7 hours ago, cocoonclub said:

Maybe that’s difficult to grasp for you Brits as you are more obsessed with the EU than the average person on the mainland ever will be. 

A figment of your imagination I'm afraid - even as a remainer, I accepted that we have left the EU.  I for one am not at all obsessed with the EU.  It is impossible to group us all together as 'you Brits' when you are clearly referring to the aftermath of the Brexit debate. I would remind you that the vote was 48% - 52% - that clearly establishes that the UK as a whole is fairly evenly split on matters EU.

 

I agree with my country when I consider they are correct but I'm not afraid to criticise my country or its government when they are wrong. My loyalty is with what's right and at the moment the EU is not taking the right approach in trying to obtain more vaccines for its citizens.

 

The EU have openly taken a more cautious route when approving all vaccines to date, they have also gone against their own regulator's advice with some countries halting use of the AZ vaccine temporarily.  Prior to that Germany for example, raised questions over the use of the AZ vaccine for over 65's and stopped using it until they saw a report giving it the all clear. Macron is on record as stating the AZ vaccine is 'Quasi Ineffective and other leaders have made comments against the AZ product. All those things have created suspicion, hestitancy and in some cases, refusal of the AZ vaccine (I'm not going to argue that point with you again - its well documented).

 

The caution over and suspension of the AZ vaccine is of course, the EU's prerogative but to then complain they are not getting their fair share is completely ridiculous.

 

Thankfully, there was some news today that hesitancy towards the AZ vaccine is diminishing in some EU countries.

11 hours ago, sotonowl said:

Fact is the UK has out  manoeuvred the EU and people like you can't handle it for some reason.

If the UK was that clever it would have ensured that all production was based in the UK. Brexit was all about cake and eating it.

Any country can initiate export control if said export would be detrimental the functioning of the country concerned. As far as the vaccine is concerned the UK is a victim of it's own success, nobody in their right mind can argue that the UK needs the vaccine more urgently than the EU.

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

UK is a victim of it's own success, nobody in their right mind can argue that the UK needs the vaccine more urgently than the EU.

I would argue that strongly. Why prioritise a community whos vaccination program is a shambles? Why prioritise a community that doesn't fully utilise the vaccine it possesses? Why prioritise a community that consistently shown a lack of faith in that vaccine? Far better to prioritise a nation that has full faith in the vaccine (96% of the UK nation are happy to be vaccinated). Far better to prioritise a nation who are making full use of that vaccine, over 50% of the UK adult population have now had at least one dose of the vaccine. Far better to prioritise a nation who are getting tangiable benefits from the vaccine, UK Covid deaths yesterday down to 17 from a high of over 1200 at the beginning of February.

 

Churchill said, "Give us the tools and we'll do the job". The EU says "Give us the tools and we'll spit on them and throw them in the trash". The UK is far more deserving of the vaccine.

9 minutes ago, polpott said:

I would argue that strongly. Why prioritise a community whos vaccination program is a shambles? Why prioritise a community that doesn't fully utilise the vaccine it possesses? Why prioritise a community that consistently shown a lack of faith in that vaccine? Far better to prioritise a nation that has full faith in the vaccine (96% of the UK nation are happy to be vaccinated). Far better to prioritise a nation who are making full use of that vaccine, over 50% of the UK adult population have now had at least one dose of the vaccine. Far better to prioritise a nation who are getting tangiable benefits from the vaccine, UK Covid deaths yesterday down to 17 from a high of over 1200 at the beginning of February.

 

Churchill said, "Give us the tools and we'll do the job". The EU says "Give us the tools and we'll spit on them and throw them in the trash". The UK is far more deserving of the vaccine.

An irrelevant argument and a bit arrogant to claim who is more deserving.

You seem to be overlooking the old adage "possession is 9/10 of the law."

I never said I agreed with the EU breaking agreement, but then I don't agree with Bojo breaking the agreements on NI and foreign aid.

There is another old adage about goose and gander.

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

An irrelevant argument and a bit arrogant to claim who is more deserving.

You seem to be overlooking the old adage "possession is 9/10 of the law."

