Earthing a freezer.

[up2you2]

Sometimes when I go to take something out of my chest freezer, I get a real electric shock.
I know it's because it isn't earthed, my question is there any other alternative, than embedding a copper pole in the ground, and linking it with a copper cable to the fridge freezer?

[Crossy]

Not really, assuming you don't have grounded 3-pin outlets a rod is the correct solution.

 

That said, if you have access to building steel or metal water pipes they can provide a "good enough" earth.

 

[Dazinoz]

I purchased a brand new fridge a couple years ago. All  metal casing but no earth. Plenty of earth designated connections on the back. I thought it would be my luck if i rewired with a three pin earth plug so would go wrong and my warranty voided so I ran an earth wire from a connection on the back and cable tied to the existing cable and put a three pin plug with only the earth connected. Not 100% safe but much more than what it was and warranty not voided.

[Scott Tracy]

I would suggest that if you're still alive, that it's not an earth problem but a static problem. 

 

If you still intend to go down the road of earthing the appliance, ensure no extension lead, or , 3  core extension lead if used. Ensure that the socket has the facility for earth. Otherwise, direct earth cable from the cabinet to a copper rod deeply embedded in the soil. Preferably keeping the soil damp enough to ensure good conductivity.

 

If you are lucky enough to have metal water pipes, that's good, but in my experience, plastic pipes are what are commonly installed.

 

All my sockets seem to have an earth cable. Not sure where the earth is after the consumer unit, but the shower heaters have an individual earth cable, and most of my appliances seem to have 2 pin plugs, or 3 pin plugs on 2 core cables. 

I know elsewhere, double insulation exists in domestic appliances so no earth is required, or facility provided on the appliance.

 

 

[Dazinoz]

26 minutes ago, Scott Tracy said:

I would suggest that if you're still alive, that it's not an earth problem but a static problem.

Bad advice. I have an electrical back ground and have received many electrical shocks in my working life and still alive and believe me they were electrical shocks not static.

 

Advice like this can lead people to have a false sense of safety "oh someone on TVF said only static so must be safe".

Edited February 10, 2021 by Dazinoz

[Oldie]

Nowadays it does not make sense to earth anything. Buy a RCD for instance. 

 

In respect of your problem it might help to turn the plug around. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Oldie

[Oldie]

3 minutes ago, Oldie said:

Edit went wrong ... 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Oldie

[Dazinoz]

7 minutes ago, Oldie said:

Nowadays it does not make sense to earth anything. Buy a RCD for instance. 

 

In respect of your problem it might help to turn the plug around. 

Seriously?

[Oldie]

1 minute ago, Dazinoz said:

Seriously?

Yes! 

[Dazinoz]

1 minute ago, Oldie said:

Yes! 

Sad and very misinformed

 

[Oldie]

Why? An example. My aircons were under power even when switched off - you got an electric shock when you touched them. The reason was very simple - the live wire and the neutral wire were installed not correctly. And it is the same with some devices if they are not plugged in correctly. 

[Dazinoz]

Just now, Oldie said:

Why? An example. My aircons were under power even when switched off - you got an electric shock when you touched them. The reason was very simple - the live wire and the neutral wire were installed not correctly. And it is the same with some devices if they are not plugged in correctly. 

May I ask what electrical back ground you have?

 

[The Theory]

"In respect of your problem it might help to turn the plug around." 

 

It is a true statement, but it does not mean that the fridge does not need to be Earthed. In the US plugs have one pin wider than the other pin. The wider pin is "load" and can be plugged if the wide pin goes to the wider hole in the outlet. There is no way to be connected in wrong way (unless the electrician connected the wires wrong way inside the outlet. Load to load and neutral to neutral. But in Thailand easily possible to be connected reverse. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Rimmer
font corrected

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, Oldie said:

Nowadays it does not make sense to earth anything. Buy a RCD for instance. 

Absolutely totally wrong and extremely dangerous advice.

 

it is correct to not earth a product that is double insulated.
 

You are giving dangerous stupid advice to not earth class 1 devices. 
 

You clearly  don’t understand earthing and what & how you should & should not earth a item. Your advice can cause death in the worst case. You could be lucky and never find a situation where a shock or corpse is a result.

