Bitcoin / Ozzies abroad

[scorecard]

Lots of reports re bitcoin etc., and I've discovered here in Oz many people are 'investing', including people working day jobs (under retirement age) and pensioners/folks retired on fixed incomes etc., etc.

 

My immediate thought is taxation.

 

I've asked many folks how they handle the tax matter, most have replied:

 

' Not an issue until you sell and make capital gains over a very substantial number of AU$', then must be disclosed on next annual personal tax return and appropriate tax paid'.

 

And, folks on OAP or similar very frightened to get involved because of random checks by ATO, which could mean deep investigation of assets and income, then cancellation/reduction of pension payments. And possibly Centrelink demanding past pension payments be returned to Oz gov't.

 

Any comments appreciated, thanks.

 

 

[donnacha]

It is just another asset. You report as part of your regular tax return when you transfer your profits back to your Australian bank account. Nothing complicated about it.

It is not really an investment, more of a hedge against the likely debasement of regular currencies over the next few years. My advice is to take only a small portion of your net worth, maybe 10%, and stick it into Bitcoin or, maybe, Ethereum. Ignore all the other coins unless you know what you are doing.

If there is rapid devaluation of the regular currencies Bitcoin is likely to go up quite a bit. Your profits there will balance out the loses you make on any cash your are holding. Worth noting that currency devaluation is also likely to increase the value of any property or other assets you own. In my opinion, Bitcoin will continue outpacing gold, silver, and all other asset classes but, again, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

 

[LosLobo]

2 hours ago, donnacha said:

My advice is to take only a small portion of your net worth, maybe 10%, and stick it into Bitcoin or, maybe, Ethereum.

Punters who bought Ethereum two weeks ago would not agree with your advice. Current prices would indicate a 20% loss. Maybe not good advice for Aussies on the pension. 

[donnacha]

17 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

Punters who bought Ethereum two weeks ago would not agree with your advice. Current prices would indicate a 20% loss. Maybe not good advice for Aussies on the pension. 

This is a tough to explain to people but, if your investment period is two weeks, you need to stay the Hell away from crypto.

When we say that an asset is highly-volatile, it means that there are massive swings every week, even when things are going well. The reason why we stick with such assets is because the general trend, over the courses of months and years, is impressively profitable.

If you bought Ethereum 3 months ago you are currently up 300%.

If you bought 6 months ago you are currently up 500%.

If you bought one year ago you are currently up 1000%.

Again, my recommendation is not Ethereum but Bitcoin, I am confident it will see major gains before the end of this year, and I am extremely happy with its long-term performance so far, I have made tens of millions from it.

No one should invest money in anything if they can only afford to leave it in for two weeks. Is this an Australian thing?

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by donnacha

[LosLobo]

Mispost

Edited March 4, 2021 by LosLobo

[LosLobo]

2 hours ago, donnacha said:

My advice is to take only a small portion of your net worth, maybe 10%, and stick it into Bitcoin or, maybe, Ethereum.

 

18 minutes ago, donnacha said:

Again, my recommendation is not Ethereum but Bitcoin

 

My apologies I must have misread your post! ????

[scorecard]

7 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

My apologies, I must have misread your post ????

 On the other side of this subject, can any members suggest a reliable/credible organization in Thailand to get into Bitcoin, preferably with their literature etc., in English and Thai language?

 

(This would be all registered, transacted in my adult Thai son's name.)

Edited March 4, 2021 by scorecard

[Brickbat]

Ethereum is a Smart Contracts platform that many Alt Coins are based on, that have had massive gains recently.

It’s outperformed Bitcoin for the last 12 months, %age wise.

Again, as donnacha has so wisely put it, if your investment window is 2 weeks, then stay the hell out of any investment. 
 

Ethereum is waiting for Elon to tweet “ Ethereum is sweet” . Then watch it fly! 

[scorecard]

On the other side of this subject, can any members suggest a reliable/credible organization in Thailand to get into Bitcoin, preferably with their literature etc., in English and Thai language?

 

(This would be all registered, transacted in my adult Thai son's name.)

 

Thanks.

[Dazinoz]

18 hours ago, scorecard said:

 On the other side of this subject, can any members suggest a reliable/credible organization in Thailand to get into Bitcoin, preferably with their literature etc., in English and Thai language?

 

(This would be all registered, transacted in my adult Thai son's name.)

Firstly, in line with the OP, I am retired but not on pension yet and have not done a tax return for several years up until last year when I made some capital gains including crypto. This year I will need to do again as I have made around $50,000aud capital gains from BTC and silver sales.