I never said I agreed with the EU breaking agreement, but then I don't agree with Bojo breaking the agreements on NI and foreign aid.

There is another old adage about goose and gander.

If that were to be taken literally then the EU demanding that AZ supply its shortfall of vaccines from the UK plants is invalid.

6 minutes ago, sandyf said:

An irrelevant argument and a bit arrogant to claim who is more deserving.

Not arrogant, I just stated facts. My post was totally relevant, your reply was totally irrelevant as it provided no argument against any of the facts I stated.

 

As an ardent ex remainer need I remind you that Brexit is over, we're out of the EU. Time for all Brits, ex remainers or ex brexiteers to get behind the UK as it now is.

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

If that were to be taken literally then the EU demanding that AZ supply its shortfall of vaccines from the UK plants is invalid.

And manufactured by a UK company and developed and patented by a UK university.

4 minutes ago, polpott said:

Not arrogant, I just stated facts. My post was totally relevant, your reply was totally irrelevant as it provided no argument against any of the facts I stated.

 

As an ardent ex remainer need I remind you that Brexit is over, we're out of the EU. Time for all Brits, ex remainers or ex brexiteers to get behind the UK as it now is.

When did this statement of yours become a fact " The UK is far more deserving of the vaccine." 

It may come as a surprise but opinions are not facts, and your are quite entitled to hold the opinion that brexit is over despite the unresolved issues.

8 minutes ago, sandyf said:

When did this statement of yours become a fact " The UK is far more deserving of the vaccine." 

It may come as a surprise but opinions are not facts, and your are quite entitled to hold the opinion that brexit is over despite the unresolved issues.

I backed that statement up with facts. facts that you seem unable to challenge.

 

As I said, I was and ardent remainer and voted as such. However I accept the fact that we are no longer in the EU and that isn't going to change. Time to get behind your country.

On 3/22/2021 at 10:00 PM, webfact said:

AstraZeneca has told Brussels that the UK is using a clause in its supply contract that prevents exports of its vaccines until the British market is fully served,

.....and that isn't vaccine nationalism?

1 hour ago, Surelynot said:

.....and that isn't vaccine nationalism?

You can’t blame the UK for negotiating in their best interest. That’s what we all do. It’s stupidity on AZ’s side. 

 

(Whether vaccine nationalism is in their (and other countries’) best interest is a different question of course; I believe at some point all countries need to cooperate and share if they want to open up again.) 

1 minute ago, cocoonclub said:

It’s stupidity on AZ’s side. 

100% agree.....for a huge, well established company, they seem to have dropped the ball big time....very odd!

Meanwhile: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/covid-astrazeneca-vaccine-trial-latest-b1821200.html

14 hours ago, Hi from France said:

With a little pressure, all's well that ends well, we are going to have a win-win and a lot of handshakes. 

That really is good news - let's all hope for success. As the WHO said - 'no-one's safe until we're all safe'.

39 minutes ago, Eindhoven said:

Meanwhile: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/covid-astrazeneca-vaccine-trial-latest-b1821200.html

Naah! It's just the US being childishly jealous of Brexited UK's success! ????

11 minutes ago, candide said:

Naah! It's just the US being childishly jealous of Brexited UK's success!

Good to see my comments clearly got to you.

1 hour ago, Eindhoven said:

Meanwhile: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/covid-astrazeneca-vaccine-trial-latest-b1821200.html

 

 

Summary 

 

Quote

Controversy over new AstraZeneca trial data raises more unwanted vaccine questions

Analysis: Outside the UK, the Oxford-made vaccine is struggling to shake off lingering doubts and questions that are undermining public faith in the jab

Controversy over new AstraZeneca trial data raises more unwanted vaccine questions

Analysis: Outside the UK, the Oxford-made vaccine is struggling to shake off lingering doubts and questions that are undermining public faith in the jab

 

Many here blame the EU or Macron / Merkel for making a mess in communicating the AZ jabs,

 

... but do they acknowledge the work of AZ in reliable testing and delivering is a mess in the first place? 

