Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

funny re spelling,

maany would consider EU as more appalling then the UK ..., hmm

 

 

Without wishing to cast shade on your bon mot, the basic point you make is also a good one. 

 

I can't deny that there appears to be a reasonable minority in independence supporters who also see the EU as the devil incarnate. It also seems, for some, dependence in the UK is preferable to an equal seat at the table in Brussels. Just goes to show that independence supporters are not the mindless sheep that the opposition tries to portray them as. 

[JonnyF]

28 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

my guess is that the vast majority of the current EU member states would consider themselves as independent

and sovereign

 

 

Well, I've met many expats in Thailand that consider themselves charming and intelligent. Just like these EU member states, empirical evidence would suggest that they are very much mistaken ????.

[JonnyF]

39 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

What's with putting words in my mouth to try to shore up your non existent argument? 

 

The reality is that we, as a country, consider the EU a more appealing option than the UK. You may not understand that point, but you don't have to. Its irrelevant what you think. 

I understand your point. You don't like Westminster (a euphemism for the English) and prefer to take your rules from Brussels.

 

But will you accept that joining the EU and abiding by the rules and regulations set by Brussels does not mean Scotland will be independent? I've asked 3 times now. An honest answer rather than a deflection this time please.

[youreavinalaff]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Yes, they are your feelings. That is all they are. They do not trump the feelings of the vast majority of Scots who disagree with you. 

A quick check of the polls. 58% of those polled in Scotland were in favour of independence. Hardly a vast majority.

 

SNP were showing a majority of 51%. Hardly a vast majority and also their lowest point for some months now. 

 

Both figures from polls taken on 13th January.

[melvinmelvin]

22 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Well, I've met many expats in Thailand that consider themselves charming and intelligent. Just like these EU member states, empirical evidence would suggest that they are very much mistaken ????.

 

that was quite a mouthfull,

 

empirical evidenc suggests that those who feel they stem from an indep/sover country are mistaken . . .

 

Hello small bear, which is your fav. colour today?

today it is blue!

you are wrong, it is orange!

 

[melvinmelvin]

28 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

A quick check of the polls. 58% of those polled in Scotland were in favour of independence. Hardly a vast majority.

 

SNP were showing a majority of 51%. Hardly a vast majority and also their lowest point for some months now. 

 

Both figures from polls taken on 13th January.

 

a lot less than 58 sufficed for Brexit . . . .

 

[vogie]

22 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

a lot less than 58 sufficed for Brexit . . . .

 

Yes exactly, but in the same breath, we had only one referendum for Brexit, and in the first Scottish referendum showed that 55% voted to remain and only 44% to leave. So unless you are entrusting your 'evidence' on possible manipulated polls, there is no comparison.

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

A quick check of the polls. 58% of those polled in Scotland were in favour of independence. Hardly a vast majority.

 

SNP were showing a majority of 51%. Hardly a vast majority and also their lowest point for some months now. 

 

Both figures from polls taken on 13th January.

If 58% is "hardly a vast majority", how can 52% be an overwhelming victory?

 

PH

[youreavinalaff]

4 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

a lot less than 58 sufficed for Brexit . . . .

 

 

3 hours ago, Phulublub said:

If 58% is "hardly a vast majority", how can 52% be an overwhelming victory?

 

PH

I don't believe I have commented to the contrary. 

 

I was merely questioning the terminology of a post.

[Phulublub]

1 minute ago, youreavinalaff said:

 

I don't believe I have commented to the contrary. 

 

I was merely questioning the terminology of a post.

You personally may very well not have.  But numerous Brexiteers (and I know not if you are one) have said as much.  I was merely comparing and contrasting the two numbers and conclusions.

 

PH

[JonnyF]

3 hours ago, Phulublub said:

If 58% is "hardly a vast majority", how can 52% be an overwhelming victory?

 

PH

Define vast. Define overwhelming.

 

I'd say 1.3 million extra votes is enough. That's about 30% of Scootland.

