Sweden's pandemic experiment ends amid spiking coronavirus cases

[placeholder]

48 minutes ago, Airalee said:

Nothing nasty or dishonest about it at all.  Many (most?) people have no symptoms, fewer people have severe symptoms...many are somewhere in the middle.  With more cases, but fewer people dying (as a percentage of new cases...which did skyrocket immensely compared to deaths) Well...I would posit that many of those people are sent home with some Benadryl or something of the sort.

 

“With mild COVID-19, which happens in at least 80% of people, symptoms can include  congestion or a runny nose.”

https://www.webmd.com/lung/qa/is-my-runny-nose-coronavirus-or-a-cold

 

 

You claimed that hospitalizations weren't following. It was false then and it's false now.

[placeholder]

33 minutes ago, HiSoLowSoNoSo said:

Some people prefer a country without curfews, mandatory facemask wearing, and government closures of your business. The law have to be changed if the government want to close down the country and I don't think the population will accept it.  Sweden was ranked Number one in the world for personal freedom last year.

Some people don't give a damn about their fellow citizens, too. It's all about them. Mask wearing, curfews, social distancing saves the lives of others. As for laws, I see that Sweden is now imposing stricter measures. Were the laws changed for that?

Edited December 13, 2020 by placeholder

[Lacessit]

39 minutes ago, HiSoLowSoNoSo said:

Some people prefer a country without curfews, mandatory facemask wearing, and government closures of your business. The law have to be changed if the government want to close down the country and I don't think the population will accept it.  Sweden was ranked Number one in the world for personal freedom last year.

It's difficult to say which is better, accepting casualties to keep a country open, or locking down to save lives. Forecasts are for the Australian and New Zealand economies to recover faster than those countries that left the lockdown too late.

One aspect of the pandemic that seems to fly under the radar is the effect on other people admitted to hospital with conditions completely unrelated to COVID-19. It would be interesting to know how many excess deaths are caused by patients being crowded out by coronavirus victims.

IMO whether a nation accepts lockdowns, masks etc. or rejects those measures is a guide to the national character.

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

29 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Some people don't give a damn about their fellow citizens, too. It's all about them. Mask wearing, curfews, social distancing saves the lives of others. As for laws, I see that Sweden is now imposing stricter measures. Were the laws changed for that?

They are new recommendations not laws, the governments policy was from the beginning to save the economy and not to overload the healthcare system.

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

It's difficult to say which is better, accepting casualties to keep a country open, or locking down to save lives. Forecasts are for the Australian and New Zealand economies to recover faster than those countries that left the lockdown too late.

One aspect of the pandemic that seems to fly under the radar is the effect on other people admitted to hospital with conditions completely unrelated to COVID-19. It would be interesting to know how many excess deaths are caused by patients being crowded out by coronavirus victims.

IMO whether a nation accepts lockdowns, masks etc. or rejects those measures is a guide to the national character.

 

True, too early to evaluate what approach was the wisest in the long run. For me as a Swede and a freedom loving guy I think, looking in your whole population as Australia has done is a terrible thing to do. I will also never use Qantas airline after they said that you have to be vaccinated to be able to fly with them in the future, what about all the people who get allergic reactions to the new vaccine? 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, HiSoLowSoNoSo said:

 

True, too early to evaluate what approach was the wisest in the long run. For me as a Swede and a freedom loving guy I think, looking in your whole population as Australia has done is a terrible thing to do. I will also never use Qantas airline after they said that you have to be vaccinated to be able to fly with them in the future, what about all the people who get allergic reactions to the new vaccine? 

Australians are capable of accepting regulation for the common good as long as the reasons are communicated clearly. As witness the gun laws that were brought in after Port Arthur.

We have just over 1000 cases of COVID-19 per million population, Sweden has over 31,000. That's a heavy price to pay for freedom.

IMO you are not going to find any international airline which does not require either vaccination or a COVID certificate, I'd say most will choose vaccination as the certificate is only a limited warranty which could be invalidated by a single contact with an infected person.

"All the people?" The purpose of vaccine trials is to weed out candidates which produce unacceptable reactions of any kind. For example, a coronavirus vaccine developed by the University of Queensland has been scrapped because it produced a false positive to HIV testing in several participants.

