7 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

So are you saying if the total % number of votes in the EU referendum was 52% remain 48% leave the UK would have left the EU because the majority of English votes were for leave

I can only take it you have little understanding on the laws of probability.

12 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I can only take it you have little understanding on the laws of probability.

I suspect that  every  person that voted in the 2016 EU referendum wanted their side to win

and the slogan through out the whole of the UK was every vote counts this is a once in a lifetime vote since the last vote was 41 years ago

2,679,513 people in Scotland voted I don't any of them thought it was a forgone conclusion that the UK would leave the EU irrespective of the result

Most people I know if they know that a vote has been rigged in favour of an outcome they disagree with , then they don't vote

5 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

I didnt insult anyone.

I asked you if you think Brexit is a stupid idea.

You are dancing on the head of a pin and trying to imply I called Brexiteers stupid. I did not.

 

I don't know what you are dancing on, or with.

 

However, there was a referendum. You called the result "stupid". How did the result come about? 

2 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

I don't know what you are dancing on, or with.

 

However, there was a referendum. You called the result "stupid". How did the result come about? 

 

Good grief.

OK lets try this.

Do you think Brexit is a good idea?

Yes or no?

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Always what suits the English, there are no member nations of the so called union, only devolved regions of England.

Whatever people want to think, the fundamental flaws are not going to go away.

Not thoughts. Facts.

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Good grief.

OK lets try this.

Do you think Brexit is a good idea?

Yes or no?

As this thread has shown, it is virtually impossible to say if a political stance is "good" or "bad" in it's entirety.

 

There are hints, even from the Scottish nationalists on here, that Scottish independence is not going to be a bed of roses.

 

Brexit happened. Different people voted different ways according to their views on certain aspects. I would doubt that many felt "good" or "bad" about the whole thing.

 

Brexiteers and remainers alike are making their thoughts known. However, two months after the event is far too soon to decide whether it was a "good" or "bad" thing to happen.

 

I prefer to use experiences and facts to come to a conclusion. Rather that calling a decision "stupid" based on perceived foresight, predictions and general claptrap.

 

For all of the above reasons, it would be impossible for me to answer your question with a definitive answer.

 

Let's just wait and see, hopefully without one group calling the other group "stupid". 

 

Personally, I think Scotland may struggle as an independent country. However, as I have stated all along, I have now objection to Scotland giving it a go. If Indyref2 happens and the vote is "leave" then so be it. Bye bye and good luck. I certainly won't be branding anyone as "stupid" just because of the way they voted.

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Unfortunately our government chose one of the most disastrous routes to vaccination. How many thousands of lives might not have been lost if we had a competent, credible government led by a competent, credible Prime Minister?

 

It is massively important that we do not lose sight of the reality of their utter intransigence and incompetence while we all cheer the vaccination program. There must be a thorough public enquiry into the calamitous failings of Johnson and his corrupt cabinet and they must be held fully to account for each one of those people who have died because they failed in their duty.

Compared to the EU It has made them look like what they are so often are. Incompetent and back stabbing.

 

As for public inquiries, I hope you are loving the spectacle in the SNP and Scottish parliament at the moment. Sammond's and Sturgeon. What a comedy show that is and soon to get better.

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

On the other hand if the UK had acted more responsibly there wouldn't have been a significant loss of life and the desperation for the vaccine in the first place.

Every gambler gets a win now and again, it is what keeps them going.

Much better than the EU. Even the Germans agree the UK have done a much better job. It just seems the Scottish nationalists on here would never admit to that.

4 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I suspect that  every  person that voted in the 2016 EU referendum wanted their side to win

and the slogan through out the whole of the UK was every vote counts this is a once in a lifetime vote since the last vote was 41 years ago

2,679,513 people in Scotland voted I don't any of them thought it was a forgone conclusion that the UK would leave the EU irrespective of the result

Most people I know if they know that a vote has been rigged in favour of an outcome they disagree with , then they don't vote

Highlights how little you understood the point. I never mentioned anything about foregone conclusions or about votes being rigged.

I will say it again,

"When 85% of a sample is from the same source, the outcome is effectively predetermined, "

 

Under the laws of probability the outcome from the 15% will do little to change that of the 85%, in other words, any national vote in the UK will be determined by the views held in England.

 

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Much better than the EU. Even the Germans agree the UK have done a much better job. It just seems the Scottish nationalists on here would never admit to that.

I have never disputed the UK vaccine rollout has been a great success story. You however do not want to acknowledge how that came about and the prior cost in human misery.

Good luck rather than good judgement.

BTW Refrain from implying something that is not true.

2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

As this thread has shown, it is virtually impossible to say if a political stance is "good" or "bad" in it's entirety.

 

There are hints, even from the Scottish nationalists on here, that Scottish independence is not going to be a bed of roses.

 

Brexit happened. Different people voted different ways according to their views on certain aspects. I would doubt that many felt "good" or "bad" about the whole thing.

