Ghost Visa Runs Illegal

[cali4995]

In the May 15th edition of the pattayatoday tabloid, there appears on the front page an article

concerning foreigners who sent their passports out of the country to obtain visas at consulates

abroad. As could have been predicted, there were unfortunate results. If you've ever even

considered doing such a thing, it's a worthwhile read. link to online edition below. I say again

it's a tabloid and they don't often quote sources / references but a cautionary tale.

http://www.pattayatoday.net

[visarunner]

The story matches the image of Pattaya.

IMHO , some people got cheated because of false promises/stamps.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

or cheats dealing with cheats.

[sriracha john]

Cited article presented here in order to avoid excessive clicking:

Ghost visa runs illegal

Don’t give away your passport In recent months, an old problem has resurfaced. Some farangs are tempted to give third parties their passports for the round trip journey to Europe to obtain multi-entry non-immigrant visas.

The foolish foreigners do not themselves leave Thailand but trust agents with their personal documents in return for a whacking fee. The stamps themselves are not usually fake and an agent secures the desired multiple entry visa, often in one of the satellite Thai consulates in UK or mainland Europe.

The problem is that it is against the law to secure a new visa unless the farang himself or herself shows the passport for checking and validation at a Thai airport or border post. Using third parties is a no-no.

Several Europeans are known to have been caught out when they tried to leave Thailand in person using their fraudulently acquired multiple entry visas.

They were questioned closely about their recent travel history by Suvarnabhumi airport or border police and arrested and jailed for breaking the provisions of the 1980 immigration act.

They were then bailed on surety of 200,000 baht each and later had to appear in court to be deported.

What has prompted the resurgence of the “ghost” visa runs is the October 2006 immigration rule change which has restricted the number of days which foreigners travelling without visas could remain in Thailand.

The limit is now 90 days in any six months’ block for those who do not hold a prior visa obtained at a Thai consulate or embassy abroad. Foreigners now trying to obtain a further 30 days on arrival by crossing at border points such as Pong Nam Ron or Aranyprathet are being told they must show their future airtickets or travel documents to obtain a further month’s extension.

The ruling does not apply to aliens who have obtained a 60 day tourist or 90 day non-immigrant visa in person outside of Thailand.

Another problem is that Thai consulates in south east Asian countries such as Malaysia, Laos and Singapore are typically giving only single entry 60 day and 90 day visas, rather than the multiple entries which are so highly sought.

As a consequence, some farangs are tempted to turn to third parties who offer the “ghost” visa runs to UK with the added attraction of multiple entries which are much easier to obtain in Europe.

An immigration source said, “If you want to stay longer than 30 days in Thailand, but don’t have a prior visa, you must now show your onward travel documents before being given a second month on arrival.

But longer stay visitors are advised to obtain tourist or non-immigrant visas in their own countries before they arrive here.”

He added that there were also several ways of extending visas for up to one year in Thailand. The so-called retirement visa, the married person’s visa and one year extensions for valid work permit holders were all widely used by foreigners with details easily obtainable from Thai immigration offices.

But he warned that foreigners who fraudulently sent their passports out of the country with couriers and agents for new visas were likely to be exposed and prosecuted. “It’s just not worth the hassle of deportation procedures and time spent in jail,” he clearly stated.

- Pattaya Today

[astral]

This a recurring topic,

and is STILL illegal.

You also risk arrest if you are not in possession of your passport.

[Digitalbanana]

The problem is that it is against the law to secure a new visa unless the farang himself or herself shows the passport for checking and validation at a Thai airport or border post. Using third parties is a no-no.

Does anyone have the actual legal document wording that covers this law?

As far as I know one can courier a passport out of Thailand to obtain visas for other countries that do not have embassies in Thailand and then get them returned - but just not for Thailand itself?

[gummy]

Not sure what the law says but I have sat in many Embassys over the years waiting for a visa. Whilst there couriers or whatever have come in and presented/collected numerous passports for visas, especially tour groups etc etc.. Also some companies I have worked for would take my own passport to send to whatever countries embassy I was visiting and I would get a visa without my own physical presence. All perfectly legal obviously.

So have I missed something here or are the Thai authorities actually suggesting that this practise is not the correct procedure and that in future everybody must appear in person to present their visa application?

