EU blames AstraZeneca as vaccine battle with UK deepens

[cocoonclub]

16 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Your entire post is full of inaccuracies - maybe you haven't been watching the news reports etc. over the last few weeks? I don't intend answering all your comments - I've followed this story very closely and I'm confident that everything in my previous post is accurate.

 

However, by way of illustration to one point you make - at the time that Germany halted use of the AZ vaccine over the blood clot issue, they admitted that they had only used 10% of their stock yet they were joining in the complaints about lack of supply.  News reports yesterday showed empty vaccine centres as people stayed away, fearful of the AZ vaccine.

What “inaccuracies” is my post full of? You say you are referring to “one point” I made, but then you write about Germany’s use of the vaccine which I never commented on. 

[KhaoYai]

8 hours ago, cocoonclub said:

It’s completely irrelevant whether and how the EU uses the supply it contractually is entitled to. Not to mention that it has been using it completely; it has all been delivered to the customers of the joint procurement program such as Germany, France, etc. 

You didn't make that comment then? Has someone hacked your account?

Edited March 23, 2021 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

8 hours ago, cocoonclub said:

No actions over the last 2 months that caused anything.

On that one in particular............ have you been living in a cave?  Have you not seen the EU citizens openly stating on TV that they won't have the AZ vaccine? What do you think caused that hesitancy?

[cocoonclub]

6 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

You didn't make that comment then? Has someone hacked your account?

This comment I made. Not the one you claimed I made. 

[cocoonclub]

2 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

On that one in particular............ have you been living in a cave?  Have you not seen the EU citizens openly stating on TV that they won't have the AZ vaccine? What do you think caused that hesitancy?

Tell me. I’m sure you have a conspiracy theory for it. 
 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by cocoonclub

[7by7]

1 minute ago, KhaoYai said:

I disagree - I don't see much evidence of a lockdown this time. Maybe non essential retail is closed but people still mix in other stores with little evidence of social distancing

Really?

 

Where I live, all the major supermarkets have people on the door preventing groups of two or more from entering, unless a parent and child or someone accompanied by their carer.

 

Other, smaller shops have limits on the number of customers allowed in at any one time.

 

All have marks on the floor, especially at tills, indicating the minimum social distancing.

 

7 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I live in a tourist area and we have groups of walkers and cyclists passing every weekend.  A couple of weeks ago I was on the M62 and it was rammed full of traffic,

Yes, people are breaking the rules by travelling to tourist areas.

 

8 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

most people I know are going to work

Depends what their occupation is; key workers or not. I'm a key worker and have a letter from my employer to show the police if necessary explaining why I am travelling during lockdown. I'm off sick at present, but when working was never asked to show it, but some of my colleagues have been.

 

My home overlooks a major commuter rail station into London. In normal times the platforms in the mornings are packed solid and when a train arrives it's standing room only. In the evenings when a train arrives it's full and as people disembark the platform fills up, too. At the moment, mornings and evenings, trains and station are virtually empty and have been since last March.

 

16 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

compared to March 2020 it seems pretty normal outside.

Not here. People taking exercise in the park or on local common; yes. But the town centre is empty most days.

 

17 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

When the kids went back to school last September, new infections rose immediately. This time they went back to school 2 weeks ago and infections continue to fall.

 

As no one under the age of 50, unless they are in a high risk group, has been vaccinated, how is that relevant to the issue?

 

24 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I'm convinced that the falling numbers of cases, hospitalisations and deaths in the UK is due to vaccination.

The evidence is not yet clear enough to make such a definite statement. Which is why I said 'probably.'

[7by7]

8 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

On that one in particular............ have you been living in a cave?  Have you not seen the EU citizens openly stating on TV that they won't have the AZ vaccine? What do you think caused that hesitancy?

 Nothing that the EU and it's agency the EMA said or did as both consistently said that the AstraZeneca vaccine is safe!

 

If you want to blame somebody for the suspension by the governments of some, not all, EU member states and those of other states worldwide, including Thailand, and the hesitancy shown by some over receiving the AstraZeneca vaccine; blame the Norwegian Medicines Agency as it was they who first raised concerns over it's use. 

 

Norway is not a member of the EU.

[KhaoYai]

12 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Nothing that the EU and it's agency the EMA said or did as both consistently said that the AstraZeneca vaccine is safe!

We've had this argument on another thread. Your views are your own but they are completely out of sync with every news report I've seen.

[adammike]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 Nothing that the EU and it's agency the EMA said or did as both consistently said that the AstraZeneca vaccine is safe!

