Thailand Gets New Cyber Crime Law

[Ijustwannateach]

Don't want to be the one to break up the party, but it's still not allowed on the forum to discuss ways to get around the government's blocks (and quite unwise on a whole number of levels including the practical- will leave this as an exercise for the reader). Please don't force us to close this thread.

"Steven"

[thaigene2]

Thailand gets new cyber crime law

The chief immediate effect of the new bill will be to outlaw any attempt to get around government censors to access any of the tens of thousands of sites censored for moral or political purposes, or "to damage the country".

..... including chatroom contacts that lead to rape (OR OTHER THINGS???)

-Bangkok Post

Anyone else want to challenge the thai and chinese-thai elite? Didn't think so. Sleep sound in your expensive condos tonight and ask yourself if you be welcome here 10 or even 5 years from now.

[BlackArtemis]

Just when I got youtube back...

[Ijustwannateach]

On a personal opinion note, as long as the internet is out there as big as it is, and the traffic on it is so huge, it's vanishingly unlikely that anyone will suffer random investigation or persecution. On the other hand, if they have a reason to go after you, it's just another hammer to hit you with. For foreigners, I think there are plenty enough hammers already that another one makes little difference...

[Robski]

I think as foreigners we are unduly concerned, unless as has been mentioned you are running a business and may become liable for the activities of a member of staff.

I would be more concerned if I were a Thai national. This law concerning actions 'harmful' to the state would in my opinion be used to silence the internet activity or even take away the liberty of individuals within Thailand that may be in opposition to the current regime.

Isn't that what military junta's normally do? Silence the opposition to maintain their position.

Edited May 10, 2007 by Robski

[thaigene2]

Yes I think you're both right. But I wonder at what point does the brainwashing wear off on Thais generally - and when do they start taking a run at the rich/elite with sharp machetes? I just watched Ch 7 show the karaoke girl from the south who had her arm chopped off by the jealous cop... the usual tear-jerking kap-hum stuff - but silent on what happened to the police sh+t who did that to her!

When do people say "that's it" - "now we're coming to get you"?

When does the time come when the ill-gotten rich, corrupt filth need to start to worry that their sleeping night-watchman and their little silent alarm won't protect them from their well-deserved cumuppance?

[marquess]

I have hardly seen any mention of this new law in the Thai press, certainly not in the Nation, and not in the international press? Anyway free speech has been dying here for a long time, and this is just another nail in the coffin.

[drenoi]

If in 100 years time there is still the distinction of 1st world and 3rd World Countries, this country will be firmly in the 3rd world. At the moment they (the gov) seem to be doing their best to take things back to the dark ages, and I wish it was joke!

So let it happen! What would you prefer? A second or first world Thailand where the girls have money, don't need you any more and see you for who your really are, an overweight, respect less, beer guzzling sex addict? Also you'll see the amount of baht you get from your disability pension increase!

I think as foreigners we are unduly concerned, unless as has been mentioned you are running a business and may become liable for the activities of a member of staff.

I would be more concerned if I were a Thai national. This law concerning actions 'harmful' to the state would in my opinion be used to silence the internet activity or even take away the liberty of individuals within Thailand that may be in opposition to the current regime.

Isn't that what military junta's normally do? Silence the opposition to maintain their position.

I agree, I doubt that this law will have any affect at all on expats who aren't rapists, paedophiles or scam artists... It's possible it will affect business owners but nothing a little baht can't sort out for sure.

I have hardly seen any mention of this new law in the Thai press, certainly not in the Nation, and not in the international press? Anyway free speech has been dying here for a long time, and this is just another nail in the coffin.

How about an example? I'm sure there are still frequent rallies against the Junta, I haven't seen any reports of protesters being shot with rubber bullets or gassed like in some modern demo-crazies. As far as I can tell free speech here is as good as if not better than any other country in the world these days.

This is just a cyber crime law, there for yours and others' protection, as pointed out Thailand is one of the last to enact such a law.

[tracer]

We respects the privacy of all our visitors, members and clients. Any known information is kept strictly confidential. No information is ever sold or knowingly given out to any third party.

But if you and Thai Visa are in Thailand that doesnt prevent them to say we want this ip or else.... And obviously they would get what they want....