 

 

Now, the fact the U.S. health safety board raises concern about latest AstraZeneca vaccine data might be a good news, as they will be more likely to give their stockpile if they don't want to take the risk to inject Americans. 

 

The USA already gave some of their stockpile to Mexico and Canada.

 

If they give some to the EU at the conference next Thursday, we should direct them to EU countries that want them (eg Belgium never suspended their jabs they would take them, France would probably take them, Sweden would probably not - jabs still suspended even if AZ is Swedish and British - ) and the surplus can go to other countries, including the UK?

 

 

I think the problem with the UK jabs, is they didn't set aside the second dose,  giving a maximum of first jabs so a lot of the population is waiting for the 2nd dose while AZ has huge production problems. I still think the behaviour of the UK injecting all the population so fast and after incomplete testing was careless, though for now this is a winning bet. As I said, given the opportunity I'd take the risk myself, now I would be more hesitant to inject millions if I had the responsibility. 

 

 

The good news is that Pfizer and Moderna are delivering faster and faster and their vaccine has better protection. But they are more expensive, and storage is complicated. 

J&J is single dose but offers less protection 

AZ still has qualities (low price, easy storage..) 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 20215 yr by Hi from France

"To shift the blame is the name of the EU-game".

It's the EU buerocrats and the - in each job she ever did totally incompetent - van der Leyen, who are responisble for this complete failure.

They negotiated endlessly with AZ professionals like the dumb amateurs they are - while the UK already fixed contracts and started the roll out.

 

The UK does, what it has to do: Take care their own citizens first. Congratulation! I got my shots already due to my job, but i wish, I were british!

 

A word to export controls:

Today they "found" 30 million AZ doses in Italy waiting to be shipped to the UK.

IF (big if!)  it is true that AZ's EU plants are delivering to the UK but not vice versa from there to the EU and though it was the EU who messed the whole thing up, export controls or stops have to be invented.

First handle the crisis, then shoot the responsibles.

 

 

The AstraZeneca vaccine is the only one that is being offered at cost price. Every other pharma company is pricing for a profit. So it’s no great surprise that it is subject to politically and commercially motivated criticism ... less sales of AstraZeneca means more profit for national champions in the US and Europe. 
 

I bet that when all the data for all the vaccines have been analysed to death we will find that Astra’s product was as safe and effective as the rest. 

On 3/23/2021 at 4:21 PM, sandyf said:

The benefits of the UK contract are related to production location, and brexit has muddied the waters on that. If the UK was still in the EU there wouldn't be any leverage.

It doesn't matter how watertight any contract is, if a foreign country wants to stop export there is little that can be done in the short term.

 

The UK failed to export tanks to Iran 45 years ago and still in dispute.

But the UK is no longer in the EU and it is likely that the UK will never join again.

 

As for the tanks not being exported to Iran 45 years ago, it's completely irrelevant to the discussion on the AZ vaccine.

52 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

It's the EU buerocrats and the - in each job she ever did totally incompetent - van der Leyen, who are responisble

could you please include reliable sources, and if you can check a bit your spelling before posting?

52 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

"To shift the blame is the name of the EU-game".

It's the EU buerocrats and the - in each job she ever did totally incompetent - van der Leyen, who are responisble for this complete failure.

They negotiated endlessly with AZ professionals like the dumb amateurs they are - while the UK already fixed contracts and started the roll out.

 

The UK does, what it has to do: Take care their own citizens first. Congratulation! I got my shots already due to my job, but i wish, I were british!

 

A word to export controls:

Today they "found" 30 million AZ doses in Italy waiting to be shipped to the UK.

IF (big if!)  it is true that AZ's EU plants are delivering to the UK but not vice versa from there to the EU and though it was the EU who messed the whole thing up, export controls or stops have to be invented.

First handle the crisis, then shoot the responsibles.

 

 

The Telegraph understands the 29 million doses were instead due to be sent to European and developing countries under the COVAX programme

British sources said they were not expecting any shipment from Italy, while EU officials confirmed that many of the doses were destined for poorer nations.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/03/24/italian-authorities-raid-vaccine-factory-amid-false-fears-astrazeneca/

21 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Me and my son

Just the bear necessities of life

What are you and your son are doing in Central Thailand with a bear? The bear is a necessity of life?