 

Brexiteers and remainers alike are making their thoughts known. However, two months after the event is far too soon to decide whether it was a "good" or "bad" thing to happen.

 

I prefer to use experiences and facts to come to a conclusion. Rather that calling a decision "stupid" based on perceived foresight, predictions and general claptrap.

 

For all of the above reasons, it would be impossible for me to answer your question with a definitive answer.

 

Let's just wait and see, hopefully without one group calling the other group "stupid". 

 

Personally, I think Scotland may struggle as an independent country. However, as I have stated all along, I have now objection to Scotland giving it a go. If Indyref2 happens and the vote is "leave" then so be it. Bye bye and good luck. I certainly won't be branding anyone as "stupid" just because of the way they voted.

 

OK so you are a Brexiteer but simply do not wish to admit it. So I was right.

Also please point out where I called anyone stupid?

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I have never much cared for the man - he is, like Blackford, all bluster and puffed chest, albeit with more charisma. But he has a significant fan base, and numbers are what counts. 

 

I agree with you though, that lessons need to be learned from 2014, and I definitely don't want to go to indyref2 clutching the sort of lies and empty rhetoric that won Brexit. Fool me once, shame on you, as they say. 

 

I trust the SNP to deliver on the 'how' questions - there are some very credible characters within it, such as Mike Russell, who's reasoned arguments seem to appeal to a broad spectrum of people. That he is standing down in May is a loss to the Scottish Government and the Scotland overall, but I understand that he will still play a very active role in the SNP as a senior advisor. 

 

What Salmond could do is draw significant numbers of list votes away from the SNP, which is a good thing. Their success in the regional count negatively impacts their results in the constituency counts, so if there was a sure fire independence option, it may see us get rid of the likes of Annie Wells, the Tory MSP who is living in the taxpayers' pocket despite getting only 8% of the vote at the last election. Or Murdo Fraser, another Nasty Party leech who has been in Holyrood for what seems like forever but never having actually won an election. 

 

If a credible List only independence party can emerge and remove these people from office, that would be a much better outcome than what we have now. 

The current situation is not doing anyone any good and only highlights how Alex Salmond is more concerned about personal interest rather than that of Scotland.

The referendum and independence are 2 separate issues. The English parliament dissolved the Scottish parliament and created a constitution that suited themselves. If historical wrongs cannot be put right, women would not be allowed to vote.

I have no doubt there is a percentage of the Scottish population that would welcome the opportunity to express their wish to remain in the UK. It is well past the time that Scotland had it's own voice in the way forward.

Independence however is something else and for that to stand any chance there has to be a comprehensive plan and trust in the leadership to enact that plan successfully. Unfortunately trust is looking quite volatile at the moment. There may be a bit more clarity after NS has spoken next week.

2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Not thoughts. Facts.

Yes, fundamental flaws in respect of the devolved nations are certainly facts.

You thinking they will go away doesn't however make it a fact.

26 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Highlights how little you understood the point. I never mentioned anything about foregone conclusions or about votes being rigged.

I will say it again,

"When 85% of a sample is from the same source, the outcome is effectively predetermined, "

 

Under the laws of probability the outcome from the 15% will do little to change that of the 85%, in other words, any national vote in the UK will be determined by the views held in England.

 

Well if we apply your laws of probability to the 2014 Scottish independence referendum when the difference between the yes and no vote was 383, 937 votes

You have to ask the question as to why the  Scottish Government allowed 

1) rest of uk citizens resident in Scotland approx numbers 474,000 laws of probability would suggest they are more than likely to vote against independence

2) EU citizens resident in Scotland numbers in Scotland approx 121,0000 laws of probability would suggest they are more than likely to vote against independence

3) commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland numbers approx numbers  89,000 laws of probability would suggest they are more than likely to vote against independence

When you add the total of these 3 groups you get 684,000 which if you remove from the no vote leaves a total number of votes for no at 1,317, 926 versus yes vote numbers of 1,617,989 giving the yes vote a majority of 300,063

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

46 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

OK so you are a Brexiteer but simply do not wish to admit it. So I was right.

Also please point out where I called anyone stupid?

Oh dear. Selective reading at it's best.

 

You failed to understand why I would not call Brexit stupid.

 

It sounds like you would. Therefore,if an idea is stupid then it would be correct that those with that idea are stupid.

 

My post quite clearly shows that I have both reservations and optimism regarding Brexit. If you feel this makes me a Brexiteer then so be it. However, I will give you the satisfaction of confirming that I did not vote for Brexit.

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Much better than the EU. Even the Germans agree the UK have done a much better job. It just seems the Scottish nationalists on here would never admit to that.

 

A better job at what? The tories spent a full year messing up. There are thousands of people who are dead who would not be dead if we had a more competent and less corrupt prime minister.

 

We have absolutely nothing to feel smug about when it comes to covid response. This lionising of Johnson is truly nauseating and shameful. 

