Problems with Juristic office granting permission to make home improvements

[synetos]

Apologies in advance for the long post but I really need advice on an absurd scenario.

 

I recently bought a condominium with a rooftop - in fact the rooftop was the ONLY reason I bought this condominium.

 

When discussing the purchase with the sales agent, I told him of the ideas I had for making the rooftop into a nicer living space. He informed me that other residents in the building had previously done so, and as such I could also see some other properties within view who had built additional features such as rooftop shades, and higher side wall panels for better privacy.

 

I put some plans together and enquired with the Juristic office about the process I needed to follow to submit my plans and then get approval.  

They gave me the necessary paperwork and told me the procedure.  My plans were to build a wooden structure that basically would provide a further rooftop covering to keep the existing rooftop dry and make the outside space more usable during the wet season and also to add some wooden privacy walls similar to ones I have seen on other properties.

 

On getting the paperwork the staff in the juristic office had expressed that getting permission could take time and that that they would need proper plans (which was my intention anyway as want everything done right)  - and while doing this i got the impression that it didnt matter what i asked they were going to say no anyway as my girlfriend who also lives with me had a small argument with them over a separate issue when we first moved in - then from then they saw her as being rude.  From that moment I told my girlfriend to stay away from the juristic office and let me deal with things. I have been overly polite with them at every opportunity.

 

I employed an architect to design and make proper architectural drawings and also employed a structural engineer to make sure that the existing structure is solid enough to accommodate the additional work I wanted doing (the building is 20 years old and as solid as they come, and I already knew it would be fine but felt getting the structural engineer gives my plans more legitimacy)

 

After talking to a friend who knew some of the staff in the juristic office they had told me that they would approve the plans if I paid a bribe.  Given that I am aware of such "procedures" in some countries I agreed to this (which would be paid once the plans are approved)  

 

After submitting the plans they then still refused the permission to go ahead with the work. 

 

After further enquiries from people I know it seems there is just one juristic officer who has repeatedly caused problems for residents in the condo over many years by refusing almost every request at every opportunity.  I dont know much about this guy and dont want to judge but I was also told he is vehemently racist towards farang.

 

Upon speaking to juristic officers who oversee the other buildings in the complex - they said that if i lived in their building the plans would be approved as they clearly do not present any issues with health and safety, or questionable construction problems or issues for any neighbours etc.  Their advice was to then go to the district office to try to get permission.  However I was also told by my architect and structural engineer that this is something I can do but potentially could create a big drama for every person in the condo complex who has ever done any building work - as the district office would want to review why my plans were refused against the plans of others that were approved - and be a lengthy and costly process.

 

I know that Thailand can be a country with red tape but i now feel like this has become totally ridiculous.  I cannot understand how this person does not see that by me spending money to improve my property it also is good for everyone else because average property prices will increase also. 

 

I have thought to up the bribe offer but at this point im more inclined to try to get these people voted out at the upcoming AGM and propose a vote of no confidence in them as juristic officers - however I am also aware this would make me a target more for them to make my life as difficult as they can should i fail or if they have other connections.

 

My next step would be to consult a lawyer to take on the case - im determined to go ahead with my plans even if it takes me 10 years to do so.

 

Does anyone else have any other advice on how to approach this ?

 

 

[Peterw42]

You cannot individually build on or modify common property, end of story.

You own what is defined on your chanote and thats what you can modify, within your condo.

 

Without plans etc its hard to envisage what you are wanting to do but if its common property its not your decision or option. Any changes to common property, like a roof over an existing car park, a roof over a common area etc, would be a proposal put forward and voted on at the annual meeting.

 

Common property can be modified, added to, upgraded etc, by the mutual agreement of the other co-owners but not if those modification give exclusive use or otherwise change access, appearance, of common property.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by Peterw42

[synetos]

Thanks for your reply.

 

The rooftop area I have IS NOT common property - i understand that it is not allowed if it was.  The rooftop area is exclusively my property and states this within the deeds and titles of the condominium.

