Residence & Tax Residency

[mikeythai]

Hello to all,

I am about to start working now in Thailand.

Can you please help me if somebody knows

1) Can I get Residence & Certificate of Residence ? (To say that Mike is a resident of Thailand)? I assume not yet, but when? (i am on non-immigrant visa).

2) Can I get a TAX residency certificate immediately after I will spend 6 whole months in Thailand for the same year? (so a certificate that will say Mike is a Tax Resident of Thailand etc)?

 

Thank you

[jackdd]

14 minutes ago, mikeythai said:

1) Can I get Residence & Certificate of Residence ? (To say that Mike is a resident of Thailand)? I assume not yet, but when? (i am on non-immigrant visa).

If you are talking about permanent residency status:

Afaik if not married the minimum time you need to have been working in Thailand is 5 years. Then you can apply for permanent residency (if you satisfy the other requirements like minimum salary 80k etc.), and it will take another year or so to be approved.

If you are talking about the certificate of residence required to buy a car or get a driving license:

You can get this at your local immigration office, most offices issue it to everybody including tourists.

 

20 minutes ago, mikeythai said:

2) Can I get a TAX residency certificate immediately after I will spend 6 whole months in Thailand for the same year? (so a certificate that will say Mike is a Tax Resident of Thailand etc)?

Never heard of a "tax residency certificate", but after you paid tax you should get a paper stating that you paid tax.

[foreverlomsak]

Never heard or seen such things.

Part of the tax residency requirements come from your home country, and part from your country of domicile (i.e. live).

I have been here for 15 years, have been employed by a number of schools during that time, was registered for Thai Tax, but have never been made aware of Tax Residency Certificate.

If you live in Thailand for more than 180 days in a year you are classed as a Thai tax resident, and as such your income (in Thailand) is subject to Thai Tax, this is an awkward area, if I understand correctly US Tax Returns must show all income irrespective of source and is subject to US tax laws (I'm waiting to be corrected by an informed US Citizen).

UK are not interested in your Thai income however the UK-Thailand Double Taxation Agreement does appear to mean that you could be taxed in Thailand for some types of income (private pensions) in the UK.

 

[tomazbodner]

31 minutes ago, mikeythai said:

Hello to all,

I am about to start working now in Thailand.

Can you please help me if somebody knows

1) Can I get Residence & Certificate of Residence ? (To say that Mike is a resident of Thailand)? I assume not yet, but when? (i am on non-immigrant visa).

2) Can I get a TAX residency certificate immediately after I will spend 6 whole months in Thailand for the same year? (so a certificate that will say Mike is a Tax Resident of Thailand etc)?

 

Thank you

Hmm... tax residence is subject to your home country's rules as well. In my case my home country would make me tax resident there if:

- I had permanent residence there

- Spent at least 180 days in calendar year there

- Owned any real-estate or company there

- Was working for a company from there or worked so that my salary was paid there

- Received any rent or alike income in that country

- Supported anyone in that country or getting supported by anyone in that country (relatives and such)

 

So if you were from my homeland, you would not qualify until you got at least PR in Thailand, which takes years. But then again, maybe your country has different rules. Check with the tax residency rules in your home country first.

[mikeythai]

I am from Europe and my country (France) needs a tax residency certificate every year from every country I am at, so then I am not obliged to make tax declaration and not taxed at all in France.

In UK is different, they simply look at your entries / exists of your passport and if its less than x days (depends if you have family) you are automatically out of the tax scope for the same year.

In France you need simply a paper (and NOT be in france 183 days - they check somehow) from any country that you are more than 183 days and pay tax, so you get this paper and give to french tax authorities and you're not obliged for any tax at all.

Tax residence has nothing to do with normal residence (permanent or temporary residence). 

The question is. If I start working now when I can go at the tax office and get the tax residence certificate? This same year (2021, after 183 months in country?) or I have to wait for next year.

Because for France that will be a critical issue, they need the paper on same year.

So noone knows as I understand ? ????

 

 

[beano2274]

your employer can give you such a letter,  if you need to prove that you have been in Thailand for 180 days or more.

[beano2274]

if i remember correctly after 180 days in Thailand you can go to the Tax Office and ask for a Tax number, and start paying Tax, this Tax Number should be sufficient for the French authorities. This is what most people working under the Radar do, just in case some Thai person gets a little jealous and wants to report them.