 

If you want to blame somebody for the suspension by the governments of some, not all, EU member states and those of other states worldwide, including Thailand, and the hesitancy shown by some over receiving the AstraZeneca vaccine; blame the Norwegian Medicines Agency as it was they who first raised concerns over it's use. 

 

Norway is not a member of the EU.

The major problem we in the EU have is that 60% of the promised vaccines have not been delivered.They won't be delivered until June/July.Throw in the nearly two weeks hiatus in using the AZ vaccine it's a cluster.The UK have ordered more than they need,that's why the EU want a fair distribution of the vaccines.Its the same when Italy stopped the export to Australia,Oz already have more than they need.My guess it's so Boris can be seen as the magnanimous saviour of Europe by distributing the UK's excess,a bit like the eastern European's loved Maggie Thatcher they saw her as saving them from the Soviets.Guess it will be 2023 before I can get to Thailand.

[KhaoYai]

36 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Really?

Absolutely. I've had legitimate reasons to travel to Harrogate, Leeds, Manchester and York. Motorways busy, lots of people out etc. etc. It would be interesting to hear from other members who live in the UK - here, this 'lockdown' doesn't ever resemble the first.

 

Yes there are marks on the floor in supermarkets etc. - marks that people ignore and walk wherever they want.  B&Q are open for example, as are many stores that were closed in the first lockdown.

 

In the first lockdown I struggled to find anywhere open to buy things for essential property repairs - now I have no problems. Plumbing, electrical and car parts shops are open.  The house next door but one to me is undergoing major renovation by a group of tradesmen. The local quarry where roadstone is mined is fully operational. Really, I don't see much difference to normal. The exception being in the evening, then everywhere is dead.

36 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

As no one under the age of 50, unless they are in a high risk group, has been vaccinated, how is that relevant to the issue?

The figures make it relevant. As I said, when UK kids went back to school last September, cases rose immediately (look at the graphs on gov.uk). This time they've been back for 2 weeks and cases are still falling. What other explanation is there?

 

In general, yes some places are dead but they have been replaced by other places being busier than normal.  For example, when I was on the M62 and it was packed, where were all those people going if they weren't visiting friends, family or doing non essential shopping? 

Edited March 23, 2021 by KhaoYai

[cocoonclub]

18 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

We've had this argument on another thread. Your views are your own but they are completely out of sync with every news report I've seen.

According to what “news report” you’ve seen did the EU say the vaccine is not safe? All news reports I’ve seen state the opposite. 

[polpott]

5 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Absolutely. I've had legitimate reasons to travel to Harrogate, Leeds, Manchester and York. Motorways busy, lots of people out etc. etc. It would be interesting to hear from other members who live in the UK - here, this 'lockdown' doesn't ever resemble the first.

 

Yes there are marks on the floor in supermarkets etc. - marks that people ignore and walk wherever they want.  B&Q are open for example, as are many stores that were closed in the first lockdown.

 

In the first lockdown I struggled to find anywhere open to buy things for essential property repairs - now I have no problems. Plumbing, electrical and car parts shops are open.  The house next door but one to me is undergoing major renovation by a group of tradesmen. The local quarry where roadstone is mined is fully operational. Really, I don't see much difference to normal. The exception being in the evening, then everywhere is dead.

The figures make it relevant. As I said, when UK kids went back to school last September, cases rose immediately (look at the graphs on gov.uk). This time they've been back for 2 weeks and cases are still falling. What other explanation is there?

 

In general, yes some places are dead but they have been replaced by other places being busier than normal.  For example, when I was on the M62 and it was packed, where were all those people going if they weren't visiting friends, family or doing non essential shopping? 

A friend of mine lives in Morecambe, Lancashire. Noted to me that a large group of Asian muslims were seen strolling down the promenade on Sunday, clearly not locals, just there for a day out. probably no coincidence that Blackburn and Darwen, which has a large muslim community, is a hotspot for Covid in Lancashire.

[KhaoYai]

2 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

According to what “news report” you’ve seen did the EU say the vaccine is not safe? All news reports I’ve seen state the opposite. 

Norway then EU member states halted the vaccinations. Prior to that some members caused hesitancy by claiming that there was no evidence that the vaccine was either safe or effective for use in over 65's - they halted its use. Then when a report came out of the UK showing it was safe and effective for over 65's, they re-started the programme for that group.  Too late, damage done.

 

I am fully aware that the EMA for example, stated the AZ vaccine was safe - that didn't stop some members going against that advice.

 

If you think the EU's actions have not caused any suspicion or hesitancy towards the AZ vaccine, you need to get with the programme - that's the opposite of almost every report I've seen, even from Politico.