Edited May 18, 2007 by gummy

[A_Traveller]

At the simplest level, I take it they would rely on Section 58

Section 58 : Any alien who has no lawful document for entering the Kingdom under Section 12 (1); or

has no Residence Certificate under this Act; and also has no identification in accordance with the Law on

Alien registration, is considered to have entered into the Kingdom in violation to this Act.

In the case of sending a passport out of country for a visa to be provided by a country which has no consular services here, a duly authorised person should provide a formal receipt for both the passport and the reason for the alien not having it within their possession.

Regards

PS Having checked I see Meastro has provided a link to the act {as amended in 2004} in a pinned topic at the head of this section.

/edit add PS//

Edited May 18, 2007 by A_Traveller

[marginline]

Hmmm…so hypothetically if I physically departed LOS for a week’s vacation in say Malaysia, and overnighted my UK passport to a visa agent in London, would the 3x, 6-month validity tourist visa duly stamped into my passport and subsequently returned to me in Malaysia – be legal for me to use to re-enter Thailand?

My understanding is it all boils down to whether or not I physically need to be present at the Royal Thai Embassy in London in order to submit and collect my own visa paperwork as well. Can anyone help with this please?

[jdinasia]

The problem is that it is against the law to secure a new visa unless the farang himself or herself shows the passport for checking and validation at a Thai airport or border post. Using third parties is a no-no.

Does anyone have the actual legal document wording that covers this law?

As far as I know one can courier a passport out of Thailand to obtain visas for other countries that do not have embassies in Thailand and then get them returned - but just not for Thailand itself?

You are required to be in possession of your passport at all times in Thailand ....

highly illegal practice from here .... though I wonder about doing it whilst abroad in say Malaysia ... you MIGHT be breaking Malaysian law by not having your passport ..... and you could be caught out if ALL your stamps were looked at closely ....

<not an issue for me ... every 15 months to Australia ... or the USA is ok>

[cali4995]

The real irony, and this is a true story. I was visiting phuket a few years ago and the immigration officers themselves in patong were shipping passports down to their buddies in padang-basar in a

briefcase to get stamped, all for a nominal fee. What a long way(or not) we've come since then.

Edited May 18, 2007 by cali4995

[marginline]

You are required to be in possession of your passport at all times in Thailand ....

highly illegal practice from here .... though I wonder about doing it whilst abroad in say Malaysia ... you MIGHT be breaking Malaysian law by not having your passport ..... and you could be caught out if ALL your stamps were looked at closely ....

<not an issue for me ... every 15 months to Australia ... or the USA is ok>

So what's the Thai immigration law on this please?

As I've never been stopped and asked for my passport in almost the 3-years I've lived here, I'd be willing to take a chance in Malaysia for say a week with a photocopy of said passport and the 90-day departure card they give you. Respectfully...so what then if "ALL" my stamps were scrutinized? I could prove definitively I had departed LOS, I just couldn't prove that I had physically applied (and collected) my new tourist visa issued from London that's all.

Would that be a problem or considered illegal?

[jdinasia]

You are required to be in possession of your passport at all times in Thailand ....

highly illegal practice from here .... though I wonder about doing it whilst abroad in say Malaysia ... you MIGHT be breaking Malaysian law by not having your passport ..... and you could be caught out if ALL your stamps were looked at closely ....

<not an issue for me ... every 15 months to Australia ... or the USA is ok>

So what's the Thai immigration law on this please?

As I've never been stopped and asked for my passport in almost the 3-years I've lived here, I'd be willing to take a chance in Malaysia for say a week with a photocopy of said passport and the 90-day departure card they give you. Respectfully...so what then if "ALL" my stamps were scrutinized? I could prove definitively I had departed LOS, I just couldn't prove that I had physically applied (and collected) my new tourist visa issued from London that's all.

Would that be a problem or considered illegal?

I imagine it is illegal still .... I actually called Denver 2 years ago and asked about posting my passport to them while I was on vacation somewhere else and they said they could only process a visa for someone IN the USA at the time. They said they insured this by not allowing overseas mail I think it is in the policies of the Consular sections of embassies AND all consulates (honorary or regular) to only issue visas to people IN the given country where the embassy/consulate is located. Thusly getting caught out could be very very bad! (if you did it from Malaysia AND the immigration officer noted you did not leave Malaysia but had a new visa from the US etc ..... eeeeek!)