[mikeythai]

4 minutes ago, beano2274 said:

if i remember correctly after 180 days in Thailand you can go to the Tax Office and ask for a Tax number, and start paying Tax, this Tax Number should be sufficient for the French authorities.

no for my case they need Tax Residency Certificate 100% ????  Yes I need 183 days to start pay tax, the question is WHEN they will issue this certificate to me?

some countries (i.e. I worked in Spain a few years), they issue it the next year .. For example if I was moving to Spain now for work, I'd take it March 2022, which would cause issues to my French authorities.

thank you

[tomazbodner]

You should request tax ID as soon as you start working and start paying taxes as you'll have to declare all income of this year early next year anyway. If France accepts so easy way to avoid paying taxes there, the sooner you get that, the better.

 

As for certificate - I did not request it, and had to prove that I don't match anything that would make me tax resident there. But I would guess you could ask this question when you create a tax ID at local revenue office of your workplace area.

[mikeythai]

30 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

You should request tax ID as soon as you start working and start paying taxes as you'll have to declare all income of this year early next year anyway. If France accepts so easy way to avoid paying taxes there, the sooner you get that, the better.

 

As for certificate - I did not request it, and had to prove that I don't match anything that would make me tax resident there. But I would guess you could ask this question when you create a tax ID at local revenue office of your workplace area.

1) I will have to declare all income i make IN THAILAND early next year, right? 

2) What if I will not be in Thailand next year (99,99% possible?)

3) France does not accept THAT easy, unfortunatelly, this is a prerequisite part of all the rest (including I'm not in France more than 170 days per year, which i'm not at all).

4) I didn't get your last sentence "and had to prove that I don't match anything that would make me tax resident there", you mean in your country (citizenship), right? Indeed every country have different rules.

Thank you

Mike

[tomazbodner]

5 minutes ago, mikeythai said:

1) I will have to declare all income i make IN THAILAND early next year, right? 

2) What if I will not be in Thailand next year (99,99% possible?)

3) France does not accept THAT easy, unfortunatelly, this is a prerequisite part of all the rest (including I'm not in France more than 170 days per year, which i'm not at all).

4) I didn't get your last sentence "and had to prove that I don't match anything that would make me tax resident there", you mean in your country (citizenship), right? Indeed every country have different rules.

Thank you

Mike

You would pay the tax monthly deducted from your salary and would need to declare it within April 1 of the next year for this year. You'd then either overpay or underpay or pay just the right amount. But you still need to make por ngor dor 91 declaration. It can be done over the internet. If you have any special deductions, they would ask you to attach the digital copies of stuff to your tax report. Once done, however, if overpaid, your overpaid amount would be sent to PromptPay or a letter would be sent to you which you'd have to take to KTB bank and get an ATM card from them (it's not standard ATM card, some eMoney or something like that) from where you could then withdraw returned cash.

 

The last, yes, it was for my country of citizenship. They had so many points you had to tick before being off the hook...

[Fab5BKK]

I'm sure, MikeyThai,  you're aware that Residency Law(s) and Fiscal Residency Law(s) are quite complex.

 

However, the main criteria are constant and similar (cf. DT & DT agreements).

 

1. France 

This, easy-to-read, article summarize the situation regarding French Residency (for tax reasons):

https://www.welcometofrance.com/en/determination-of-tax-residence

 

Extracts:

Tax residency is not a matter of choice; it depends on internal regulations or reciprocal agreements and treaties.

Irrespective of nationality, you will be considered to be resident in France for tax purposes if one of the following criteria is met:

• Your permanent place of residence is in France, i.e. your habitual place of residence or that of your family (spouse and children).
• If you have dual permanent residence, the center of your financial and personal interests is in France.
• If your center of interests cannot be determined, your primary place of residence is in France (residence in France for more than 183 days in the same year).
• In the absence of any other deciding criteria among the above (primary place of residence or no place of residence in either country), your tax residence will be in France if you hold French nationality.
• Failing which, the tax authorities in the two countries may be asked to decide upon your tax residency.

People in France who are not tax residents are only taxed on income from French sources.

Residents of France are taxed on the entirety of their income earned from French sources or from foreign sources.

International tax treaties may also provide for specific arrangements.

 

 

2. UK

You wrote "In UK is different, they simply look at your entries / exists of your passport and if its less than x days (depends if you have family) you are automatically out of the tax scope for the same year".

 

I spent more than 10 years based in the UK and, being an EU citizen, UK Borders never stamped my passports... luckily, because I was visiting 2 or 3 countries per week (in and/or outside the EU)! ;-)

Therefore, when I was doing my annual Self Assessment Tax Return, in addition to the standard forms and the non-residence forms, I kept, on my side, a detailed list of my travels with a copy of Airline Tickets, Boarding Passes and Travel Expenses Claims.