19 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Well if we apply your laws of probability to the 2014 Scottish independence referendum when the difference between the yes and no vote was 383, 937 votes

You have to ask the question as to why the  Scottish Government allowed 

1) rest of uk citizens resident in Scotland approx numbers 474,000 laws of probability would suggest they are more than likely to vote against independence

2) EU citizens resident in Scotland numbers in Scotland approx 121,0000 laws of probability would suggest they are more than likely to vote against independence

3) commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland numbers approx numbers  89,000 laws of probability would suggest they are more than likely to vote against independence

When you add the total of these 3 groups you get 684,000 which if you remove from the no vote leaves a total number of votes for no at 1,317, 926 versus yes vote numbers of 1,617,989 giving the yes vote a majority of 300,063

You really should stop digging, or maybe you do not see a difference between a regional and national referendum.

7 hours ago, sandyf said:

Delusional concept, there will always be a difference of opinion.

When 85% of a sample is from the same source, the outcome is effectively predetermined, the English vote to leave was 53.38%.

The devolved nations were nothing more than a propaganda exercise.

Wales voted to leave.  So that makes it half of the UK nations.

34 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You really should stop digging, or maybe you do not see a difference between a regional and national referendum.

Thanks I do know the difference between a  regional and national referendum.

As I am not a resident in Scotland I am not eligible to take part in any of the Scottish regional referendum.

But as a British citizen living in the UK I did take part in the 2016 EU  referendum national  referendum

3 minutes ago, sharksy said:

Wales voted to leave.  So that makes it half of the UK nations.

 

Wales voted to leave - Wales gets to leave

England voted to leave - England gets to leave

NI voted to stay - NI gets a special deal

Gibraltar voted to stay - Gibraltar gets a special deal

Scotland voted to stay - Scotland is forced to leave

 

A very powerful message being successfully pushed north of the border. 

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Wales voted to leave - Wales gets to leave

England voted to leave - England gets to leave

NI voted to stay - NI gets a special deal

Gibraltar voted to stay - Gibraltar gets a special deal

Scotland voted to stay - Scotland is forced to leave

 

A very powerful message being successfully pushed north of the border. 

Rather silly post.  NI and Gibraltar have land borders with the EU, so of course border issues will occur, requiring special deals.
 

1 minute ago, sharksy said:

Rather silly post.  NI and Gibraltar have land borders with the EU, so of course border issues will occur, requiring special deals.
 

 

Nothing silly about it at all. It is a message which resonates strongly with voters north of the border; as simple as that. 

Scotland asked for variations and was told this was not possible, and that it would need to take what was decided elsewhere.

NI and Gib have shown that variations in the form Brexit takes is entirely possible, and that the English Brexit is not the only flavour of Brexit. 

30 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Wales voted to leave - Wales gets to leave

England voted to leave - England gets to leave

NI voted to stay - NI gets a special deal

Gibraltar voted to stay - Gibraltar gets a special deal

Scotland voted to stay - Scotland is forced to leave

 

A very powerful message being successfully pushed north of the border. 

Incorrect, once again.

 

The UK voted to leave. 

Just now, youreavinalaff said:

Incorrect, once again.

 

The UK voted to leave. 

 

Sorry mate, but me and the vast majority of my country refuse to accept any responsibility whatsoever for your country's stupid and small minded isolationism. England and Wales must wear that cloak of shame for eternity, no matter how much you try to say we are all in this together. 

39 minutes ago, sharksy said:

Rather silly post.  NI and Gibraltar have land borders with the EU, so of course border issues will occur, requiring special deals.
 

so when it's convenient all is well.... hummm interesting concept

35 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Nothing silly about it at all. It is a message which resonates strongly with voters north of the border; as simple as that. 

Scotland asked for variations and was told this was not possible, and that it would need to take what was decided elsewhere.

NI and Gib have shown that variations in the form Brexit takes is entirely possible, and that the English Brexit is not the only flavour of Brexit. 

Scotland could not have it's requested variations accepted otherwise England could not use the fishing rights as a bargaining deal.... BJ played them (Scots) all along

Just now, Mavideol said:

Scotland could not have it's requested variations accepted otherwise England could not use the fishing rights as a bargaining deal.... BJ played them (Scots) all along

As he did with the fishermen!

38 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Sorry mate, but me and the vast majority of my country refuse to accept any responsibility whatsoever for your country's stupid and small minded isolationism. England and Wales must wear that cloak of shame for eternity, no matter how much you try to say we are all in this together. 

Our country "mate". The UK. No matter how much you try to dress it up, facts are facts. UK voted to leave EU. Simple.

52 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Incorrect, once again.

 

The UK voted to leave. 

but Scotland didn't

 

Which is why Scotland needs to take back control and gain independance.

16 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Our country "mate". The UK. No matter how much you try to dress it up, facts are facts. UK voted to leave EU. Simple.

 

Yeah, you keep pushing that narrative if you like; doesn't make any difference - you broke it, not us.