[tracer]

Actually this Mohammed Cartoon thing made me think of a funny episode in Pattaya a couple of weeks ago. One night I was sitting at the "Danish Hamburger" grill eating a hotdog. Next to me were two Arab guys also eating hotdogs, one of them with a thai girl and the other had a very tall katoey. So we got to talk and they were a bit upset about the Mohammed Cartoon, so I asked them "If you believe so hard in Islam, then why do you sit with a Katoey, in a Danish restaurant, eating pork sausage?" - and his answer was... "When its dark - Allah cannot see"

years ago when ramadan was in June, we had a problem with some egyptians being send to Holland to work for me as it got dark very late in the summer...

When could they start eating so my answer was eat as you do at home and if you donot like it we can send you to Anchorage...... (for those who donot know where it is, it means in JUNE that the sun is kind of permanently up....)

[tracer]

All together now - "one step forward three steps back, one step forward three steps back"

rumors say "we got another year of INTERNET USE, then no more". It is the only way for the country to regain a cultural control from foreigner influence. Expect an overall ban on all foregneir websites.

I can't imagine that would ever try to go this far. I'm sure that I am one of many expats here who use "foreign websites" to control my finances. My pension funds and savings are controlled via such a site. My pension and Social Security payments are both sent to a "foreign" bank, from whose website I monitor my funds to control my transfers of funds to Thailand. The Thai mail system being what it is, there is NO FLOCKING WAY that I would have my pension and Social Security payments sent here by mail!

Having been an agent for one of the major isp's in the past, I think thats a very good decission. My mail comes from my own server in the USA and there is no way they would give the Thais any info. What I send out in most cases doesnt bother me but private correspondence gets encrypted. Sending is a problem using a foreign isp as smtp isnt allowed anymore to be outside Thailand. If thats a problem ask them if they have an alternative smtp port.... Obviously as isp's can see what you send the best thing is not to do it in clearly readable mail. Send attachments zipped up etc...

[OlRedEyes]

So their main concern is not really fighting criminality in the Internet, but circumventing the censorship.

Shame!

Wrong. It's not their main concern. It's their only concern.

[tracer]

"The bill regards as a crime the intention to withhold internet protocol (IP) addresses"

that would mean that using proxies to access banned sites is now illegal.

Get your own proxy server. And add a cheap website... that you obviously need to admin every day ... Even better, make it a staunchly pro-thai site.

I know, a little bit expensive and time-consuming, but may now be worth it.

rych

You can browse/ connect in a secure mode. Use commercial gateways which split your data send out in many small bits and pieces and the same way it returns to you.... Run your proxy server on the PC, use an IP changer on your computer (be warned, they donot all work....) etc. There is no way they can make this work properly if people donot like it. BUT it should be realised that while evading this law is easy it also will call attention to those doing it.... By the way there are archives on the web of virtual any website on the web. One of my customers website was deleted by the guy managing it some years ago and I just pulled the latest copy from the archive and noticed to my surprise they had 4 different versions....I also checked at that time some other sites and yes those pron sites are also present... At my age and many years on the net and in Thailand, give me a good book....

[seagullvacations]

Seven farmers killed this morning in the south!! They were learning how to farm more efficiently. They had sons and daughters in collage graduating in three months!!!!! This farce of a government is more willing to spend time and money to make laws to keep the population ignorant and uninformed than they are to stopping what is really killing this country. They exploit the very nature of the Thai peoples non confrontational ways, knowing that little resistance will be mounted against draconian laws like this. Tax payers money and intellect, Thai and expats, must be expended much more wisely if Thailand is to avoid becoming North Korea or Cuba.

[patsfangr]

All together now - "one step forward three steps back, one step forward three steps back"

rumors say "we got another year of INTERNET USE, then no more". It is the only way for the country to regain a cultural control from foreigner influence. Expect an overall ban on all foregneir websites.

I can't imagine that would ever try to go this far. I'm sure that I am one of many expats here who use "foreign websites" to control my finances. My pension funds and savings are controlled via such a site. My pension and Social Security payments are both sent to a "foreign" bank, from whose website I monitor my funds to control my transfers of funds to Thailand. The Thai mail system being what it is, there is NO FLOCKING WAY that I would have my pension and Social Security payments sent here by mail!

Having been an agent for one of the major isp's in the past, I think thats a very good decission. My mail comes from my own server in the USA and there is no way they would give the Thais any info. What I send out in most cases doesnt bother me but private correspondence gets encrypted. Sending is a problem using a foreign isp as smtp isnt allowed anymore to be outside Thailand. If thats a problem ask them if they have an alternative smtp port.... Obviously as isp's can see what you send the best thing is not to do it in clearly readable mail. Send attachments zipped up etc...