[adammike]

1 minute ago, polpott said:

A friend of mine lives in Morecambe, Lancashire. Noted to me that a large group of Asian muslims were seen strolling down the promenade on Sunday, clearly not locals, just there for a day out. probably no coincidence that Blackburn and Darwen, which has a large muslim community, is a hotspot for Covid in Lancashire.

My two white Christian brothers travelled down to North Wales to seem my 97yo mum last weekend,she seems to be fading away.One from the Medway area one from Norwich,both on the orange list.

[cocoonclub]

4 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Norway then EU member states halted the vaccinations. Prior to that some members caused hesitancy by claiming that there was no evidence that the vaccine was either safe or effective for use in over 65's - they halted its use. Then when a report came out of the UK showing it was safe and effective for over 65's, they re-started the programme for that group.  Too late, damage done.

 

I am fully aware that the EMA for example, stated the AZ vaccine was safe - that didn't stop some members going against that advice.

 

If you think the EU's actions have not caused any suspicion or hesitancy towards the AZ vaccine, you need to get with the programme - that's the opposite of almost every report I've seen, even from Politico.

Your claim was about the EU, not about Norway or other countries. That claim is evidently wrong, yet you keep touting it. 
 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by cocoonclub

[polpott]

Just now, adammike said:

My two white Christian brothers travelled down to North Wales to seem my 97yo mum last weekend,she seems to be fading away.One from the Medway area one from Norwich,both on the orange list.

They had far more justification to travel than a couple of large families travelling from a Covid hotspot to enjoy an ice cream on the promenade, wouldn't you say?

[KhaoYai]

2 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

Your claim was about the EU, not about Norway or other countries. 

Yes, Norway then EU member states. I was merely adding chronology by mentioning Norway.

Edited March 23, 2021 by KhaoYai

[cocoonclub]

3 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Yes, Norway then EU member states

Like I said already, your claim wasn’t about certain countries such as Norway or EU member states. You made a claim about the EU, which is evidently wrong, yet you keep touting it. Unless you think it’s ok if I accuse you of something that your old uncle Gary did. 
 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by cocoonclub

[KhaoYai]

2 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

Like I said already, your claim wasn’t about certain countries such as Norway or EU member states. You made a claim about the EU, which is evidently wrong, yet you keep touting it. Unless you think it’s ok if I accuse you of something that your old uncle Gary did. 
 

 

 

I have no idea what you are talking about to be honest.

 

Let me make it clear:

 

I believe that some EU member states have caused vaccine hesitancy and refusal because of their actions over the last 2 months or so.  Some members halted vaccine for over 65's then restarted it. Then some members halted administration of the AZ vaccine because of reports coming from Norway, Germany and others regarding blood clots. Even though at that time the EU's regulator repeatedly said there was no evidence linking the vaccine to blood clots.  Thos are all facts - you can check that if you like but if you insist, I will provide you with links.

 

Following those actions there have been various news reports from both outside and inside the EU showing that vaccine hesitancy was growing towards the AZ vaccine. Some reports showed empty vaccine centres.

 

For god's sake man, where have you been?  These reports were almost hourly a week ago.  This is not just my view, its common knowledge.

[John Drake]

AZ is totally inept. Who would trust taking a vaccine from these idiots who keep screwing up their trial data. They deceived the US government about their trial data yesterday. Can't see why anyone would take this stuff. 

Quote

Results from a U.S. trial of AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine may have included “outdated information” and that could mean the company provided an incomplete view of efficacy data, American federal health officials said early Tuesday.    https://apnews.com/article/us-news-coronavirus-pandemic-a98ef616f4e861a4b7568891d06b7da8

 

[sotonowl]

10 hours ago, cocoonclub said:

The EU has customers it needs to supply. It has its own contractual obligation to supply countries like Germany, France etc.

Are they the countries who have poisoned their own peoples thinking around the vaccine. The countries who are saying that the AZ vaccine is next to useless but complain they aren't getting their fair share of it. Can't you see or understand how stupid that sounds. Now put your idiotic thoughts of what is and isn't legal to one side and concentrate (if you can) on thinking what is the best way, morally, of getting an effective vaccine into the people who need it.

They've made a political football out of this, they're fools, as are anyone else who'll side with them.

[cocoonclub]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

I have no idea what you are talking about to be honest.

 

Let me make it clear:

 

I believe that some EU member states have caused vaccine hesitancy and refusal because of their actions over the last 2 months or so.  Some members halted vaccine for over 65's then restarted it. Then some members halted administration of the AZ vaccine because of reports coming from Norway, Germany and others regarding blood clots. Even though at that time the EU's regulator repeatedly said there was no evidence linking the vaccine to blood clots.  Thos are all facts - you can check that if you like but if you insist, I will provide you with links.