 

Hope it'll help

 

[mikeythai]

3 hours ago, Fab5BKK said:

I'm sure, MikeyThai,  you're aware that Residency Law(s) and Fiscal Residency Law(s) are quite complex.

 

However, the main criteria are constant and similar (cf. DT & DT agreements).

 

1. France 

This, easy-to-read, article summarize the situation regarding French Residency (for tax reasons):

https://www.welcometofrance.com/en/determination-of-tax-residence

 

Extracts:

Tax residency is not a matter of choice; it depends on internal regulations or reciprocal agreements and treaties.

Irrespective of nationality, you will be considered to be resident in France for tax purposes if one of the following criteria is met:

• Your permanent place of residence is in France, i.e. your habitual place of residence or that of your family (spouse and children).
• If you have dual permanent residence, the center of your financial and personal interests is in France.
• If your center of interests cannot be determined, your primary place of residence is in France (residence in France for more than 183 days in the same year).
• In the absence of any other deciding criteria among the above (primary place of residence or no place of residence in either country), your tax residence will be in France if you hold French nationality.
• Failing which, the tax authorities in the two countries may be asked to decide upon your tax residency.

People in France who are not tax residents are only taxed on income from French sources.

Residents of France are taxed on the entirety of their income earned from French sources or from foreign sources.

International tax treaties may also provide for specific arrangements.

 

 

2. UK

You wrote "In UK is different, they simply look at your entries / exists of your passport and if its less than x days (depends if you have family) you are automatically out of the tax scope for the same year".

 

I spent more than 10 years based in the UK and, being an EU citizen, UK Borders never stamped my passports... luckily, because I was visiting 2 or 3 countries per week (in and/or outside the EU)! ????

Therefore, when I was doing my annual Self Assessment Tax Return, in addition to the standard forms and the non-residence forms, I kept, on my side, a detailed list of my travels with a copy of Airline Tickets, Boarding Passes and Travel Expenses Claims.

 

Hope it'll help

 

Many thanks @Fab5BKK I am not married, not kids and dont stay in France; That's why I am not tax resident of france.

 

I don't understand this "In the absence of any other deciding criteria among the above (primary place of residence or no place of residence in either country), your tax residence will be in France if you hold French nationality."

 

Regrading the first three, the primary center is sure out of France and is where I leave always. But to fulfil this I need the tax residence certificate every single year.

 

So that's the question. If I move in Thailand, I need this paper this year after 6 months (when I will complete the 183 days in Thailand). 

Are they going to give it to me or I will have to wait next year to do the process you mention and ask it this time.

 

And something else. As I read, if you are tax resident of thailand, any worldwide income is not taxed as long as you will not bring it in thailand. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

Thank you

Mike

[userabcd]

11 hours ago, mikeythai said:

Hello to all,

I am about to start working now in Thailand.

Can you please help me if somebody knows

1) Can I get Residence & Certificate of Residence ? (To say that Mike is a resident of Thailand)? I assume not yet, but when? (i am on non-immigrant visa).

2) Can I get a TAX residency certificate immediately after I will spend 6 whole months in Thailand for the same year? (so a certificate that will say Mike is a Tax Resident of Thailand etc)?

 

Thank you

You can get a tax residence certificate if you pay tax and are resident in Thailand.

 

Through your job you pay taxes.

If you are 180 day or over in the tax calendar year in Thailand

 

At the end of the calendar tax year you go to RD and fill in an application for tax residence, this form requires evidence of your tax submission, tax payment receipt, and evidence in your passport that you were more than 180 days in Thailand, copies of everything must be attached to the application.

 

Rd send this info to their central RD office dealing with tax residency and it takes about 2 weeks to get the certificate issued and then you collect and sign for it. It is valid for only one year.

 

[userabcd]

6 hours ago, mikeythai said:

Many thanks @Fab5BKK I am not married, not kids and dont stay in France; That's why I am not tax resident of france.

 

I don't understand this "In the absence of any other deciding criteria among the above (primary place of residence or no place of residence in either country), your tax residence will be in France if you hold French nationality."

 

Regrading the first three, the primary center is sure out of France and is where I leave always. But to fulfil this I need the tax residence certificate every single year.

 

So that's the question. If I move in Thailand, I need this paper this year after 6 months (when I will complete the 183 days in Thailand). 