I'm not sure you got my point there, Tracer. I meant that there's no way I would have my money sent to me via the "snail mail", as checks. I monitor the activity on websites, then have funds sent to me via wire transfer, using the phone to order said transfers. There's no internet transfer of funds involved. But, as I said, sending money into Thailand via surface mail is just out of the question!

[Hurricane51]

How will they know if someone is using a proxy? Is it really that easy for them to find out?

You first have to make a connection to your ISP BEFORE you access a proxy, so that kind of thing is straightforward (if onerous) to track from the ISP's end.

I suspect that selective enforcement will be the only way they can enforce this, as the sheer volume of users will be impossible to track. They already have identified some proxy sites, but only with obvious URLs, like "freeproxy.com", etc. It will be impossible to block them all, as proxies change addresses and URLs constantly.

They may work backwards by monitoring websites and identifying "offensive" comments, then demand that the ISP do some detective work.

Since the current censorship techniques are hit-or-miss (some sites are accessible and others are mis-identified) I'm sure this is more of a scare tactic than an actual threat to users who want to access sites that pose no threat to the government, i.e. adult content sites. They'll certainly concentrate on what they perceive to be legitimate threats to the administration or repeated attempts to circumvent the measures they put in place to block access. But do you want to risk the chance that you will be caught using a proxy and prosecuted? Is it worth it?

And, like just about every policy change in Thailand, I suspect this is the brainchild of only one official, or at most a small group, and enforcement will fall by the wayside as time passes. However, the law will remain on the books so they can prosecute selectively.

We'll see what, if anything, transpires after the elections. It may be politically impossible to backtrack publicly, but enforcement is another matter.

[OxfordWill]

For the record I can use any smtp server I like from Thailand.. perhaps it is only one ISP which blocks this. Also, if they do, it would not likely be because of government regulation but it is now almost standard practice for ISPs worldwide to force customers to use their own smtp servers. I find this particular aspect less restrictive here.

[navajo]

Thailand gets new cyber crime law

The chief immediate effect of the new bill will be to outlaw any attempt to get around government censors to access any of the tens of thousands of sites censored for moral or political purposes, or "to damage the country".

The government pushed the new law by saying it hopes the bill will provide an effective legal tool to fight cyber crime, including theft of data and chatroom contacts that lead to rape.

-Bangkok Post

[navajo]

How immoral to pass a law like that.

[navajo]

If there is any truth to this then they have just effectively challenged every computer hacker on the planet.

Look out Thailand here it comes!

[Mobi]

I'm not sure you got my point there, Tracer. I meant that there's no way I would have my money sent to me via the "snail mail", as checks. I monitor the activity on websites, then have funds sent to me via wire transfer, using the phone to order said transfers. There's no internet transfer of funds involved. But, as I said, sending money into Thailand via surface mail is just out of the question!

Yes, some of you folk seem to have forgotten about old fashioned telephone banking.

All my bank accounts and investments are internet based, and while I sometimes do carry out transactions over the internet, the key transactions - like remitting funds to my Thai account - are always done by phone, using secure telephone transaction passwords etc. With the ‘008 & 009’ prefixes it’s pretty cheap to do it this way. The snail mail confirmation for transactions, always reaches me with no problems.

If, in the unlikely event that the internet became unavailable for us (and lets face it, that is still a very remote possibility), then I would have some inconvenience, but would still be able to mange all my offshore financial affairs by phone mail, and hopefully, email.

I have been following this thread with interest, and while I, like most, deplore this further proposed intrusion into our daily lives, I have to say that for most, it is probably an over reaction. I personally spend many hours a day on the internet doing this and that, and I doubt that anything in the government’s proposals will in any way affect my activities.

I was given the link to P…. server months ago, and keep getting notified of its ever changing web name, but have never found the need to use it.

OK, if the new regulators start to stifle/censor criticism of the government etc, and force George to hand over our ISP’s etc, then it would be a step too far, but there is little in the current proposals to indicate the measures will be that draconian.

I have every sympathy with those whose businesses who rely on the internet, and no doubt representations will be made to the authorities at the appropriate juncture before the new regulations became law. If it is affecting legitimate farang businesses, it will undoubtedly affect Thai businesses equally.

I would however question a number of ‘home businesses’ here that are operating illegally, and are probably the ones to be most affected. I know of several farangs who operated perfectly ‘respectable’ business from home (internet sales, export etc), and who have now moved to Cambodia, due to the ‘hotting up’ of the visa /work permit situation, and again, while I do have sympathy, you can’t really feel too sorry for people who are already breaking the law. Unfortunately it is Thailand’s loss, but they don’t really seem to be bothered.