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

7 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Australians are capable of accepting regulation for the common good as long as the reasons are communicated clearly. As witness the gun laws that were brought in after Port Arthur.

We have just over 1000 cases of COVID-19 per million population, Sweden has over 31,000. That's a heavy price to pay for freedom.

IMO you are not going to find any international airline which does not require either vaccination or a COVID certificate, I'd say most will choose vaccination as the certificate is only a limited warranty which could be invalidated by a single contact with an infected person.

"All the people?" The purpose of vaccine trials is to weed out candidates which produce unacceptable reactions of any kind. For example, a coronavirus vaccine developed by the University of Queensland has been scrapped because it produced a false positive to HIV testing in several participants.

 

Freedom versus becoming the worst nanny state in the world, a hard choice, but not for me.  Still love you Aussies and Kiwis, only people on this planet that can keep up drinking beer like us Vikings.

[Airalee]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

You claimed that hospitalizations weren't following. It was false then and it's false now.

The increase in deaths (the important thing) and hospitalizations was insignificant to the increase in the number of cases.  That was my point then and is my point now.  At least I’m consistent.

 

You attribute that to “better care”.  That’s a good thing.  I see good news in the charts, you see bad news.  
 

Deaths trending downwards.  Deaths still a much smaller percentage of cases during the second wave than the first wave.

 

I say that’s a good thing.  
 

I still mask up, wash my hands and remain respectful of those who are fearful for their health.  If people are that worried, they should stay home and have their food and other supplies delivered.  We should all be thankful for Amazon.
 

 

 

 

[farang51]

1 hour ago, HiSoLowSoNoSo said:

For me as a Swede and a freedom loving guy I think, looking in your whole population as Australia has done is a terrible thing to do.

Freedom in Sweden? Tell that to my cousin; her husband is at the hospital (not covid) and he may well die in the next few days; she is not allowed to visit him. In some regards, Sweden has been more strict than it's neighbouring countries.

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

4 minutes ago, farang51 said:

Freedom in Sweden? Tell that to my cousin; her husband is at the hospital (not covid) and he may well die in the next few days; she is not allowed to visit him. In some regards, Sweden has been more strict than it's Sweden is ranked Number one in the world for personal freedom..

Yes we still got personal freedom here and I am in Sweden right now and we can travel freely to other countries and return without any quarantine. What do you mean with Sweden has been more strict than it's neighboring countries? I can't travel freely to Norway from Sweden for example. 

[farang51]

1 minute ago, HiSoLowSoNoSo said:

Yes we still got personal freedom here and I am in Sweden right now and we can travel freely to other countries and return without any quarantine. What do you mean with Sweden has been more strict than it's neighboring countries? I can't travel freely to Norway from Sweden for example. 

Freedom is more than travelling to other countries. As I mentioned, you are not free to visit your loved ones in the hospital in Sweden.

 

When Denmark scrapped it advisories for how many people could gather, Sweden kept the limit at a low number. Now, they have lowered that number even more: "Public gatherings and events may have a maximum of 8 participants." Is that freedom? You mentioned Australia and New Zealand as against freedom, do you know how many they allow to gather there?

[Lacessit]

58 minutes ago, HiSoLowSoNoSo said:

 

Freedom versus becoming the worst nanny state in the world, a hard choice, but not for me.  Still love you Aussies and Kiwis, only people on this planet that can keep up drinking beer like us Vikings.

That's probably because a considerable proportion of the Australian population has Scandinavian ancestry. Grandfather on my mother's side was Danish.

Don't disagree on the nanny state, one of the reasons I live in Thailand.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/13/2020 at 9:11 AM, oldhippy said:

I hear that the UK imports their nurses from Rumania. Until 1 january, that is.

Good for the Rumanian health system after 1 january.

I believe that after I left the NHS they were importing nurses from Spain, but the Spanish nurses were so unimpressed by the NHS they left. However, NHS was so much better than NZ hospitals that I stayed ( better pay, more holidays ).

A lot of Australian nurses used to work in the NHS in the early 90s. They were excellent, but mainly worked for agencies which meant they cost the NHS more than employees, and the government changed the rules, which meant most vanished After that they employed loads of African nurses, which meant African countries were deprived of needed nurses. Not long before I left they had such a shortage that they had to put up lower ranked nurses wages significantly. I left anyway, because management bullying became too bad to tolerate.

