Popular Post 7by7 Posted March 31, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2021 21 hours ago, youreavinalaff said: Correct. But, Scottish MPs can also vote on issues involving only England. Is that fair? Ah, the West Lothian question. No; it is not fair that not only Scottish but also Northern Irish and Welsh MPs can vote on purely English matters. Hence the English votes for English laws. Introduced in 2015, but temporarily suspended in April 2020. 21 hours ago, youreavinalaff said: In answer to your question, Scotland are looking to break up the Union. Therefore I believe that everyone within that union should have a say. The UK and Scotland are connected in so many ways, not just with finance. Scottish nationalists are not looking to break up the union; but they are looking to leave it. Did the UK break up when what is now the RoI left in 1922? No. Yes, the UK and Scotland are connected in many ways; not just as a political union. But if another referendum is in favour of independence, how can you claim holding Scotland in the union against the expressed wishes of the majority of Scots is democratic? You asked is it fair that Scottish MPs can vote on English only matters. How can it be fair, let alone democratic, if the wishes of the English, Welsh and Northern Irish force Scotland to remain in the union against the will of the majority of Scots? In fact, you seem to be contradicting yourself 23 hours ago, youreavinalaff said: Like I have said numerous times before, I have nothing against Scottish independence. In fact, I wish they would get on with it. You want them to get on with it; but only if we give them permission? 21 hours ago, youreavinalaff said: The UK voted to leave the EU, not to break it up. UK and EU were not connected in as many ways. None other than financially, trade, etc. Look up the meaning of 'simile.' I repeat; Scottish nationalists want to leave the UK, not break it up. The UK will still exist after Scotland has left. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post 7by7 Posted March 31, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2021 14 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said: Well didn't the "once in a generation" vote count. Don't tell me the EU vote makes a difference, more people voted to Leave in Scotland than voted for the SNP. In the 2016 referendum, 38% of voters in Scotland voted 'Leave.' (Source) In the 2019 general election, 45% of voters in Scotland voted for the SNP. (Source) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, 7by7 said: Ah, the West Lothian question. No; it is not fair that not only Scottish but also Northern Irish and Welsh MPs can vote on purely English matters. Hence the English votes for English laws. Introduced in 2015, but temporarily suspended in April 2020. Scottish nationalists are not looking to break up the union; but they are looking to leave it. Did the UK break up when what is now the RoI left in 1922? No. Yes, the UK and Scotland are connected in many ways; not just as a political union. But if another referendum is in favour of independence, how can you claim holding Scotland in the union against the expressed wishes of the majority of Scots is democratic? You asked is it fair that Scottish MPs can vote on English only matters. How can it be fair, let alone democratic, if the wishes of the English, Welsh and Northern Irish force Scotland to remain in the union against the will of the majority of Scots? In fact, you seem to be contradicting yourself You want them to get on with it; but only if we give them permission? Look up the meaning of 'simile.' I repeat; Scottish nationalists want to leave the UK, not break it up. The UK will still exist after Scotland has left. I have never said Scotland should not vote. I also never said that Scotland should remain in UK if the referendum was LEAVE. You are putting words in my mouth. I believe it would be in the best interests of parliament if a date were to be arranged with all parties involved. There is more to life in the UK than Scottish independence. With Brexit, Covid19 and the problems this has cause with the economy, possibilities of new waves of the virus, more restrictions and partial lockdowns. It would be prudent and polite of the Scottish people to consider all of these matters and agree a good time to take the vote. The reason I used the term " undemocratic" is because it is a referendum that involves the UK, not just Scotland. Therefore the democracy of UK should be respected. Nicola Sturgeon has already suggested that Indyref2 should take place in the first half of the next term. That means within the next 2.5 years. All seems perfectly reasonable but should be agreed by ALL MPs in Westminster. Note there that I said ALL. Not just English. I am including the Welsh, N.Irish and Scottish( even the unionists) in that ALL. I have not contradicted myself. When I say "get on with it" I mean exactly that. Start throwing some dates into the ring. Start deciding exactly what it is they want to take and leave. I would imagine that technically speaking the Union will break up. Many parts will need to be broken and then reformed without Scotland. Edited March 31, 2021 by youreavinalaff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rookiescot Posted March 31, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2021 34 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said: I have never said Scotland should not vote. I also never said that Scotland should remain in UK if the referendum was LEAVE. You are putting words in my mouth. I believe it would be in the best interests of parliament if a date were to be arranged with all parties involved. There is more to life in the UK than Scottish independence. With Brexit, Covid19 and the problems this has cause with the economy, possibilities of new waves of the virus, more restrictions and partial lockdowns. It would be prudent and