[tebee]

When hearing brexiers talk about Scottish independence, I can help thinking about this cartoon - 

 

 

  

[NanLaew]

6 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Johnson, speaking on STV yesterday during his panic trip to Scotland, says 'you can't have a referendum without a clear constitutional picture in advance'. 

 

Is this an example of living and learning? 

 

I think the only person panicking about Johnson's recent foray north of the border was the First Minister with her petulant suggestion that it was 'inappropriate' due to the current pandemic and wasn't essential or work-related travel. With the May Scottish election looming large in their rear-view mirror, the SNP's claim that the PM's visit was purely political is as disingenuous as it is laughable.

 

So, back to Johnson's suggestion that a "clear constitutional picture" is required, has anyone seen the SNP at art classes lately?

[NanLaew]

6 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

The reality is that we, as a country, consider the EU a more appealing option than the UK.

 

I opine that your 'reality' is commonly called a stretch.

[NanLaew]

5 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

A quick check of the polls. 58% of those polled in Scotland were in favour of independence. Hardly a vast majority.

 

Give him his due, compared to the Brexit mandate that was carried by a mere 4%, this is colossal.

 

For a poll I mean.

[NanLaew]

7 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Whatever your feelings about the EU, they are irrelevant in the future of an independent Scotland. 

 

Why don't you tell Nicola Sturgeon that and then get back to us with her answer.

[NanLaew]

6 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

6 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

funny re spelling,

maany would consider EU as more appalling then the UK ..., hmm

 

 

Without wishing to cast shade on your bon mot, the basic point you make is also a good one. 

 

I can't deny that there appears to be a reasonable minority in independence supporters who also see the EU as the devil incarnate. It also seems, for some, dependence in the UK is preferable to an equal seat at the table in Brussels. Just goes to show that independence supporters are not the mindless sheep that the opposition tries to portray them as.

 

Is this not more of a case o' the de'il you know?

 

Meanwhile, with May elections just a spring thaw away (unless you're in Aviemore), and the COP26 business in Glasgow in November, it appears that the SNP's pressing need to get the Greens onside (again) has been addressed.

Scotland to end overseas promotion of fossil fuels

Environmental campaigners have welcomed proposals from Scottish government to “end all Scottish Government overseas trade backing and promotion activities solely focused on fossil fuel goods and services by COP26.”

 

https://foe.scot/press-release/scotland-to-end-overseas-promotion-of-fossil-fuels/

 

In the meantime, never EVER forget, it's Scotland's oil...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

44 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

I think the only person panicking about Johnson's recent foray north of the border was the First Minister with her petulant suggestion that it was 'inappropriate' due to the current pandemic and wasn't essential or work-related travel. With the May Scottish election looming large in their rear-view mirror, the SNP's claim that the PM's visit was purely political is as disingenuous as it is laughable.

 

So, back to Johnson's suggestion that a "clear constitutional picture" is required, has anyone seen the SNP at art classes lately?

 

Because Johnson entering Castlemilk was like Jesus entering Jerusalem on Palm Sunday? 

[RuamRudy]

38 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

I opine that your 'reality' is commonly called a stretch.

Opine 'til your heart's content, my friend. It won't change reality but it might make you feel temporarily at ease. 

[RuamRudy]

16 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

Is this not more of a case o' the de'il you know?

 

Meanwhile, with May elections just a spring thaw away (unless you're in Aviemore), and the COP26 business in Glasgow in November, it appears that the SNP's pressing need to get the Greens onside (again) has been addressed.

Scotland to end overseas promotion of fossil fuels

Environmental campaigners have welcomed proposals from Scottish government to “end all Scottish Government overseas trade backing and promotion activities solely focused on fossil fuel goods and services by COP26.”

 

https://foe.scot/press-release/scotland-to-end-overseas-promotion-of-fossil-fuels/

 

In the meantime, never EVER forget, it's Scotland's oil...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Has Nontabury hijacked your account or have you recently decided to test out the Facebook? 