[A_Traveller]

Hmmm…so hypothetically if I physically departed LOS for a week’s vacation in say Malaysia, and overnighted my UK passport to a visa agent in London, would the 3x, 6-month validity tourist visa duly stamped into my passport and subsequently returned to me in Malaysia – be legal for me to use to re-enter Thailand?

My understanding is it all boils down to whether or not I physically need to be present at the Royal Thai Embassy in London in order to submit and collect my own visa paperwork as well. Can anyone help with this please?

1. You can do this, but, the official position is that a visa should be issued in location, in this hypothetical case Malaysia.

2. Chances are that no one is going to notice that you have no exit stamp and entry stamp within Malaysia during that period but if they did you would be given, assuming you hadn't used your 'allowance' a 30 day visa exempt. They could refuse entry and invalidate the visa.

3. If memory serves you must carry your passport with you in Malaysia but it is not as critical as here. In extreme circumstance, e.g. an accident then lack of ID could be a serious matter [hence the rule]

4. On the not present position, the agents may be required to identify your location, and if done by a friend through the post the same caveat can apply.

5. Note any visa issuing authority can demand personal attendance, the not present function is always a courtesy, not a right.

On balance, with the exceptions of being in one country and requiring the consular services of another which does not have due representation visa applications are best managed territorially

Further many courier services no longer accept passports {at all} or without validating paperwork to establish cause for any such shipment.

Regards

/Edit typo //

Edited May 18, 2007 by A_Traveller

[lazeeboy]

You are required to be in possession of your passport at all times in Thailand ....

highly illegal practice from here .... though I wonder about doing it whilst abroad in say Malaysia ... you MIGHT be breaking Malaysian law by not having your passport ..... and you could be caught out if ALL your stamps were looked at closely ....

<not an issue for me ... every 15 months to Australia ... or the USA is ok>

So what's the Thai immigration law on this please?

As I've never been stopped and asked for my passport in almost the 3-years I've lived here, I'd be willing to take a chance in Malaysia for say a week with a photocopy of said passport and the 90-day departure card they give you. Respectfully...so what then if "ALL" my stamps were scrutinized? I could prove definitively I had departed LOS, I just couldn't prove that I had physically applied (and collected) my new tourist visa issued from London that's all.

Would that be a problem or considered illegal?

I imagine it is illegal still .... I actually called Denver 2 years ago and asked about posting my passport to them while I was on vacation somewhere else and they said they could only process a visa for someone IN the USA at the time. They said they insured this by not allowing overseas mail I think it is in the policies of the Consular sections of embassies AND all consulates (honorary or regular) to only issue visas to people IN the given country where the embassy/consulate is located. Thusly getting caught out could be very very bad! (if you did it from Malaysia AND the immigration officer noted you did not leave Malaysia but had a new visa from the US etc ..... eeeeek!)

4 years or so ago almost everyone i know were sending passports out with a courier ,unbeknown to all someone doing the runs decided to aquire his own stamp, well the s-it really hit the fan ,afew people on tourist visa's were arrested fined and deported but for some reason all non b visa holders were over looked ,it scared the life out of everyone and i dont know anyone not doing visa runs ,at the time it was almost classed as legal,far from it ,just do your runs or upgrade to resident B this way you will be safe and enjoy your time in thailand

[lopburi3]

You are stamped in and out of Malaysia so any visa obtained while you were in Malaysia and not issued there, if noticed by Thai Immigration, will be considered invalid and not honored. So if you were in Thailand, by stamps, when a new overseas visa was issued it would not be valid.

As for sending passport across borders that is fine if you do not require it (extra passport) and you do not misrepresent your actual location; but when there are false border stamps involved (if you did not obtain yourself it is false regardless of who may have stamped it) - it becomes a criminal offense and you risk jail and deportation.

[mcfester]

The embassy wouldnt issue the visa, you'd have an entry stamp for Malaysia but no exit stamp, the only way you could do it is if you travel to a country that doesnt stamp your passport.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

The embassy wouldnt issue the visa, you'd have an entry stamp for Malaysia but no exit stamp, the only way you could do it is if you travel to a country that doesnt stamp your passport.

Or request two passports from your home country for business purposes because you are frequent travelerwhich is not that uncommon from western countries like the US. Each country has different requirements for an extra passport and some countries such as China will not issue 2 at all.

In that scenario the traveler would make sure to keep each passport balanced for entry and exit stamps.