If the NHS has a retention problem they only need to investigate management, IMO.

Edited December 14, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Lacessit said:

One aspect of the pandemic that seems to fly under the radar is the effect on other people admitted to hospital with conditions completely unrelated to COVID-19. It would be interesting to know how many excess deaths are caused by patients being crowded out by coronavirus victims.

I look forward to seeing the stats on how many died from other causes that couldn't get treatment, and the increase ( or otherwise ) of suicide and abuse during lockdowns.

[ExpatOilWorker]

As of December 11 (14):

December 1: 32 (51)

December 2: 33 (52)

December 3: 29 (51)

December 4: 26 (37)

December 5: 14 (19)

December 6: 36 (44)

December 7: 7 (19)

December 8: 14 (24)

December 9: 4 (15)

December 10: 21 (7)

December 11: N/A (18)

 

Nice that Sweden brought 14 people back from the dead on December 10th, but it appears Placeholder was right all along. 

Sweden are slow to release their fatality statistics, making the most current 2-3 weeks of data irrelevant to the debate.

[Jeffr2]

14 hours ago, HiSoLowSoNoSo said:

Yes we still got personal freedom here and I am in Sweden right now and we can travel freely to other countries and return without any quarantine. What do you mean with Sweden has been more strict than it's neighboring countries? I can't travel freely to Norway from Sweden for example. 

As you know then, your personal freedom threw the elderly under the bus.  Your infection and death rates were WAY above your neighbors, and their economies are doing better.

 

In the end, this experiment failed.  We all want our freedom, but most of us respect others to mask up and practice social distancing.  It's the right thing to do.  Sadly, the US has proven failing to do this is murderous.

[FarFlungFalang]

28 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

As you know then, your personal freedom threw the elderly under the bus.  Your infection and death rates were WAY above your neighbors, and their economies are doing better.

 

In the end, this experiment failed.  We all want our freedom, but most of us respect others to mask up and practice social distancing.  It's the right thing to do.  Sadly, the US has proven failing to do this is murderous.

Do you have any proof that his personal freedoms threw anyone under the bus?If not your info maybe misleading.So who threw the UK and US and everyone else's elderly under the bus and did any restrictions save those people?In the end Sweden wasn't an experiment as they followed the WHO recommendations for a pandemic response what was the failed experiment was the vicious measures we tried to use to stop the virus when ALL the medical experts said it couldn't be stopped and some of those countries that tried to stop it ended up worse than Sweden including many European countries.There are many who have died and many are yet to die because of the restrictions measures.So people must die to satisfy your pathetic stop the virus experiment and without any thought and science having been consulted but a pathetic attachment the adherence to the covid blow hards.You trying to attribute guilt to people who don't follow the blow hard principles of degenerative argument. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by FarFlungFalang

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Do you have any proof that his personal freedoms threw anyone under the bus?If not your info maybe misleading.So who threw the UK and US and everyone else's elderly under the bus and did any restrictions save those people?In the end Sweden wasn't an experiment as they followed the WHO recommendations for a pandemic response what was the failed experiment was the vicious measures we tried to use to stop the virus when ALL the medical experts said it couldn't be stopped and some of those countries that tried to stop it ended up worse than Sweden including many European countries.There are many who have died and many are yet to die because of the restrictions measures.So people must die to satisfy your pathetic stop the virus experiment and with thought and science having been consulted but a pathetic attachment the adherence to the covid blow hards.You trying to attribute guilt to people who don't follow the blow hard principles of degenerative argument. 

https://www.france24.com/en/20200916-they-sacrificed-the-elderly-how-covid-19-spread-in-sweden-s-care-homes

‘They sacrificed the elderly’: How Covid-19 spread in Sweden’s care homes

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Do you have any proof that his personal freedoms threw anyone under the bus?If not your info maybe misleading.So who threw the UK and US and everyone else's elderly under the bus and did any restrictions save those people?In the end Sweden wasn't an experiment as they followed the WHO recommendations for a pandemic response what was the failed experiment was the vicious measures we tried to use to stop the virus when ALL the medical experts said it couldn't be stopped and some of those countries that tried to stop it ended up worse than Sweden including many European countries.There are many who have died and many are yet to die because of the restrictions measures.So people must die to satisfy your pathetic stop the virus experiment and with thought and science having been consulted but a pathetic attachment the adherence to the covid blow hards.You trying to attribute guilt to people who don't follow the blow hard principles of degenerative argument. 