 

In relation to your question I did a post last week to get opinions on coins.co.th. Most people who have used them are happy so I have signed up for an account. They have english and Thai. Most of my assets are in Oz including my crypto exchange. When (and if) BTC reaches a certain value I plan to sell some. I want to make around a 1 million baht purchase here in Thailand after that. My original plan was to trade the BTC on my Oz exchange then transfer cash back here. Then I thought I will transfer some to the coins.co.th exchange and cash out from there. This would save exchange rates and possibly tax in Australia but I don't know about that part.

 

As a side note I have done well with Cardano/ADA. I bought 100,000 at $0.15aud and earned another 2500 from staking. Down a bit now but last week hit $2aud.

 

[Natai Beach]

Gday mate. 
 

I thought we were Aussies, not Ozzies, which sounds like a name for an ostrich.

 

Anyway one of the advantages of not living In Australia is you can be some a “non resident for taxation purposes” 

 

You will need to go to the Thai Revenue Department and get a Thai tax file number from them. Takes about one hour.

 

The big advantage of this is as a non resident you pay zero capital gains tax in Australia on investments including shares and crypto. So every single dollar you make you keep in your pocket and don’t have to give a cent to the Happy Clapper to waste on marketing himself to win the next election and welfare leaners. 
Of course you should minimize your tax. And if anybody Australia doesn't minimise their tax, they want their heads read, because as a government, I can tell your they are not spending it that well that we should be donating extra.

 

As you are not required to pay it, you are not even required to report it on your Australian tax return which also saves accounting dramas. 
 

I believe @4MyEgo was planning to return to Australia to live until he realized this and is a fan of this system and may be able to add information.

[Dazinoz]

2 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

I thought we were Aussies, not Ozzies, which sounds like a name for an ostrich.

I didn't say we were Ozzies I said in Oz. Cant really say back in Aus.

 

3 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

Anyway one of the advantages of not living In Australia is you can be some a “non resident for taxation purposes” 

It appears I will need to return to Oztralia ???? to get pension later (unless BTC and Cardano really skyrocket this bull run) so I have kept all accounts in Australia, including ATO.

 

5 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

You will need to go to the Thai Revenue Department and get a Thai tax file number from them. Takes about one hour.

I think if I have to start stuffing around with the Thai tax office I will just stick with the ATO and pay the tax. Just tired dealing with Thai beaucracy.

[scorecard]

4 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

Gday mate. 
 

I thought we were Aussies, not Ozzies, which sounds like a name for an ostrich.

 

Anyway one of the advantages of not living In Australia is you can be some a “non resident for taxation purposes” 

 

You will need to go to the Thai Revenue Department and get a Thai tax file number from them. Takes about one hour.

 

The big advantage of this is as a non resident you pay zero capital gains tax in Australia on investments including shares and crypto. So every single dollar you make you keep in your pocket and don’t have to give a cent to the Happy Clapper to waste on marketing himself to win the next election and welfare leaners. 
Of course you should minimize your tax. And if anybody Australia doesn't minimise their tax, they want their heads read, because as a government, I can tell your they are not spending it that well that we should be donating extra.

 

As you are not required to pay it, you are not even required to report it on your Australian tax return which also saves accounting dramas. 
 

I believe @4MyEgo was planning to return to Australia to live until he realized this and is a fan of this system and may be able to add information.

 

Thanks for all of your valuable comments.

 

The reality is that any activity would be in my Thai adult son's name. He's obviously a Thai citizen, he's located in Thailand with his wife and kids and he has no status in Australia.

 

He's read a lot about bitcoin and is keen to try. His profession (well qualified) is not in finance, banking, investment etc., and he knows he needs to do a lot of learning how to invest in bitcoin and make some money.

 

He's also asking me to learn with him and to make decisions together. I'm willing. 

 

Therefore my post to ask if other members have any knowledge of operators located in Thailand. 

[Natai Beach]

1 minute ago, Dazinoz said:

I didn't say we were Ozzies I said in Oz. Cant really say back in Aus.

 

It appears I will need to return to Oztralia ???? to get pension later (unless BTC and Cardano really skyrocket this bull run) so I have kept all accounts in Australia, including ATO.

 

Getting on welfare is something that I would never consider. Not the way I was raised. 

 

 

1 minute ago, Dazinoz said:

 

I think if I have to start stuffing around with the Thai tax office I will just stick with the ATO and pay the tax. Just tired dealing with Thai beaucracy.

Yet another advantage of being a Thai resident for taxation purposes is that you are not required to pay tax on foreign earnings. 
So if you buy your crypto or shares in Australia you are legally not required to pay capital gains in Australia or ant tax on your “foreign (to Thailand)” earnings in Australia. 
 

As I said getting a thai tax number is as simple as filling in a form and sitting in a chair to wait for your number to be called out.

 

*as a non resident for taxation purposes” you still are required to submit yearly tax forms to the ATO. But are not required to even tell them of your shares/crypto capital gains.