 

I don’t claim to have an in depth knowledge of electrical installation  but I do know not to give advice beyond my knowledge.

[whaleboneman]

5 hours ago, Dazinoz said:

May I ask what electrical back ground you have?

 

Thai electrician?

[Crossy]

9 hours ago, Oldie said:

Nowadays it does not make sense to earth anything. Buy a RCD for instance. 

In respect of your problem it might help to turn the plug around. 

 

Operating a Class-1 appliance with no earth and just an RCD/RCBO as shock protection is at best "unwise", at worst it could prove fatal.

 

An RCD/RCBO will NOT prevent you from receiving a shock!! What it will do is, hopefully, disconnect the supply before you die!

 

"Hopefully" because the 30mA trigger current (it's not a current limit) and 30ms disconnection time were chosen because they would not prove fatal to 90% of healthy adults whilst minimising false tripping. The old, young and infirm may not have the same tolerance and could die even if the RCD operates.

 

Grounding the metalwork of a Class-1 appliance will ensure that in the event of a L-E fault any protection device will operate without any current passing through you.

 

The tingle our OP is feeling probably isn't a fault, most modern appliances have mains filters which place capacitors between the supply lines and earth. If the metalwork isn't actually connected to earth it floats to about 50% of mains, hence the tingle, the current is very small (1-2mA), far too small to trip an RCD.

 

You are correct in the statement that turning the plug round may help, but it's not a correct fix.

 

[Oldie]

3 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

An RCD/RCBO will NOT prevent you from receiving a shock!! What it will do is, hopefully, disconnect the supply before you die!

 

"Hopefully" because the 30mA trigger current and 30ms disconnection time were chosen because they would not prove fatal to 90% of healthy adults whilst minimising false tripping. The old, young and infirm may not have the same tolerance and could die even if the RCD operates.

 

Grounding the metalwork of a Class-1 appliance will ensure that in the event of a L-E fault any protection device will operate without any current passing through you.

 

The tingle our OP is feeling probably isn't a fault, most modern appliances have mains filters which place capacitors between the supply lines and earth. If the metalwork isn't actually connected to earth it floats to about 50% of mains, hence the tingle, the current is very small (1-2mA), far too small to trip an RCD.

 

You are correct in the statement that turning the plug round may help, but it's not a correct fix.

 

I understand that some appliances should have earth. But here in the big condo complex where I stay I don't know anyone that has it. Do new condo buildings here have this? 

[Crossy]

14 minutes ago, Oldie said:

Do new condo buildings here have this?

 

There has been a requirement for grounded outlets and RCD's in the Thai regulations for a number of years (RCDs since 2016, I'm not sure about grounding but certainly before 2010), the installation shouldn't pass MEA/PEA inspection without.

 

That said, I've still seen new builds with 2-pin outlets and no earth with "approved" permanent supplies, evidently quite a lot of tea is still being bought.

 

The "inspection" is pretty rudimentary anyway. Our man looked at the distribution board with the cover off and checked that we had a ground rod and told me I couldn't have a 63A incoming breaker on a 15/45 meter, it had to be 50A. The rest of the 30 minute visit was spent gassing with my wife and drinking tea (actual tea, no tea money involved). I did swap the incomer although they never checked when they installed the permanent meter, it's back to 63A now.

 

Some useful information here :-

 

[ifmu]

10 hours ago, Oldie said:

Nowadays it does not make sense to earth anything. Buy a RCD for instance. 

 

In respect of your problem it might help to turn the plug around. 

thats interesting  .. so what you mean is that the two wire is directional AND that the rcd will not work if backwards .. ? correct   thanks .. 

 

 

[bankruatsteve]

37 minutes ago, ifmu said:

thats interesting  .. so what you mean is that the two wire is directional AND that the rcd will not work if backwards .. ? correct   thanks .. 

 

 

Not correct.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

The "inspection" is pretty rudimentary anyway. Our man looked at the distribution board with the cover off

With us it was even more rudimentary. It consisted of a chat to SWMBO about high school times, family etc (she was at school with the local PEA boss who came along himself) and a single question “did you use Somchai [generic Thai name to protect the guilty] for your install”  answer “No” =  Finish of “inspection“

[Oldie]

1 hour ago, ifmu said:

thats interesting  .. so what you mean is that the two wire is directional AND that the rcd will not work if backwards .. ? correct   thanks .. 