The US is in bad shape for the same reason Sweden is.  People wanting their personal freedom...at the risk of others.

 

They didn't follow the WHO recommendation.  That's why this was called an experiment.

 

People must die to what?  Are you serious?  I'm pretty sure every level headed person in the world wants to stop the virus.  It's not experiment.

[Jeffr2]

Just now, FarFlungFalang said:

Keep blowing.Huff and puff until you blow hard.

There are dozens of articles out there describing this.  Sad you can't accept the truth.  The experiment ended, it didn't work, as stated in the article.

 

 

Quote

 

Sweden's pandemic experiment ends amid spiking coronavirus cases

Swedes are now heading into winter facing restrictions, from a ban on large gatherings to school closures

 

 

[Jeffr2]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/long-a-holdout-from-covid-19-restrictions-sweden-ends-its-pandemic-experiment-11607261658

Long a Holdout From Covid-19 Restrictions, Sweden Ends Its Pandemic Experiment

 

Government imposes mandatory measures after failing to contain new surge in infections

 

After a late autumn surge in infections led to rising hospitalizations and deaths, the government has abandoned its attempt—unique among Western nations—to combat the pandemic through voluntary measures.

[FarFlungFalang]

9 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

There are dozens of articles out there describing this.  Sad you can't accept the truth.  The experiment ended, it didn't work, as stated in the article.

 

 

 

If people are accused of sacrificing the elderly they should be taken to court and convicted which to my knowledge hasn't happened yet.People just like to make these type of baseless accusations to seem like they are a bigger blow hard than they really are.What in fact happened in 2020 was that a virus swept through the human population and nobody but the virus was to blame.Some made dubious experimental attempts to prevent the spread of the virus but failed to make any significant difference.In the human history of recorded pandemics it's but a small blip.

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, FarFlungFalang said:

If people are accused of sacrificing the elderly they should be taken to court and convicted which to my knowledge hasn't happened yet.People just like to make these type of baseless accusations to seem like they are a bigger blow hard than they really are.What in fact happened in 2020 was that a virus swept through the human population and nobody but the virus was to blame.Some made dubious experimental attempts to prevent the spread of the virus but failed to make any significant difference.In the human history of recorded pandemics it's but a small blip.

Hard to deny the facts.  Being taken to court doesn't mean these articles are wrong.  I didn't write them, but you really should read them.  They aren't baseless accusations.

 

From that same article:

Quote

Last week Sweden’s total coronavirus death count crossed 7,000. Neighboring Denmark, Finland and Norway, all similar-sized countries, have recorded since the start of the pandemic 878, 415 and 354 deaths respectively. For the first time since World War II, Sweden’s neighbors have closed their borders with the country.

 

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

31 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

https://www.france24.com/en/20200916-they-sacrificed-the-elderly-how-covid-19-spread-in-sweden-s-care-homes

‘They sacrificed the elderly’: How Covid-19 spread in Sweden’s care homes

 

The government admitted that the many deaths in the care homes was a failure, this was in the spring this happened, many of the workers in the care homes were immigrants and they were often living many in same small apartments and not informed about the virus and how to live with it.  The Somali population in my town are for example five times more infected compared to the other groups. This got nothing to do with throwing anybody under the bus, it was something that happened because of the many part time working immigrants in the care homes and no exciting knowledge about this virus.

[Jeffr2]

52 minutes ago, HiSoLowSoNoSo said:

 

The government admitted that the many deaths in the care homes was a failure, this was in the spring this happened, many of the workers in the care homes were immigrants and they were often living many in same small apartments and not informed about the virus and how to live with it.  The Somali population in my town are for example five times more infected compared to the other groups. This got nothing to do with throwing anybody under the bus, it was something that happened because of the many part time working immigrants in the care homes and no exciting knowledge about this virus.

If you don't wear masks and social distance, when the virus is raging all across the world, and it's well understood the elderly are most at risk....you get the picture.