To get the processing you would send the other passport to your office or lawyer and they would send it to the consulate for you.

[Gumballl]

The embassy wouldnt issue the visa, you'd have an entry stamp for Malaysia but no exit stamp, the only way you could do it is if you travel to a country that doesnt stamp your passport.

For instance the US (well, at least in Seattle). When I recently returned from LOS, an entry stamp into the US was not given.

[Rickman]

This is how one could do it legally.

Some countries, The UK is one of them, allow their citizens to hold 2 passports.

1. Depart Thailand, perhaps to Malaysia, using the passport you have the entry permit in for Thailand, and use the same passport to get the entry stamp for Malaysia (or the country of your choice). Retain this passport for use in your country of choice and to exit the country.

2. Whilst in the country of choice send the other passport to a friend in a country where you can legally obtain a non immigrant multi or 1 year visa. Make sure the friend uses his or her address in that particular country to apply for and recieve the visa. Have the friend post it back to you in your country of choice.

3. Depart your country of choice using the passport you kept all along and enter Thailand with the passport you just got back from your friend with a new non immigrant visa.

4. A short cut would be to post the 2nd passport to a friend before leaving Thailand and have your hotel or a friend in your country of choice inform you when it arrives. You just need to hop across the border, pick it up and re-enter Thailand.

This of course is hypothetical, never done it myself as I have no need. I would be interested to know if anyone else has though.

[jdinasia]

The embassy wouldnt issue the visa, you'd have an entry stamp for Malaysia but no exit stamp, the only way you could do it is if you travel to a country that doesnt stamp your passport.

For instance the US (well, at least in Seattle). When I recently returned from LOS, an entry stamp into the US was not given.

There would still be the matter of the missing exit stamp from Malaysia and the missing time it takes to do the whole visa thing in the USA

[bruceboy]

These people know it is illegal and still do it. They give all of us "farang" who are trying to decents residents or guests a bad name. Also I feel obtaining visas illegaly disrespects the King of Thailand.

[mikethevigoman]

The story matches the image of Pattaya.

IMHO , some people got cheated because of false promises/stamps.

A guy i know has just obtained a retirement visa ( he thinks ) for 25.000 baht,. he just signed a load of forms, opened a bank account and the next day without filling in any forms received his passport back with A visa in it.. ive looked at it and the expiry is feb 08, and dosent mention retirement on it, he also has a bank book and card showing 800.000 baht went in and came out on the same day !, can anyone help ?, he is worried !, and yes ive already told him what a fool hes been,, Edited May 21, 2007 by mikethevigoman

[mikethevigoman]

Hmmm…so hypothetically if I physically departed LOS for a week's vacation in say Malaysia, and overnighted my UK passport to a visa agent in London, would the 3x, 6-month validity tourist visa duly stamped into my passport and subsequently returned to me in Malaysia – be legal for me to use to re-enter Thailand?

My understanding is it all boils down to whether or not I physically need to be present at the Royal Thai Embassy in London in order to submit and collect my own visa paperwork as well. Can anyone help with this please?

You defianatly dont need to be present for the visa process, by post is fine, certainly to the Royal Thai Consulate office in cardiff, very helpful, and quick,..

[loveandlaughter]

About a year ago there was someone on the boards who did just that.

Sent the passport away to get a better visa.

The guy got caught out as he only went so far as Cambodia and was recrossing overland.

I think hypothetically that as long as you returned by air and had been away a fortnight say it might work out. For EU or returning yankees you don't have entry exit stamps for your home country anyway.

What might then let you down is the flight number on the immigration card, though I suppose you could be returning by way of Malaysia, but the exit stamp would be for that day coming back to Thailand......so on close scrutiny not good enough.

To be real safe there would have to be a second pair of exit/entry stamps for Malaysia.....which brings you into shady territory and risks trouble in both Malaysia and Thailand.

If you were so concerned why not just disappear and simply do without a visa?

If you were not staying in hotels there is no reporting in so as long as you didn't want to leave Thailand..........

Well thant's anarchy!!!!!

[suanprig]

Amazing the bullshit people go thru trying to snake the Thai Immigration office. Why not just do things legit and forget about it. Cost a bit more but who cares. Much Much Much easier.

[LivinLOS]

The real irony, and this is a true story. I was visiting phuket a few years ago and the immigration officers themselves in patong were shipping passports down to their buddies in padang-basar in a

briefcase to get stamped, all for a nominal fee. What a long way(or not) we've come since then.