Finally, the most worrying aspect to all these recent laws that we get so ‘up in arms’ about, is the fact that they are unlikely ever to be repealed. Thais seem love to pass laws, but are far more laggardly when considering their repeal or amendment. Some of the worst laws controlling press freedom are still on the books from the 1940’s and could be enforced at any time. (Like the power to destroy the printing presses, if the police consider that newspapers are publishing ‘seditious’ news etc). I think part of the reason that laws never get repealed, is the fear of public outcry and unpopularity from ‘interest groups’ if they tried to do so, and anyway most of them are far more interested in power kicks and making money than cleaning up the statute books. (And lets face it, it’s all too hard, and they may come in handy again one day).

The likely scenario is that the most stringent measures will eventually be ‘unofficially relaxed’ at some future date, when the political situation is more stable, but will always be gathering dust, waiting to ‘bite the unwary’ on the whim of some future regime or crusading minister.

Was it ever thus in LOS?

[navajo]

What an immoral act to pass such a law!

[Hurricane51]

if a poster on thai visa posted comments about the government that were less than complimentary

and deemed to be defamatory , and the cyber police came knocking on georges door asking for the identity of the poster , what is the thai visa policy regarding this ?

would thai visa divulge the ip address of the poster ? ..... what is international law on this matter ?

1. I always use free ip numbers since the beginning of internet.

2. with the right program there is no way they can track you down. Ok, you can but from USA....

Thai's? I doubt it as many isp's were setup in the begin with login/passwords NOT encrypted. We checked in via LINUX programs as the servers were obviously ruuning that...

And just how do you get to the Internet in the first place? The ISP gives you a dynamic IP address. THAT thay can track, then they can track where you go next. Any IP address you get after that is meangless if all they want to do is track use of anonymous or elite proxies.

[Alf Witt]

Soon they will have a new law about what people are thinking.

Too late. It already exists. The Thai law about working without a work permit includes exerting mental energy.

So, if you don't have a work permit and you are in the habit of thinking, look out.

Thailand - the hub of unenforceable laws.

[Hurricane51]

For the record I can use any smtp server I like from Thailand.. perhaps it is only one ISP which blocks this. Also, if they do, it would not likely be because of government regulation but it is now almost standard practice for ISPs worldwide to force customers to use their own smtp servers. I find this particular aspect less restrictive here.

I haven't read about any blockinh of SMTP sites. I use an external SMTP server (fastmail.fm).

If anyone has experienced a blocking of external SMTP servers can they post their ISP here?

I read the new law as having two main thrusts:

1. Indentifying those users who violate the government's guidlines of "acceptable" usage of the Internet.

2. Pre-empt users who "might" use the Internet in this way by forbidding the use of anonymous proxies or other methods to mask their "real" IP addresses.

By doing this, they use a broad stroke that criminalizes the attempt to circumvent their identity, reasoning that "innocent" users would notneed to hide their identity.

By the way, I use this same technique to block users who call me with their telephone number blocked from Caller ID. I figure if they don't want me to identify them, then I don't want to talk to them. I don't want to get into a discussion over this practice -- I just find it drastically reduces the amount of crank calls.

[Kyosuken]

Then their transparent proxy should be outlaw too, because most of the time when i visit sites i don't get my real IP but the one from the transparent proxy (funnay ain't it) !

[astral]

For the record I can use any smtp server I like from Thailand.. perhaps it is only one ISP which blocks this. Also, if they do, it would not likely be because of government regulation but it is now almost standard practice for ISPs worldwide to force customers to use their own smtp servers. I find this particular aspect less restrictive here.

You can even run your own smtp gateway. See Argosoft

However I am not sure how this relates to the subject which is blocking of web sites and use of proxies.

[astral]

Then their transparent proxy should be outlaw too, because most of the time when i visit sites i don't get my real IP but the one from the transparent proxy (funnay ain't it) !

A good point.

I was wondering whether I would be breaking the law when I use the internet at the office,

as my company uses a proxy server.

[Sunny Valentine]

To me the published article in Bangkok Post implies that currently there is no valid law that forbids the use of Proxies. Can someone shed a light at the current legal situation on this (without breaking the Forum rules of voluntary self-censorship, of course)?

Sunny

[Kyosuken]

Well a proxy by definition isn't illegal (it's like "hack tools" they aren't either) the side effect is that it's used for illegal purpose, a proxy is first and foremost a cache to improve browsing on Internet period. If they want really to chase after the bad "guys" they should concentrate on people (not companies) using encrypted tunneling, but well it will hard to prove anything in this case