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GAVIN ESLER: Like most Scots of my generation, I have several identities. Born in Scotland, I am from a Scottish and Ulster unionist family stretching back to the 17th Century.  I live in England and am a Londoner by choice, although I have lived in all three other capital cities - Edinburgh, Belfast and Cardiff. I'm Scottish when watching rugby or football, British when watching the Olympics and feel European walking the streets of Berlin, Salzburg or Rome. I place more emphasis on one or other of these identities depending on circumstances.

 

31 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

As Leopold Amery said to Neville Chamberlain "In the name of God, go". 

 

If you let only the English vote on Scots independence, you would get 99% supporting it.

 

It's the English that are preventing it. Scotland returned 48 independence minded MPs out of 59. If it was in our power, we would be gone.

 

But our wishes are being denied by English MPs, so bleat as much as you like about wanting rid of us - the reality is that it is the English who are preventing us from going. 

18 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

What's a Scot, Irish person etc? Over the years we've lived as one and therefore I doubt you'd find a true national in any of the UK. Is Sturgeon a full blooded Scot?  

 

Celts?

The Scots were a tribe originally from Ireland. They brought across with them whiskey (bless 'em) and bag-pipes (damn their hides).

But, you are generally correct if you go by DNA. It's more a cultural thing now.

23 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

What's a Scot, Irish person etc? Over the years we've lived as one and therefore I doubt you'd find a true national in any of the UK. Is Sturgeon a full blooded Scot?  

 

 

Unlike the English nationalism, the Scottish variant is often referred to as civic nationalism. That is why so many English people in Scotland are part of the independence movement. 

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

It's the English that are preventing it. Scotland returned 48 independence minded MPs out of 59. If it was in our power, we would be gone.

 

But our wishes are being denied by English MPs, so bleat as much as you like about wanting rid of us - the reality is that it is the English who are preventing us from going. 

 

You got it wrong, then right and then wrong again. It's the MPs holding you back. As I said in my post if it was put to the vote to just the English etc.

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Unlike the English nationalism, the Scottish variant is often referred to as civic nationalism. That is why so many English people in Scotland are part of the independence movement. 

 

So, you don't remember Scots coming out of the cinemas after watching Braveheart finding the nearest Englishman to beat up? Very civic, eh?

Just now, KarenBravo said:

 

You got it wrong, then right and then wrong again. It's the MPs holding you back. As I said in my post if it was put to the vote to just the English etc.

 

Maybe they understand better than you the parlous future an independent England would face without its cash cow to suckle off. 

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

It's the English that are preventing it. Scotland returned 48 independence minded MPs out of 59. If it was in our power, we would be gone.

 

And who is preventing Berwick from returning back to the Scottish?  Can they haver a referendum also?

 

Quote

The border more or less stands to this day, with the obvious exception of Berwick-upon-Tweed, retaken for the final time by the English in 1482. The tug of war between England and Scotland has seen the border town change sides 13 times.

 

 

Just now, KarenBravo said:

 

So, you don't remember Scots coming out of the cinemas after watching Braveheart finding the nearest Englishman to beat up? Very civic, eh?

 

No, I don't. 

1 minute ago, KarenBravo said:

Braveheart

And an American played the lead role.

Just now, RuamRudy said:

 

Maybe they understand better than you the parlous future an independent England would face without its cash cow to suckle off. 

Cash cow? I don't think so.

https://theferret.scot/claim-scotland-pays-out-more-than-gets-back-false/

 

Details on the amount of tax raised in Scotland and public spending can be found in the General Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland (GERS) report published by the Scottish Government.

The most recent figures available are for the year 2018-19.

In that year, the report shows that taxes paid in Scotland amounted to £62.7 billion including a geographic share of North Sea oil and gas revenue.

The GERS report also provides figures for public spending in Scotland.

Total public spending for Scotland by both the Scottish Government and the UK government in 2018-19 was estimated at £75.3bn.

Therefore public spending for Scotland exceeded the tax raised in Scotland by £12.6bn in that year. Spending has outstripped revenue from Scotland since around 1990, although in recent years the gap has decreased.

2 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

And an American played the lead role.

 

.....and it was total fiction, too.

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

No, I don't. 

 

Just one example.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12334014.braveheart-attackers-judged-to-be-cowards/

2 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

Cash cow? I don't think so.

https://theferret.scot/claim-scotland-pays-out-more-than-gets-back-false/

 

Details on the amount of tax raised in Scotland and public spending can be found in the General Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland (GERS) report published by the Scottish Government.

The most recent figures available are for the year 2018-19.

In that year, the report shows that taxes paid in Scotland amounted to £62.7 billion including a geographic share of North Sea oil and gas revenue.

The GERS report also provides figures for public spending in Scotland.

Total public spending for Scotland by both the Scottish Government and the UK government in 2018-19 was estimated at £75.3bn.

Therefore public spending for Scotland exceeded the tax raised in Scotland by £12.6bn in that year. Spending has outstripped revenue from Scotland since around 1990, although in recent years the gap has decreased.

You are forgetting the fact that the UK has a record deficit, and its only growing. 

 

But answer me this - why are politicians so desperate to deny the Scots independence if it would benefit England? 

1 minute ago, KarenBravo said:

 

Just one example.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12334014.braveheart-attackers-judged-to-be-cowards/

And one example defines 60% of my country? That's a very objective perspective you have there. 

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You are forgetting the fact that the UK has a record deficit, and its only growing. 