They are still at it..

Right now its not ghost visa runs.. Its 20k baht for a one year non imm O multi from the smiling BMW driving immigration officer..

[LivinLOS]

This is how one could do it legally.

Some countries, The UK is one of them, allow their citizens to hold 2 passports.

1. Depart Thailand, perhaps to Malaysia, using the passport you have the entry permit in for Thailand, and use the same passport to get the entry stamp for Malaysia (or the country of your choice). Retain this passport for use in your country of choice and to exit the country.

2. Whilst in the country of choice send the other passport to a friend in a country where you can legally obtain a non immigrant multi or 1 year visa. Make sure the friend uses his or her address in that particular country to apply for and recieve the visa. Have the friend post it back to you in your country of choice.

3. Depart your country of choice using the passport you kept all along and enter Thailand with the passport you just got back from your friend with a new non immigrant visa.

4. A short cut would be to post the 2nd passport to a friend before leaving Thailand and have your hotel or a friend in your country of choice inform you when it arrives. You just need to hop across the border, pick it up and re-enter Thailand.

This of course is hypothetical, never done it myself as I have no need. I would be interested to know if anyone else has though.

This is, according to the British embassy, and the Thai consul, perfectly legal.. I have this in writing.

I have done this myself 2 years running and will be doing it again later in the year while I take a month in India.. The Thai consul have even offered to courier the passport to me in India if I leave the credit card amount blank on the form (so they can adjust based on courier costs) or arrange my own courier collection.

[uk_falang]

With your example you would NOT have broken any Thai laws. Because you were not in Thailand without your passport. You may have broken a malaysian law having been in malaysia without your passport. They probably wouldnt notice.

As long as you are outside Thailand you can apply for a Thai visa from any Thai consulate wherever you like. At least 2 of the web sites for Thai conslates in the UK makes no mention of having to be in the UK when your apply for a visa.

For example you a british business man in malaysia who is being sponsored by a british company to do some business in Thailand. In this case you need to send your passport to the british company (in the UK), where they will attached supporting docmentaion (usually just a letter!) and forward the application to the thai consulate in the uk. The thai conslate in the UK issues the visa sends it back to your supporting company in the UK and they fedex it back to you in Malaysia.

I have friends in the oil industry and they frequently have to send passports back to the UK to get visas for other countries, because never really know where they will be at certain times and cant get back to the UK to make the visas

This is not illegal in Thailands laws. At worst they could not allow you to enter the country using that visa.

If they do let you in (very likely) dont go back to malaysia on the same passport, jst incase someone in malaysia notices you were in malaysia without a passport

Worked for me

Hmmm…so hypothetically if I physically departed LOS for a week’s vacation in say Malaysia, and overnighted my UK passport to a visa agent in London, would the 3x, 6-month validity tourist visa duly stamped into my passport and subsequently returned to me in Malaysia – be legal for me to use to re-enter Thailand?

My understanding is it all boils down to whether or not I physically need to be present at the Royal Thai Embassy in London in order to submit and collect my own visa paperwork as well. Can anyone help with this please?

[astral]

Hmmm…so hypothetically if I physically departed LOS for a week’s vacation in say Malaysia, and overnighted my UK passport to a visa agent in London, would the 3x, 6-month validity tourist visa duly stamped into my passport and subsequently returned to me in Malaysia – be legal for me to use to re-enter Thailand?

My understanding is it all boils down to whether or not I physically need to be present at the Royal Thai Embassy in London in order to submit and collect my own visa paperwork as well. Can anyone help with this please?

I am not sure how the Malaysians will feel about you not having your passport,

but as far as the Thai's are concerned you were outside Thailand when you applied

so it may be acceptable.

As has been noted in the forum there are several embassies/consulates that will accept postal application.

I am not sure about the Embassy in London, but the consulates in Birmingham, Hull and Liverpool

definitely do.

As others have said it is not uncommon to have to mail a passport overseas to obtain a visa

where the country you are applying to does not have a presence where you are staying.

This is why the UK for one will allow multiple passports.

One for your current visa, a second at an embassy for visa application.

A few years back I had to send my passport to the Saudi Embassy in Singapore as I could

not get a Saudi visa in Thailand.

I am not sure at what point this becomes illegal.