 

There is a staircase access from inside my condo up to my rooftop area.  This is the ONLY access and was designed like this for the purchasers of the condo.  On the picture below you can see a pointed roof which is the existing structure and access door / point to the rooftop area.  I just wat to build a wooden roof to shelter from the rain as show on the plans below.

Edited December 15, 2020 by synetos

[synetos]

PERMISSION (1).pdf

[FritsSikkink]

6 minutes ago, synetos said:

PERMISSION (1).pdf 93.6 kB · 0 downloads

I don't see how this is going to improve the worth of the other properties.

Find this a bit strange too:

"I dont know much about this guy and dont want to judge but I was also told he is vehemently racist towards farang." 

You don't want to judge but you declare him a racist on hear say.

[synetos]

1 minute ago, FritsSikkink said:

I don't see how this is going to improve the worth of the other properties.

If building improvements improve the value of my property then this will improve the overall average property prices within the complex.   Granted only slightly but if others see people being able to build which results in increasing property prices then they may also build and this has another small knock on effect on the overall average.

 

 

1 minute ago, FritsSikkink said:

Find this a bit strange too:

"I dont know much about this guy and dont want to judge but I was also told he is vehemently racist towards farang." 

You don't want to judge but you declare him a racist on hear say.

Im trying to give people context into possible reasons why my application may have been rejected.  Ultimately id like to think that the reasons for plans being rejected are around issues to do with legal compliance that i may be unaware of but I will not discount racism as a possibility because it is rife in Thailand.

 

On a side note - your reply is not helpful.

[Peterw42]

I would start be looking at the existing bylaws for the block, there is usually a by-law saying owners cannot modify the exterior of the block, enclose balconies, paint a different color, change windows etc.

 

Theoretically, you own the internal half of the walls, floor, ceiling etc and your neighbours (or common property) owns the other half. Usually the exterior of a condo block is technically common property, it is maintained, repaired by the condo block.

Your situation sounds similar to enclosing a balcony etc, its usually not allowed as per by-laws.

 

 

[phetphet]

If it is your property and stated so in the Chanote. Why do you even need their permission?

 

But another thing you could perhaps try is for either you or your girlfriend to try and  talk to the guy and see what his concerns are.

[Peterw42]

20 minutes ago, synetos said:

PERMISSION (1).pdf 93.6 kB · 0 downloads

Do you have a diagram showing the existing structure ?

[synetos]

3 minutes ago, phetphet said:

If it is your property and stated so in the Chanote. Why do you even need their permission?

 

But another thing you could perhaps try is for either you or your girlfriend to try and  talk to the guy and see what his concerns are.

 

We have tried and he stated he is too busy and does not have to justify his decision.

 

[synetos]

5 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I would start be looking at the existing bylaws for the block, there is usually a by-law saying owners cannot modify the exterior of the block, enclose balconies, paint a different color, change windows etc.

 

Theoretically, you own the internal half of the walls, floor, ceiling etc and your neighbours (or common property) owns the other half. Usually the exterior of a condo block is technically common property, it is maintained, repaired by the condo block.

Your situation sounds similar to enclosing a balcony etc, its usually not allowed as per by-laws.

 

 

 

Thanks Peter - I will look into this as a possible reason.

[synetos]

6 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Do you have a diagram showing the existing structure ?

Not as such but basically the only addition is the wooden roof that is constructed towards the back of the area on the plans. it is just like adding a wooden canopy on stilts as such.  I would also be adding wooden walls to existing concrete walls that are slightly higher to give more privacy (other people have added such walls made of bamboo in other condos)

 

[Surelynot]

Anything that stops someone modifying a condo has my backing......why buy something that needs modifying and will disturb your neighbors for months on end?....ridiculous...

[Dan O]

Check your ownership documents and building by laws.  There may be clauses that say you need permission to alter any structure or gain approval via building code first. If there is no stipulation to either of those and it is clearly your property and on the deed then they really have no standing to control. direct or stop you legally.  make sure it is clear that you own it and it's not just an exclusive  clause  and area. There is a big deifference.   Its a reaIly fine line as you dont want to create an unlivable environment  personally in the building.    If your own it and there's no language about requiring approvals and  he is still demanding a bribe I would be incline record a conversation where he is making the demand with you questioning him politely and drawing out his position and request and what the limits of his approval give you. It is pretty common to have a payment or payment for construction projects to supervisors or managers even though it really is a bribe.  That may give you advantage in position.    a lawyer may be needed just to protect yourself. 