 

 

No. The RCD has nothing to do with how you plug something in. It simply measures if their is a difference in incoming and outgoing power flow. But at some devices you might feel on the surface very small electricity. Then try to turn around the plug.

 

In any case everything that is plugged in should be plugged in with the correct phase. Especially things with a switch like for instance power strips could give you a shocking experience if the phases are not correct. But this experience is not limited to power strips. At my condo I have marked all sockets and plugs so that it is clear where the live wire is. 

[Dazinoz]

2 minutes ago, Oldie said:

No. The RCD has nothing to do with how you plug something in. It simply measures if their is a difference in incoming and outgoing power flow. But at some devices you might feel on the surface very small electricity. Then try to turn around the plug.

 

In any case everything that is plugged in should be plugged in with the correct phase. Especially things with a switch like for instance power strips could give you a shocking experience if the phases are not correct. But this experience is not limited to power strips. At my condo I have marked all sockets and plugs so that it is clear where the live wire is. 

That answers my question as to what electrical background you have. 

 

 

[KKr]

20 hours ago, The Theory said:

"In respect of your problem it might help to turn the plug around." 

 

It is a true statement, but it does not mean that the fridge does not need to be Earthed. In the US plugs ???? have one pin wider than the other pin. The wider pin is "load" and can be plugged if the wide pin goes to the wider hole in the outlet. There is no way to be connected in wrong way (unless the electrician connected the wires wrong way inside the outlet. Load to load and neutral to neutral. But in Thailand easily possible to be connected reverse. 

Indeed, for example, I have a few permanently glowing led lights.
Also, even some, a bit dated, computer equipment like my iMac may tingle a bit when touched and reversing the plug definitely helps.

[Dazinoz]

35 minutes ago, KKr said:

Also, even some, a bit dated, computer equipment like my iMac may tingle a bit when touched and reversing the plug definitely helps.

My aluminium body iMac used to give me small shocks when I stood on floor with no shoes. House was not earthed. I drove an earth stake in the ground out the front and ran cable to water heater previously. So I continue cable to power outlet for computer and shocks stopped.

[brianthainess]

On 2/10/2021 at 7:38 PM, Dazinoz said:

On 2/10/2021 at 7:30 PM, Oldie said:

Nowadays it does not make sense to earth anything. Buy a RCD for instance. 

 

In respect of your problem it might help to turn the plug around. 

Seriously?

Actually turning the plug around does work, but I wouldn't go as far to say it makes no sense to to earth anything, I have an RCD and was getting a shock from an electric BBQ it didn't trip the RCD a Thai guy that was present turned the plug problem solved,(have fitted a 3 pin plug now) your guarantee probably only covers the compressor unit anyway so just fit a 3 pin plug. IMO. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by brianthainess

[Dazinoz]

7 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

Actually turning the plug around does work, but I wouldn't go as far to say it makes no sense to to earth anything, I have an RCD and was getting a shock from an electric BBQ it didn't trip the RCD a Thai guy that was present turned the plug problem solved,(have fitted a 3 pin plug now) your guarantee probably only covers the compressor unit anyway so just fit a 3 pin plug. IMO. 

My "seriously?" was aimed at his "Nowadays it does not make sense to earth anything" comment.

[brianthainess]

1 minute ago, Dazinoz said:

My "seriously?" was aimed at his "Nowadays it does not make sense to earth anything" comment.

So was mine.

[up2you2]

Some further details have emerged, regarding the source of this electrical current coming off my chest freezer.
Seemingly in the same fuse box, one of the leads goes to my outside water pump.
First off an electrician, established that this was confirmed source of the problem.
Next up the pump man has also agreed that this is the source, but to remedy it, he is requiring over 4,000 Baht, which I believe includes parts.

So my question is here, could in fact a water pump, be creating a feedback to the fuse box, and then in turn to the chest freezer please?

[Surelynot]

I often wonder about the earth socket in Thai properties....do they really go to earth? Much cheaper not to bother.