 

Following those actions there have been various news reports from both outside and inside the EU showing that vaccine hesitancy was growing towards the AZ vaccine. Some reports showed empty vaccine centres.

 

For god's sake man, where have you been?  These reports were almost hourly a week ago.  This is not just my view, its common knowledge.

Maybe you should have written that in the first place then instead of making claims about the EU that you then later have to retract when people debunk them. 

[sotonowl]

10 hours ago, cocoonclub said:

Of course you are entitled to that opinion but it’s legally irrelevant.
 

The EU has customers it needs to supply. It has its own contractual obligation to supply countries like Germany, France etc. So it is absolutely right to pass that onto its own supplier when such supplier is fulfilling his contract. 

Here, have a read of that and get back in your box, and don't forget to put the lid back on.

https://www.bbc.com/news/56483766

[cocoonclub]

4 minutes ago, sotonowl said:

Are they the countries who have poisoned their own peoples thinking around the vaccine. The countries who are saying that the AZ vaccine is next to useless but complain they aren't getting their fair share of it. Can't you see or understand how stupid that sounds. Now put your idiotic thoughts of what is and isn't legal to one side and concentrate (if you can) on thinking what is the best way, morally, of getting an effective vaccine into the people who need it.

They've made a political football out of this, they're fools, as are anyone else who'll side with them.

It doesn’t matter what you or I think is morally right. Good luck convincing someone to break their obligations because of your morals. Can't you see or understand how stupid that sounds.

[cocoonclub]

6 minutes ago, sotonowl said:

Here, have a read of that and get back in your box, and don't forget to put the lid back on.

https://www.bbc.com/news/56483766

What does that have to do with my reply? 

[sotonowl]

2 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

It doesn’t matter what you or I think is morally right. Good luck convincing someone to break their obligations because of your morals. Can't you see or understand how stupid that sounds.

 

 

2 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

What does that have to do with my reply? 

You haven't read the link I sent you properly have you. Take the time, you might actually read somewhere in there that the EU waived their legal rights at enforcing penalties.

 

Try and put your hatred to one side for a minute and educate yourself with facts instead of bile. No need to thank me.????????????

[KhaoYai]

30 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

Maybe you should have written that in the first place then instead of making claims about the EU that you then later have to retract when people debunk them. 

Exactly what have I claimed that has been debunked?  There is no difference between the original post that you commented on and I don't see a single thing that's been 'debunked'.

 

I have retracted absolutely nothing. You're talking rubbish again.

Edited March 23, 2021 by KhaoYai

[cocoonclub]

23 minutes ago, sotonowl said:

 

 

You haven't read the link I sent you properly have you. Take the time, you might actually read somewhere in there that the EU waived their legal rights at enforcing penalties.

 

Try and put your hatred to one side for a minute and educate yourself with facts instead of bile. No need to thank me.????????????

Again, what does it have to do with what I wrote? The only one full of “hatred” and “bile” seems to be you given how you’re mixing up things that I never even mentioned and not even remotely care about. 

[KhaoYai]

58 minutes ago, John Drake said:

AZ is totally inept. Who would trust taking a vaccine from these idiots who keep screwing up their trial data. They deceived the US government about their trial data yesterday. Can't see why anyone would take this stuff. 

 

I think you might be better waiting for further reports and explanations from official sources. I wouldn't take one report as gospel - either way.

 

At the moment I look at the actual figures from the UK which I believe has administered the largest amount of the AZ vaccine.

 

Back in January we were seeing figures as high as over 60,000 new infections per day and deaths around 2000.  Over the last 7 days the average amount of new infections is 5485 and 84 deaths.  I don't have the figures but the UK has been using Pfizer and AZ vaccines - it would be a fair guess that the split is around 50/50.  The more vaccines we administer, the more the figures come down.

 

There may be some upturn in new infections in the coming weeks as the virus sweeps through Europoe on its third wave but I think the vaccine will counteract that.

 

Of course the UK went into lockdown again in January but personally, I don't see much difference between normal life and the lockdown - especially compared to the first lockdown last year.

[cocoonclub]

21 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Exactly what have I claimed that has been debunked? 

That whatever EU’s “actions” caused “mistrust and hesitancy towards the AZ vaccine”. When pressed for evidence, you then quickly retracted and...

 

Quote

I don't see a single thing that's been 'debunked'.

 

I have retracted absolutely nothing. You're talking rubbish again.

...had to admit it wasn’t the EU but Norway and other countries, and that the EU in fact supported the vaccine. 
 

So the only one talking rubbish seems to be you (again).

 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by cocoonclub