[Dazinoz]

21 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

Getting on welfare is something that I would never consider. Not the way I was raised. 

The old age pension for Australians is not welfare, it is a retirement fund we workers paid for it all our working life. 

 

I never planned to get the OAP but coming to Thailand soon changed that for me. Praying for BTC and Cardano to the moon as they say.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Dazinoz

[murraynz]

36 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

The old age pension for Australians is not welfare, it is a retirement fund we workers paid for it all our working life. 

 

I never planned to get the OAP but coming to Thailand soon changed that for me. Praying for BTC and Cardano to the moon as they say.

 

Well said..i also got upset when i read somebody stating that a pension is welfare..its.not..

I lived in nz for 45 yrs between age 20 and 65 , before i was eligible to claim my full pension (nz super),overseas.ours isnt means tested,but i still pay taxes on my other nz income.

[4MyEgo]

55 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

*as a non resident for taxation purposes” you still are required to submit yearly tax forms to the ATO. But are not required to even tell them of your shares/crypto capital gains.

 

This is party correct information.

 

If you are a non-resident/foreign resident for tax purposes and have investments in Australia like shares in the ASX and the shares are fully franked i.e. tax has already been been taken out when your dividends are paid, then you don't have to submit a tax return. If you earn an income from within Australia like rent for example or wages outside of Australia you must lodge a tax return.

 

1 hour ago, Natai Beach said:

You will need to go to the Thai Revenue Department and get a Thai tax file number from them. Takes about one hour.

 

I have never heard of this, and would assume it is for anyone making an income in Thailand so that they can offset the tax paid here with Australia's worldwide tax laws, double treaty with Thailand and all.

 

1 hour ago, Natai Beach said:

The big advantage of this is as a non resident you pay zero capital gains tax in Australia on investments including shares and crypto. So every single dollar you make you keep in your pocket and don’t have to give a cent to the Happy Clapper to waste on marketing himself to win the next election and welfare leaners. 
Of course you should minimize your tax. And if anybody Australia doesn't minimise their tax, they want their heads read, because as a government, I can tell your they are not spending it that well that we should be donating extra.

 

Correct, no capital gains tax on shares, perhaps cryto, not a fan, so don't know about that, but when you say investments, you leave yourself wide open, because investments can also mean property, and I can tell you now, if you own property, YOU WILL PAY capital gains tax, all the way back to when you first purchased it, regardless if it was your principal place of residency, i.e. you purchased it, lived in it, then leased it and moved overseas.

 

1 hour ago, Natai Beach said:

I believe @4MyEgo was planning to return to Australia to live until he realized this and is a fan of this system and may be able to add information.

 

The reason I was planning to move back was when we were in lockdown last year with the pandemic, there were a lot of factors that were playing and building up over time, however I managed to have another hard look at it, including not paying tax here as a non-resident, suffice to say, it was a pretty break even situation, because when you have kids, the government provides you with family A-B payments which basically cover your rent in Oz, but returning would have been a mistake I believe as it would be premature to our long term plan, i.e. to move back when I am due to apply for the OAP, 7 years from now, kids would have finished school, property market would probably be ready to go up, not this current false "boom" as the media is pushing because of a housing shortage, but because the world economy will be just about recovering.

 

Once the two years is up and depending on what the kids are doing, University or work, then we can work out whether we, the wife and I will do 6 months in Oz and 6 months in Thailand or stay in Oz with holidays to Thailand with the kids/adults if they want to join us. 

 

I have never received welfare of any kind, but as I would qualify for the OAP and can have it made portable once I have lived in Australia for 2 years, why not I say, like you say, you have to be a mug to pay taxes, that said, I have paid enough taxes throughout my working years, not to mention how many times I paid capital gains tax from property sales over the years.

[4MyEgo]

19 minutes ago, murraynz said:

Well said..i also got upset when i read somebody stating that a pension is welfare..its.not..

I lived in nz for 45 yrs between age 20 and 65 , before i was eligible to claim my full pension (nz super),overseas.ours isnt means tested,but i still pay taxes on my other nz income.

Um, sorry to disappoint you guys, the wording was changed when it was they changed the department it was previously under, that said, it's only a word, i.e. welfare, and as long as we get it, who cares.

 

What are welfare payments in Australia?

At its broadest welfare can be used to refer to all of the programs and services that make up the welfare state. This can include health and education, as well as income support payments such as the Age Pension, Carer Payment, Disability Support Pension and Newstart Allowance.

[Dazinoz]

4 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Um, sorry to disappoint you guys, the wording was changed when it was they changed the department it was previously under, that said, it's only a word, i.e. welfare, and as long as we get it, who cares.

 

What are welfare payments in Australia?