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/03/24/italian-authorities-raid-vaccine-factory-amid-false-fears-astrazeneca/

Telegraph source, so to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Last September the Telegraph announced triumphantly that Barnier was sacked, remember?

14 hours ago, Hi from France said:

the EU is hosting a EU Vaccine summit on Thursday evening, Biden will be invited

 

 

considering The U.S. Is Sitting on Tens of Millions of AZ Vaccine Doses, he could definitely help by giving does to Europe

 

The article does not say whether Johnson is invited too (now its called "EU Vaccine summit" and the UK is out, while the objective is also to ‘rebuild’ the transatlantic alliance).

 

So I suppose this means "EU-USA alliance" but not UK ?

 

 

 

I believe UK delivery will be discussed as well with the European advocating for some delivery for the UK, as the Brits quite fond of the AZ

... and also will need some for their "second jab" campaign

 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/23/joe-biden-attend-eu-virtual-summit-this-week

 

 

 

early May, the EU will also host a Coronavirus Global Reponse Pledging Conference

 

 

 

At the end of the day, the only thing the yanks respect is "troops feet" on the ground when they go to wage war, which is the one thing the EU can't/won't get involved in. They'll not throw that away.

On 3/23/2021 at 4:30 PM, 7by7 said:

 The vaccination drive in the UK is nowhere near 50% complete.

 

It will not be complete until everyone has had both doses. According to the government, as at 22nd March at 4:00 pm, only 2,281,384 people have received their second dose (Source).

Suck it up man.  Brexit has happened...let's move on

23 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Telegraph source, so to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Last September the Telegraph announced triumphantly that Barnier was sacked, remember?

You seem to have a problem with all sources   execpt your own,  if you have an issue suggest you take it up with the forum moderators

Maybe but highly unlikely they will add a new forum rule that all posts with links must be submitted to you for approval or rejection and course if the link is rejected by you , you will provide a 2 paged detailed summary of why you rejected the link

On 3/23/2021 at 4:51 PM, KhaoYai said:

I disagree - I don't see much evidence of a lockdown this time. Maybe non essential retail is closed but people still mix in other stores with little evidence of social distancing. There's also a lot more stores open this time - it seems amazing just what is classed as essential. In the first lockdown just about everything except food stores was closed.

 

I live in a tourist area and we have groups of walkers and cyclists passing every weekend.  A couple of weeks ago I was on the M62 and it was rammed full of traffic, most people I know are going to work - compared to March 2020 it seems pretty normal outside.

 

When the kids went back to school last September, new infections rose immediately. This time they went back to school 2 weeks ago and infections continue to fall. I'm convinced that the falling numbers of cases, hospitalisations and deaths in the UK is due to vaccination.

Wasting your time trying educating the remainer doom & gloom club still hanging on in there waiting.

Sad individuals really. 

46 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

could you please include reliable sources, and if you can check a bit your spelling before posting?

Reliable sources about what? Van der Leyens incompetence?

Btw: If you don't like my spelling, just don't read my postings. Life can be easy. Give it a try.

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

The Telegraph understands the 29 million doses were instead due to be sent to European and developing countries under the COVAX programme

British sources said they were not expecting any shipment from Italy, while EU officials confirmed that many of the doses were destined for poorer nations.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/03/24/italian-authorities-raid-vaccine-factory-amid-false-fears-astrazeneca/

Also mentioned here:

 

News reports Wednesday morning out of Italy screamed that the company had hidden or lost 30 million doses in a warehouse south of Rome—around the same number of doses they failed to deliver to the continent thanks to what they had, at the time, called production glitches.

But the 30 million doses in the Catalent finishing facility that La Stampa newspaper claimed were lost were actually well-documented and inventoried.

 

They all had lot numbers and none were ever intended for Europe, instead most were prepared to be sent to third world countries as part of the Covax agreement.

 

https://news.yahoo.com/fake-news-murder-charges-italy-133021527.html