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

6 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

a lot less than 58 sufficed for Brexit . . . .

 

 

5 hours ago, Phulublub said:

If 58% is "hardly a vast majority", how can 52% be an overwhelming victory?

 

PH

I don't believe I have commented to the contrary. 

 

I was merely questioning the terminology of a post.

 

I'll give everyone credit for not claiming a "landslide" either way.

[NanLaew]

47 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Because Johnson entering Castlemilk was like Jesus entering Jerusalem on Palm Sunday? 

 

Close.

[NanLaew]

46 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Opine 'til your heart's content, my friend. It won't change reality but it might make you feel temporarily at ease. 

 

It's your reality that's questionable but I agree, there's no chance of those scales falling.

[NanLaew]

50 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Has Nontabury hijacked your account or have you recently decided to test out the Facebook? 

 

No, no. Nothing so quaintly esoteric. Just four pints of draught Leo.

 

That and Google.

[Sujo]

10 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

I'll give everyone credit for not claiming a "landslide" either way.

Or scotland could just ge allowed to vote for what they want which would settle it.

[NanLaew]

16 minutes ago, Sujo said:

28 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

I'll give everyone credit for not claiming a "landslide" either way.

Or scotland could just ge allowed to vote for what they want which would settle it.

 

Seems simple enough but what precisely constitutes' 'scotland' in your somewhat vague solution?

[sharksy]

17 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

If we were 1 of 4 equal partners, we would not have had Brexit with a 50/50 split in wanting it. There is nothing equal in the UK. England gets what England wants, no matter how destructive of idiotic it may be. The other countries in the Union have no option but to be dragged along despite their objections. 

Not True.  Wales voted for Brexit.

Had Wales gone the other way, Brexit wouldn't have occurred.

[sharksy]

14 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

Actually if you include Gibraltar 3 states were against.

Very True.  Actually, Gibraltar has benefitted hugely as a result of Brexit.

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, NanLaew said:

 

Yes, I read it and I discounted the relevance of the comparison as you perceive it. I am not a Malta expert, the closest being working with some Maltese in the middle east but their location slap bang in the middle of the "middle sea", and thus having faster and easier access to the three markets I mentioned, has been a significant enabler in their great good fortune... in addition to probably getting all sorts of freebies from the EU. I can accept that you will also disagree with that.

 

"Location , location, location!..." As they say in Holyrood.... sorry Hollywood.

Since when was location a prerequisite to EU membership?

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, RayC said:

 

 I agree. I'm not a supporter of referendums in general but, in this case, I cannot see any alternative to holding another . My hope is that it results in an overwhelmingly majority for one side. Another 52% - 48% split will cause the debate to rumble on.

 

He has a lot to answer for.

 

 

This is one point where I fear we are never going to agree. The number of MPs by constituent country at Westminster is almost exactly proportional to the size of its' electorate. Approximately 83% of the UK population live in England and they are represented at Westminster by about 83% of the total number of MPs. It is inevitable - and imo fair and equitable - that MPs representing English constituencies dominate at Westminster.

 

 

Sorry, I don't understand your point.

 

 

From my perspective, whether such a move opened a door to a fairer referendum format is completely irrelevant. Imo any such move would be a disaster. Rather than lead to a US of GB/NI,  I believe that it would lead to the break-up of not just the UK but also England. The UK is already fractured; imo such a move will only make matters worse.

 

 

We started with an agreement, so it's good to be able to finish with one.

Thank you for such a reasoned response.

Regarding the referendum format, if you look at other countries that indulge in referendums you will find that they also have a requirement that includes a percentage of the states involved. On reflection I think the analyst may have meant England being broken up for result purposes only.

I fully understand that MPs in the house are determined by population distribution, but it means the devolved nations effectively have no say. In matters that may affect one nation more than others England will always predominate, and Scotland is now suffering from decisions taken by MPs that are not their own. A bit like the UK complaining about the EU parliament, and we know how that was resolved.