At its broadest welfare can be used to refer to all of the programs and services that make up the welfare state. This can include health and education, as well as income support payments such as the Age Pension, Carer Payment, Disability Support Pension and Newstart Allowance.

The wording may have changed to welfare but it doesn't changed the fact that Australian workers paid into the OAP retirement fund many years. I have an idea why the name was changed but I won't get into government BS here.

 

My wife in Australia is getting a Carers Payment and that is welfare even though technically all welfare payments from the government paid by Australian tax payers.

[Natai Beach]

38 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

If you are a non-resident/foreign resident for tax purposes and have investments in Australia like shares in the ASX and the shares are fully franked i.e. tax has already been been taken out when your dividends are paid, then you don't have to submit a tax return. If you earn an income from within Australia like rent for example or wages outside of Australia you must lodge a tax return.

I was talking capital gains as stated. There is no income from crypto, it is only capital gains.

[Natai Beach]

39 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I have never heard of this, and would assume it is for anyone making an income in Thailand so that they can offset the tax paid here with Australia's worldwide tax laws, double treaty with Thailand and all.

Don’t assume. To open a new brokerage account in Australia as a non resident for taxation purposes it is now a requirement.

[Natai Beach]

41 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

long term plan, i.e. to move back when I am due to apply for the OAP

I wouldn’t expect anything else from an Aussie with Greek heritage. 
The rules were tightened up because of Italians and Greeks “qualifying” and then living in Greece and Italy off the Australian taxpayer.

[scorecard]

To all, thanks for all of your valuable comments.

 

The reality is that for me any activity would be in my Thai adult son's name. He's obviously a Thai citizen, he's located in Thailand with his wife and kids and he has no status in Australia.

 

He's read a lot about bitcoin and is keen to try. His profession (well qualified) is not in finance, banking, investment etc., and he knows he needs to do a lot of learning how to invest in bitcoin and make some money.

 

He's also asking me to learn with him and to make decisions together. I'm willing. 

 

Therefore my post to ask if other members have any knowledge of stable, honest, professional Bitcoin operators located in Thailand. 

 

And advice/information on my question just above much appreciated, thanks.

[4MyEgo]

22 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

I wouldn’t expect anything else from an Aussie with Greek heritage. 
The rules were tightened up because of Italians and Greeks “qualifying” and then living in Greece and Italy off the Australian taxpayer.

 

You forget to mention one thing, the Italians and the Greeks paid their taxes and contributed to building a better Australia.

 

Your statement of them living off of the Australian tax payer is WRONG !

 

Every person who has lived in Australia for 35 years, the key word is "lived" the 2nd key word is "35" years is entitled to the OAP, so don't try and paint a bad picture on the Greeks and Italians who are hard workers, law abiding citizens and assimilated into Australia with ease and are still respected by the Ozzies, even though they did give them a hard time when they arrived. 

[4MyEgo]

31 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

Don’t assume. To open a new brokerage account in Australia as a non resident for taxation purposes it is now a requirement.

 

That may now be the case, but always good to know for others with a link for them to see.

[4MyEgo]

35 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

I was talking capital gains as stated. There is no income from crypto, it is only capital gains.

Noted.

[Natai Beach]

1 hour ago, murraynz said:

Well said..i also got upset when i read somebody stating that a pension is welfare..its.not..

 

 Of course it is welfare, it is being paid by the taxpayers. 
It is very different to a self funded retiree who isn’t bludging off the taxpayer and who still pay tax.
 

 

[Dazinoz]

5 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

 Of course it is welfare, it is being paid by the taxpayers. 
It is very different to a self funded retiree who isn’t bludging off the taxpayer and who still pay tax.
 

 

If that what you truly believe I am happy to go back and bludge off the money I paid as a taxpayer.

 

As they say here "up to you" what you believe.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Dazinoz

[Natai Beach]

47 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

You forget to mention one thing, the Italians and the Greeks paid their taxes and contributed to building a better Australia.

 

 

Come on mate, they didn’t do it to help Australia, they did it to improve their own lives, not because of any special love for Australia.

 

 

47 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Your statement of them living off of the Australian tax payer is WRONG !
 

 

A higher proportion of them were on welfare AND working for cash on the side. 

 

47 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Every person who has lived in Australia for 35 years, the key word is "lived" the 2nd key word is "35" years is entitled to the OAP.

One of my best mates is Greek, been on the dole for years, works for cash on the side, grows marijuana. Funny bloke.
 

Hardly hardworking, law abiding or a taxpayer.

But he will qualify for the OAP.

[Dazinoz]

8 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

Hardly hardworking, law abiding or a taxpayer.

But he will qualify for the OAP.

And I paid high taxes many years in Australia and may have a battle to get OAP because I came to Thailand for an extended holiday.