 

But answer me this - why are politicians so desperate to deny the Scots independence if it would benefit England? 

 

The deficit has nothing at all to do with what monies Scotland gives and receives.

Something as silly as breaking up Great Britain and the UK on their watch. That's just a guess.

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

But answer me this - why are politicians so desperate to deny the Scots independence if it would benefit England? 

They gave the Scots a referendum and they voted to remain in the UK. A 'once in a lifetime' vote. That 'lifetime' isn't up yet just cuz the Nationalists lost.

On 1/14/2021 at 10:53 AM, Mavideol said:

how can he refuse, what goes around comes around, the UK wanted to leave the EU and the EU let them, now Scotland wants to leave the UK and,  based on the UK democracy free willing, free movement,  the UK has to let them go, fair is fair    555

Rubbish. The referendum was labelled " a chance of a lifetime" by both sides.

 

The EU referendum was labelled similarly. Scotland tried to get another one. Up there's. Som nam na.

 

Anyway, if they do get another chance, when push comes to shove they will vote "NO".

19 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

It's the English that are preventing it. Scotland returned 48 independence minded MPs out of 59. If it was in our power, we would be gone.

 

But our wishes are being denied by English MPs, so bleat as much as you like about wanting rid of us - the reality is that it is the English who are preventing us from going. 

Erm....NO. Look at the independence vote. I think you'll find it was a majority of Scots that prevented you from leaving.

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

And one example defines 60% of my country? That's a very objective perspective you have there. 

Did I claim that?

OK, forget that point. Exactly who is calling it civic nationalism? Let me guess. The SNP?

Civic nationalism just means nationalism without resorting to violence.

There are extremists in every cause.

Any comment on the link I supplied showing Scotland receives more than it pays out?

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2017/04/extreme-scottish-nationalists-hunting-lapdogs-and-traitors

2 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Erm....NO. Look at the independence vote. I think you'll find it was a majority of Scots that prevented you from leaving.

 

Look at the vote again. I KNOW you will find that the majority of Scots voted for independence in 2014.

 

However the vote was swung to No by non Scots to whom the franchise was extended. 

 

Majority of Scots-born voters backed independence

2 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

Civic nationalism just means nationalism without resorting to violence

No, that's simply your failure or refusal to understand. Keep up with your Google searches though. 

Just now, RuamRudy said:

 

Look at the vote again. I KNOW you will find that the majority of Scots voted for independence in 2014.

 

However the vote was swung to No by non Scots to whom the franchise was extended. 

 

Majority of Scots-born voters backed independence

Squeeze it as much as you like. The vote was "NO". Next you'll be saying all those with "Mac" or "Mc" in their name voted NO. Or those who eat haggis voted "NO".

 

The majority of voters voted NO. Simple. Get over it.

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Look at the vote again. I KNOW you will find that the majority of Scots voted for independence in 2014.

 

However the vote was swung to No by non Scots to whom the franchise was extended. 

 

Majority of Scots-born voters backed independence

 

You guys made the rules, so, I guess you'll have to live with the result.

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2021 at 7:09 PM, Psimbo said:

Well they can get their MPs out of Westminster while they are at it. Now they have their own Parliament <deleted> are they still doing in Westminster anyway? Talk about having your cake and eating it.

 

'We want independence but want back in the EU where we will do what we are told'. Anybody else spot that oxymoron?

 

They HAD a referendum and it was defeated. Are we now in a world where we keep having referenda until the 'right' result is achieved? 

We are in a world where if all the promises to keep you in the union are broken, you can change your mind.

There own parliament has hardly anything to say as they only get a very small budget compared with the money they poor into the union. They have nothing to say in Westminster as it is effectively an English parliament. 

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

No, that's simply your failure or refusal to understand. Keep up with your Google searches though. 

.....at least I'm providing links to back up my position. You've posted one from The Courier?

3 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Squeeze it as much as you like. The vote was "NO". Next you'll be saying all those with "Mac" or "Mc" in their name voted NO. Or those who eat haggis voted "NO".

 

The majority of voters voted NO. Simple. Get over it.

That is true, unlike your previous post, which was wrong. 

3 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

.....at least I'm providing links to back up my position. Are you?

A newstatesman opinion piece is hardly objective fact. You are providing biased polemic which isolates single incidents and equates them to an entire political movement, ignoring the reality on the ground.

Scottish

27 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Unlike the English nationalism, the Scottish variant is often referred to as civic nationalism. That is why so many English people in Scotland are part of the independence movement. 

 

Scottish Nationalism: Great.

Irish Nationalism:  Wonderful and Romantic.

Welsh Nationalism:  To be encouraged.

EU Nationalism: Great, but don't mention it.

French Nationalism: Yep great.

English Nationalism: Terrible, Evil.

British Nationalism:  Doesn't exist anymore.

(Unknown author)

 

 

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Look at the vote again. I KNOW you will find that the majority of Scots voted for independence in 2014.

 

However the vote was swung to No by non Scots to whom the franchise was extended. 

 

Majority of Scots-born voters backed independence

Scots living overseas or elsewhere in the UK should have been given the right to vote in the independence referendum

Its Strange that nearly 1 million Scots living in England,Wales and overseas were denied a vote

Even the famous ones such as Sean Connery and everyone knows which way he would have voted if he wasn't denied a vote

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/63345/1/democraticaudit.com-Scots living overseas or elsewhere in the UK should have been given the right to vote in the independ.pdf