this person has been staying in Thailand at her monastery since late 2019 on multiple consecutive extensions of his tourist visa.  
And with the recent new surge in clusters in Bangkok and elsewhere in Thailand it is highly likely the Emergency Decree will be extended once again along with 60 days COVID Visa Amnesty.  

Edited by Nordlys
  • Like 1
Posted

Well done you, very good research you did in Bangkok !
And yes, from all i have heard, getting permanent residency for a foreign monastic is very difficult.
That Australian monks permanent residency is not sure too.
For your senior monks future, maybe a trip abroad every 5 years is the easiest option.
You did mention already, because of the high fee ELITE visa is out of the question.
The COVID Visa Amnesty should be no problem.
Hopefully towards the end of the year 2564 the Covid situation has changed and he can apply for a new visa from abroad.

The head monk of the province (เจ้าคณะจังหวัด) usually is in close contact with NOB and knows them well.
Applications that have his strong personal support will be contemplated quite different from those made by "unknown" monks.
Your abott should go there and have a chat with him.
To which Nikaya does your monastery belong to, Dhammyut (ธ) or Mahanikay (ม)?

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, KhemaKhema said:

The head monk of the province (เจ้าคณะจังหวัด) usually is in close contact with NOB and knows them well.
Applications that have his strong personal support will be contemplated quite different from those made by "unknown" monks.
Your abott should go there and have a chat with him.
To which Nikaya does your monastery belong to, Dhammyut (ธ) or Mahanikay (ม)?


I never asked if it's Dhammayut of Mahanikaya but his temple being one of the branch monasteries of the lineage of renowned and perhaps one of the most revered monks in the north Khruba Siwichai who is well known for a conflict and insubordination to the Sangha Supreme Council in its early days I have no doubt it is Mahanikaya.  The monastery is located in Southern Chiang Mai in the mountainous region only about 20 min from the birth place of Khruba Siwichai.  You might know Khruba Siwichai as a bhikkhu who built one of the most famous tourist spots in Chiang Mai, Wat Phra That Doi Suthep.  

Yes, I also heard the Aussie Venerable has a rough road ahead with his PR application.  But I also recently heard from a Thai supporter that LP Sumedho (the first foreign disciple of LP Chah) who recently returned to Amaravati Monastery in UK where he spent quarter of a century as a founding abbot also have a Thai PR (no surprise but I initially speculated he left Thailand after spending 10 years in his retirement at Wat Pah Rattanawan because of visa issues) and another farang Venerable also at Wat Rattanawan who was granted PR after his 2nd attempt at application.  

The immigration officials suggested that one doesn't necessarily have to have Non-Imm R to remain in robe in Thailand - e.g. he can switch to Non-Imm O (long stay visa) in the event if his Non-Imm R application is denied (that said as a monk, my Ajahn had been a renunciant for the last quarter of a century and it's not sensible to ask the abbot to transfer the temple fund to the bank account in his name).  

It sounds like เจ้าคณะจังหวัด is also a good candidate to ask to write a  recommendation letter for the Japanese Venerable.  I will forward all your information to him.  Sadhu X3.  ????

BTW I also recently got to talk to one Thai monk, a fellow Sangha member of the other Japanese monk of 30+ vassa from Wat Pah Sukato the forest monastery in Chaiyaphum who regularly comes to teach at a Vipassana Center near my home in Bangkok and he happened to be a monk who had provided assistance for visa extension and application to this Japanese Venerable.  All this time I thought this Japanese venerable's visa application after 30 years in Thailand under Non-Imm R was denied but it turned out after 30 vassa he relinquished the idea to further practicing in Thailand turned down his fellow Thai monk's offer to assist him with his 7th application after he returned to Thailand on tourist visa (after he left Thailand when his 6th 5 years-term has ended), probably to concentrate on teaching the Japanese laities which indeed he actively does after resettling in Japan 3 years ago.  

My misunderstanding that he was denied his visa application after 30 years under Non-Imm R visa is actually what prompted me to suggest my Japanese Ajahn to consider PR application in the first place last year and indeed, when I brought this up  at Chaeng Watthana in February the Immigration Officer said while they can't speculate as to why it was denied to this Japanese monk but claimed NOB rarely ever denied issuing ใบรับรอง and as long as it is issued the Immigration Bureau has no reason to turn down the Non-Imm R application no matter how many times it was previously issued to a same applicant.  

I could have asked the Japanese Venerable directly but I never did because I was afraid it would be akin to asking him to reveal his shortcomings, if any - too rude as he doesn't know me.  

I explained that all to my Ajahn in Chiang Mai last month and told him that perhaps PR application isn't only worth the effort and cost but unnecessary at all but his Thai abbot is now keen to do his favor for his deputy and eager to give it a try so I'll let them do as they please from there - why not, some claim being Japanese national alone - an identity generally favorably accepted in Thailand is a great asset and advantage, not to mention there's little competition among 100 quota allocated each year to Japanese applicant - unlike Chinese and Indian nationals who fill up the 100 max quota on the first day of the application (but rarely ever fills up if at all for Japanese).   

Edited by Nordlys
Posted

Both Luang Por Sumedho and the other senior monk you mentioned have recently be presented with new ecclesiastical titles (in case of LP Sumedho a very high one).
It seems that receiving a high ecclesiastical title comes with an offer of permanent residency.

  • Confused 1
Posted

You mean without even asking?  ????????

LP Passano and Amaro of Abhayagiri and Amaravati Monasteries who aren't in Thailand also received ecclesiastical titles two years ago.  Were they granted PR too?   

Posted

At the time they received their titles both Luang Por Sumedho and the other senior monk you mentioned had been living in Thailand for a considerable time already, as far as i know, they both have been OFFERED citizenship.
LP Sumedho has moved to the U.K. now, i do not know whether he took the option.
LP Passano has moved back to the U.S.A. a long time ago, LP Amaro has never lived in Thailand for long, so maybe they did not receive an offer.

  • Confused 1
Posted

I knew Ajahn Jayasaro was awarded with the citizenship two years ago by HM the King but didn't know about LP Sumedho and the other monk having accepted the offer (or even been offered for that matter).  

I actually don't know who the other Venerable is.  Could that be the Wat Rattanawan abbot Ajahn Nyanadhammo?  ????

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