Are they going to give it to me or I will have to wait next year to do the process you mention and ask it this time.

 

And something else. As I read, if you are tax resident of thailand, any worldwide income is not taxed as long as you will not bring it in thailand. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

Thank you

Mike

 

Many thanks @Fab5BKK I am not married, not kids and dont stay in France; That's why I am not tax resident of france:

 

No, just because you are out of France for more than 180 days does not automatically render you non resident for tax. It depends on your domicile, ordinary residence, permanent residence, tax registration, paying taxes, work, place of your home, visa/permission to stay in a country, your future intentions for returning to France etc...

 

Your 2nd para....I don't understand this:

It is quite easy, where are your central base of interests, do you have bank accounts in France, are you paying for things in France using those bank accounts, do you have a French home and is it rented out or not, how often do you visit France and the frequency, period and length of stay of your visits, what is the purpose of those visits, family ties, are your intentions return to France after your stay/work living abroad etc...

 

Normally it would be needed to prove this with your French tax office. If you do not satisfy one or some of the above the French tax authority may consider you to still be still be tax resident in France.

 

You can be tax resident in two countries and pay taxes in two jurisdiction and claim relief from double taxation through a DTA.

 

Any money earned abroad in the year it was derived and remitted to Thailand should be declared and taxes paid if  taxes were not already paid elsewhere.

 

If income was remitted to Thailand and taxes paid elsewhere then you declare this on a tax return and claim relief on the taxes paid elsewhere under the DTA between Thailand and France.

 

Suggest you contact your tax authority in France to determine your tax residence as a first step.

 

There is lots of info a available online from the big accounting firm and from the countries tax departments.

 

If you have doubt then suggest you consult with a specialist tax accountant or tax lawyer in France and Thailand concerning tax residence and paying taxes in two jurisdictions.

 

[mikeythai]

3 hours ago, userabcd said:

 

Many thanks @Fab5BKK I am not married, not kids and dont stay in France; That's why I am not tax resident of france:

 

No, just because you are out of France for more than 180 days does not automatically render you non resident for tax. It depends on your domicile, ordinary residence, permanent residence, tax registration, paying taxes, work, place of your home, visa/permission to stay in a country, your future intentions for returning to France etc...

 

Your 2nd para....I don't understand this:

It is quite easy, where are your central base of interests, do you have bank accounts in France, are you paying for things in France using those bank accounts, do you have a French home and is it rented out or not, how often do you visit France and the frequency, period and length of stay of your visits, what is the purpose of those visits, family ties, are your intentions return to France after your stay/work living abroad etc...

 

Normally it would be needed to prove this with your French tax office. If you do not satisfy one or some of the above the French tax authority may consider you to still be still be tax resident in France.

 

You can be tax resident in two countries and pay taxes in two jurisdiction and claim relief from double taxation through a DTA.

 

Any money earned abroad in the year it was derived and remitted to Thailand should be declared and taxes paid if  taxes were not already paid elsewhere.

 

If income was remitted to Thailand and taxes paid elsewhere then you declare this on a tax return and claim relief on the taxes paid elsewhere under the DTA between Thailand and France.

 

Suggest you contact your tax authority in France to determine your tax residence as a first step.

 

There is lots of info a available online from the big accounting firm and from the countries tax departments.

 

If you have doubt then suggest you consult with a specialist tax accountant or tax lawyer in France and Thailand concerning tax residence and paying taxes in two jurisdictions.

 

regarding: It is quite easy, where are your central base of interests, do you have bank accounts in France, are you paying for things in France using those bank accounts, do you have a French home and is it rented out or not, how often do you visit France and the frequency, period and length of stay of your visits, what is the purpose of those visits, family ties, are your intentions return to France after your stay/work living abroad etc...

 

Yes, I have bank accounts in France to save a 10% of my money and pay the expenses of an apartment I have but noone stays there. no family, visiting 1-2 times per year for 2 weeks just to visit, no family ties, no intentions at all to return to france again. 

 

Regarding If income was remitted to Thailand and taxes paid elsewhere then you declare this on a tax return and claim relief on the taxes paid elsewhere under the DTA between Thailand and France.

 

What if I get income from 0% offshore around the world and never get the amounts to Thailand ? As I asked I'd never have to pay tax for those amounts as a tax resident of Thailand as long as I don't get the income inside Thailand for the first year (not planning to get them even the second year into Thailand).  As I'm not tax resident of France, I only have to declare the local (France) income there (which i don't have).

 

Thank you

Mike