[Rimmer]

A baiting troll post boarding on a personal attack has been removed

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

If people are accused of sacrificing the elderly they should be taken to court and convicted which to my knowledge hasn't happened yet.People just like to make these type of baseless accusations to seem like they are a bigger blow hard than they really are.What in fact happened in 2020 was that a virus swept through the human population and nobody but the virus was to blame.Some made dubious experimental attempts to prevent the spread of the virus but failed to make any significant difference.In the human history of recorded pandemics it's but a small blip.

What absolute blathering twaddle. Australia and New Zealand limited the damage caused by the virus because in both nations the people were willing to accept constraints for the greater good. Sweden and the USA were disasters because people would not do that, and the leader of the USA in particular was more focused on an economy and getting re-elected, than lives. Set the worst example possible. In Sweden, the head medico had the hypothesis of herd immunity, a failure.

Here's the facts for you.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Try reading it before posting again.

[FarFlungFalang]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Hard to deny the facts.  Being taken to court doesn't mean these articles are wrong.  I didn't write them, but you really should read them.  They aren't baseless accusations.

 

From that same article:

 

Sweden followed the WHO's protocols of pandemic response initially recommended,the WHO then flip flopped from no lockdowns to lockdowns then back to no lockdowns which is where they are now at the moment the WHO doesn't recommend lockdowns as they are too damaging and only freeze but don't stop the virus.I've read many of the articles you mention and don't agree and sure some of the allegations I think raised in some articles maybe valid but a headline that screams Sweden is sacrificing it's elderly is an allegation that lacks any credibility and should remain buried in the vast depths of the cesspool of managed fecal matter people call a source of information and not brought forth and waved under our noses as that is bordering on the outrageous notion of a bad smelling argument,there I go again bordering.Sweden followed normal protocols in place at the time and a lot of other countries chose to implement tougher restrictions again some in the region had better results and some had worse and Hungary had about the same result yet they tried the tougher measures yet ended with remarkably similar numbers especially deaths per million of population.

 

 

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

They didn't follow the WHO recommendation.  That's why this was called an experiment.

 

[FarFlungFalang]

16 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

What absolute blathering twaddle. Australia and New Zealand limited the damage caused by the virus because in both nations the people were willing to accept constraints for the greater good. Sweden and the USA were disasters because people would not do that, and the leader of the USA in particular was more focused on an economy and getting re-elected, than lives. Set the worst example possible. In Sweden, the head medico had the hypothesis of herd immunity, a failure.

Here's the facts for you.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Try reading it before posting again.

Australia and New Zealand two frightened rabbits frozen stiff in the middle of the road praying for herd immunity rescue from a passing vaccine.Don't forget the rest of the disaster countries like Sweden's neighbour Belgium with nearly twice the deaths per million of population numbers could be perceived to be the worse possible scenario.Why don't you pick on Belgium?I notice you've dragged the rotted carcass of Sweden's herd immunity argument well doesn't smell as bad as Belgium's disastrous attempt's to slay the covid dragon.Why don't you pick on Belgium they did twice as bad as Sweden.

[Jeffr2]

15 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Sweden followed the WHO's protocols of pandemic response initially recommended,the WHO then flip flopped from no lockdowns to lockdowns then back to no lockdowns which is where they are now at the moment the WHO doesn't recommend lockdowns as they are too damaging and only freeze but don't stop the virus.I've read many of the articles you mention and don't agree and sure some of the allegations I think raised in some articles maybe valid but a headline that screams Sweden is sacrificing it's elderly is an allegation that lacks any credibility and should remain buried in the vast depths of the cesspool of managed fecal matter people call a source of information and not brought forth and waved under our noses as that is bordering on the outrageous notion of a bad smelling argument,there I go again bordering.Sweden followed normal protocols in place at the time and a lot of other countries chose to implement tougher restrictions again some in the region had better results and some had worse and Hungary had about the same result yet they tried the tougher measures yet ended with remarkably similar numbers especially deaths per million of population.

Come on.  Sweden didn't follow the WHO's protocols.  Which were mask up and social distance.  You'll have to provide a link to a credible news source to back up your claim.  Otherwise, it's not true.

 

You really should read this article.  You seem to be out of touch.

https://www.thinkglobalhealth.org/article/five-problems-swedish-approach-covid-19