 

[onthedarkside]

Several off topic posts have been removed.

 

[moontang]

Any covered space (except for a carport) is going to be taxed as living space, and that would cause a wave of paperwork at both the JP office and the land office.  Would also change the foreign quota (based on liveable area).  We've got 571 units.. none with altered balconies.. and none with visible ac units... so they are strict about some items. 

 

[kingofthemountain]

2 hours ago, synetos said:

Apologies in advance for the long post but I really need advice on an absurd scenario.

 

I recently bought a condominium with a rooftop - in fact the rooftop was the ONLY reason I bought this condominium.

 

When discussing the purchase with the sales agent, I told him of the ideas I had for making the rooftop into a nicer living space. He informed me that other residents in the building had previously done so, and as such I could also see some other properties within view who had built additional features such as rooftop shades, and higher side wall panels for better privacy.

 

I put some plans together and enquired with the Juristic office about the process I needed to follow to submit my plans and then get approval.  

They gave me the necessary paperwork and told me the procedure.  My plans were to build a wooden structure that basically would provide a further rooftop covering to keep the existing rooftop dry and make the outside space more usable during the wet season and also to add some wooden privacy walls similar to ones I have seen on other properties.

 

On getting the paperwork the staff in the juristic office had expressed that getting permission could take time and that that they would need proper plans (which was my intention anyway as want everything done right)  - and while doing this i got the impression that it didnt matter what i asked they were going to say no anyway as my girlfriend who also lives with me had a small argument with them over a separate issue when we first moved in - then from then they saw her as being rude.  From that moment I told my girlfriend to stay away from the juristic office and let me deal with things. I have been overly polite with them at every opportunity.

 

I employed an architect to design and make proper architectural drawings and also employed a structural engineer to make sure that the existing structure is solid enough to accommodate the additional work I wanted doing (the building is 20 years old and as solid as they come, and I already knew it would be fine but felt getting the structural engineer gives my plans more legitimacy)

 

After talking to a friend who knew some of the staff in the juristic office they had told me that they would approve the plans if I paid a bribe.  Given that I am aware of such "procedures" in some countries I agreed to this (which would be paid once the plans are approved)  

 

After submitting the plans they then still refused the permission to go ahead with the work. 

 

After further enquiries from people I know it seems there is just one juristic officer who has repeatedly caused problems for residents in the condo over many years by refusing almost every request at every opportunity.  I dont know much about this guy and dont want to judge but I was also told he is vehemently racist towards farang.

 

Upon speaking to juristic officers who oversee the other buildings in the complex - they said that if i lived in their building the plans would be approved as they clearly do not present any issues with health and safety, or questionable construction problems or issues for any neighbours etc.  Their advice was to then go to the district office to try to get permission.  However I was also told by my architect and structural engineer that this is something I can do but potentially could create a big drama for every person in the condo complex who has ever done any building work - as the district office would want to review why my plans were refused against the plans of others that were approved - and be a lengthy and costly process.

 

I know that Thailand can be a country with red tape but i now feel like this has become totally ridiculous.  I cannot understand how this person does not see that by me spending money to improve my property it also is good for everyone else because average property prices will increase also. 

 

I have thought to up the bribe offer but at this point im more inclined to try to get these people voted out at the upcoming AGM and propose a vote of no confidence in them as juristic officers - however I am also aware this would make me a target more for them to make my life as difficult as they can should i fail or if they have other connections.

 

My next step would be to consult a lawyer to take on the case - im determined to go ahead with my plans even if it takes me 10 years to do so.

 

Does anyone else have any other advice on how to approach this ?

 

 

You are actually in a dead end. for some reasons (The argument with your GF is probably the root)

the jusristic office has decided  to block your project and i don't see anything able to make them

change their view on this.

 

Considering you can not change the other side of the problem, imo the only solution is to change your 

side, at least you have control on it.