polite of the Scottish people to consider all of these matters and agree a good time to take the vote. The reason I used the term " undemocratic" is because it is a referendum that involves the UK, not just Scotland. Therefore the democracy of UK should be respected. Nicola Sturgeon has already suggested that Indyref2 should take place in the first half of the next term. That means within the next 2.5 years. All seems perfectly reasonable but should be agreed by ALL MPs in Westminster. Note there that I said ALL. Not just English. I am including the Welsh, N.Irish and Scottish( even the unionists) in that ALL. I have not contradicted myself. When I say "get on with it" I mean exactly that. Start throwing some dates into the ring. Start deciding exactly what it is they want to take and leave. I would imagine that technically speaking the Union will break up. Many parts will need to be broken and then reformed without Scotland. Did all the MEP's get a vote and say on when a Brexit referendum could take place? No? OK then the same rules apply. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Rookiescot said: Did all the MEP's get a vote and say on when a Brexit referendum could take place? No? OK then the same rules apply. Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I said nothing about a vote. I said an agreement. The UK had agreements with the EU. OK then same rules apply. Edited March 31, 2021 by youreavinalaff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rookiescot Posted March 31, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2021 1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said: Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I said nothing about a vote. I said an agreement. The UK had agreements with the EU. OK then same rules apply. 1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said: The reason I used the term " undemocratic" is because it is a referendum that involves the UK, not just Scotland. Therefore the democracy of UK should be respected. Nicola Sturgeon has already suggested that Indyref2 should take place in the first half of the next term. That means within the next 2.5 years. All seems perfectly reasonable but should be agreed by ALL MPs in Westminster. Note there that I said ALL. Not just English. I am including the Welsh, N.Irish and Scottish( even the unionists) in that ALL. So how would such agreement be measured? Oh yeah. They would have a vote. Odd that you so value Westminsters agreement given the massive numerical disparity between English, Scottish, Welsh and NI MP,s. Still trying to Lord it over the colonies eh? Heres a clue. Its the business of the people of Scotland as to when they have another referendum. Brexitland will be introduced to the negotiations after the result is known. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said: So how would such agreement be measured? Oh yeah. They would have a vote. Odd that you so value Westminsters agreement given the massive numerical disparity between English, Scottish, Welsh and NI MP,s. Still trying to Lord it over the colonies eh? Heres a clue. Its the business of the people of Scotland as to when they have another referendum. Brexitland will be introduced to the negotiations after the result is known. The people of Scotland had a referendum. The UK had a referendum. The result of the UK referendum was adhered to. No further referendum took place. Ok. Same rules apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rookiescot Posted March 31, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2021 7 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said: The people of Scotland had a referendum. The UK had a referendum. The result of the UK referendum was adhered to. No further referendum took place. Ok. Same rules apply. You need to get used to the idea that the conversation in Scotland has moved on. The opinions of Brexiteers/English nationalists, while interesting, no longer influences it. You get what you vote for. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said: You need to get used to the idea that the conversation in Scotland has moved on. The opinions of Brexiteers/English nationalists, while interesting, no longer influences it. You get what you vote for. Oh dear. Here we go again. I have explained my stance so many times. Interesting though that uou feel the same rules should be applied when you agree with them but not when you don't. Edited March 31, 2021 by youreavinalaff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookiescot Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 1 minute ago, youreavinalaff said: Oh dear. Here we go again. I have explained my stance so many times. Interesting though that you want the same rules when you agree with them but not when you don't. Which rule? The one where it was up to the UK whether it left or not. Or the one where its up to Scotland whether it leaves or not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 2 hours ago, Rookiescot said: Did all the MEP's get a vote and say on when a Brexit referendum could take place? No? OK then the same rules apply. 1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said: The people of Scotland had a referendum. The UK had a referendum. The result of the UK referendum was adhered to. No further referendum took place. Ok. Same rules apply. Here. Hopefully you can resolve your issues with selective reading and memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookiescot Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 21 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said: Here. Hopefully you can resolve your issues with selective reading and memory. You make no sense. Are you saying Westminster should have a say on the timing of any future referendum while the EU Parliament had no say on Brexit? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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