 

I mean if really you just want to use your rooftop, having some protection (Sun, privacy)

and not creating more living area (Increasing the value of your condo, your words)

like on your initial plan. i would go for a ''light'' cheap and removable wood structure 

not visible from the ground.

 

Do it without permission, be discret during the work, taking material in your condo

out of the working hours of the jusristic office and see what happens.

 

Just in case don't let anyone else, except you and your gf entry in your condo, never.

 

Anyway if i am not mistaken building a light removable structure on your property

doesn't require any autorisation if it not modify the comon structure nor the general aspect of the building

 

(On your initial plan is .diffetent as you create another living space, increasing the value of your condo

but changing the number of sqm you own, then the jusristic office should also modify the property code

and the fee repartition and so on, they probably don't want the hassle for the reasons given above)

 

Good luck

The ball will be in their camp, and in the meanwhile you can enjoy your rooftop

Edited December 15, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[synetos]

Thanks so much to the positive replies - it raises a few things that I had not thought about.  

Thanks again.

[synetos]

41 minutes ago, moontang said:

Any covered space (except for a carport) is going to be taxed as living space, and that would cause a wave of paperwork at both the JP office and the land office.  Would also change the foreign quota (based on liveable area).  We've got 571 units.. none with altered balconies.. and none with visible ac units... so they are strict about some items. 

 

The rooftop area is allready counted as livable space on the condo title and deeds and as such my common fee amount that i pay every month goes towards that.  The only way that they could justify this would be if i included stairs up to use the top as a further floor area.  All i am doing is covering the existing floor area which im allready taxed on.

 

The inside area of my condo is 100 sq metres and the upstairs area is around 28 sq metres.  I am paying common fee for 130 s metres each month.

Edited December 15, 2020 by synetos

[synetos]

1 hour ago, Surelynot said:

Anything that stops someone modifying a condo has my backing......why buy something that needs modifying and will disturb your neighbors for months on end?....ridiculous...

 

I think you have seen too many episodes of "Neighbors from hell"  

Would love to see the box you live in with all of its original features. 

 

Also FYI the work will take no more than 3 weeks and I already spoke with the people next door out of politeness and respect and they are fine with it.

[kingofthemountain]

12 minutes ago, synetos said:

The rooftop area is allready counted as livable space on the condo title and deeds and as such my common fee amount that i pay every month goes towards that.  The only way that they could justify this would be if i included stairs up to use the top as a further floor area.  All i am doing is covering the existing floor area which im allready taxed on.

 

The inside area of my condo is 100 sq metres and the upstairs area is around 28 sq metres.  I am paying common fee for 130 s metres each month.

Honestly if i was you i will go for a wood and coton structure to protect from the sun

and a bamboo hedge (Like the others have done) for the privacy

no big cost, no hassle and just enjoy your roof, life is short and

too much worrying and problems can cause health issues on the long term

do it easy, take it easy, Thai style !

https://www.homepro.co.th/p/1068488?lang=th&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3sLjmKXP7QIVzBwrCh2O-gGTEAQYAyABEgLk8vD_BwE

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, synetos said:

 

I think you have seen too many episodes of "Neighbors from hell"  

Would love to see the box you live in with all of its original features. 

 

Also FYI the work will take no more than 3 weeks and I already spoke with the people next door out of politeness and respect and they are fine with it.

Sorry about that ....I'm on one.

 

I do live in a 'box' and the box above me got permission from juristic for two weeks drilling work.....we are now 12 weeks in...9am to 5pm 5 days a week......and that is only because a played merry hell about the out of hours and weekend working.

 

I am close to committing a serious crime...but can't access their floor unless I can get a fingerprint.

 

....and this condo is only 3 years old!!!!!

[synetos]

1 minute ago, Surelynot said:

Sorry about that ....I'm on one.

 

I do live in a 'box' and the box above me got permission from juristic for two weeks drilling work.....we are now 12 weeks in...9am to 5pm 5 days a week......and that is only because a played merry hell about the out of hours and weekend working.

 

I am close to committing a serious crime...but can't access their floor unless I can get a fingerprint.

 

....and this condo is only 3 years old!!!!!

 

Sounds like you could make your own episode - sounds awful so no worries I do understand.  Big difference between 2 weeks and 12 weeks worth of work - if it needed serious construction like that then yes im adverse to it unless totally necessary - especially if its only 3 years old.  I hope it gets sorted quickly for you. 

[topt]

2 hours ago, synetos said:

it raises a few things that I had not thought about.

Do you know people on the Committee - ideally the chairperson?

My understanding is the JP should serve at the behest of the owners via the committee - I know in theory......Any way to influence from that direction?

[synetos]

2 minutes ago, topt said:

Do you know people on the Committee - ideally the chairperson?

My understanding is the JP should serve at the behest of the owners via the committee - I know in theory......Any way to influence from that direction?

 

Thanks, Good advice for sure...someone else mentioned that to me this morning.  As someone new to the complex i only know one other person who lives there who i met in passing but they are trying to make inroads this way for me if it is needed. 

[Surelynot]

2 hours ago, synetos said:

 

Sounds like you could make your own episode - sounds awful so no worries I do understand.  Big difference between 2 weeks and 12 weeks worth of work - if it needed serious construction like that then yes im adverse to it unless totally necessary - especially if its only 3 years old.  I hope it gets sorted quickly for you. 

They have ripped up white, gloss, marble flooring (really is beautiful)....replaced it with I don't know what.......and then started again because the owner didn't like the new floor.......????

[OneMoreFarang]

I remember in "my" high-rise building there were restrictions what can be done on the top floor (balcony). It seems the reasoning was that i.e. window cleaner would use ropes from the top balcony. And I think there were further restrictions because it could be an escape route to the top in case of fire. Obviously I don't know if that is a problem in your case but it might be a reason why they don't approve your plans. 

[richard_smith237]

Just now, OneMoreFarang said:

I remember in "my" high-rise building there were restrictions what can be done on the top floor (balcony). It seems the reasoning was that i.e. window cleaner would use ropes from the top balcony. And I think there were further restrictions because it could be an escape route to the top in case of fire. Obviously I don't know if that is a problem in your case but it might be a reason why they don't approve your plans. 

 

A valid point which would be quite a reasonable reason to prevent a fixed structure being constructed on the roof of a condo building. 

 

However, what clearly stands out is a member of the juristic team has stated he doesn’t need to justify his decision - without a valid reason denying the Ops request the Op has every right to feel aggrieved. 

 

 

 

OP: Follow this arrogant tool to the Ab-Op-Nuat - then present him with photo evidence and threaten to tell his wife !!!

Seriously though, you need ’something on him’... or a ’senior Thai’ with you who this guy will at least listen to so he is forced to acknowledge your request like an adult and not a petulant child. 

 

 

 

 

 

[lkn]

5 hours ago, synetos said:

I put some plans together and enquired with the Juristic office about the process I needed to follow to submit my plans and then get approval. 

 

From section 48 of the Thai Condo Act, you require not less than half the total votes of the joint owners to build, decorate, make a change in, alteration on, or addition to your own unit at your own expenses, when it adversely affect the common property or the external features of the condominium.

You should submit your plans to the next AGM and get the co-owners approval.

 

The only thing the JPM can do here is maybe a) judge whether or not your plans does fall under section 48, and b) whether or not the plans would endanger the safety of other residents or the structure of the building, and deny the plans on these grounds (as the JPM is responsible for the safety of the condominium).

[OneMoreFarang]

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

OP: Follow this arrogant tool to the Ab-Op-Nuat - then present him with photo evidence and threaten to tell his wife !!!

Seriously though, you need ’something on him’... or a ’senior Thai’ with you who this guy will at least listen to so he is forced to acknowledge your request like an adult and not a petulant child. 

Are you serious?

Maybe that would work somewhere back home. But who gives a %$#* about anybody who has a "massage" in Thailand?

And threatening a (more or less) influential Thai is probably the best way to get thrown in jail or deported.

I guess you were not serious but just thinking about that idea is already a very bad idea IMHO.