Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[david143]

29 minutes ago, THAIJAMES said:

Are recent applications in Bangkok being stalled because Police Intelligence is not processing requests from Police Special Branch in Bangkok?

 

Recently I made my citizenship application at Chiang Mai Police Special Branch.   The police officer in charge was extremely helpful and very competent in making sure all the paper work is in order.  I passed the initial test but he warned me that all previous applications for the last year or so have been held back because Police Intelligence refuses to process requests (possibly because of covid).   He mentioned that there is no such problem from other agencies for example ONCB, Interpol, Work department, immigration, etc.

 

I am trying to figure out if the bottle neck is here in Chiang Mai or is it at Police Intelligence in Bangkok, where all applications must eventually be sent?

but my friends already got interviewed 17/11/2020
Police Intelligence staff visit them at home and cleared them same day.
NIA even sent them email before coming to prepare these documents.
so far now my few friends are waiting for NIA interview .
 

[THAIJAMES]

25 minutes ago, david143 said:

but my friends already got interviewed 17/11/2020
Police Intelligence staff visit them at home and cleared them same day.
NIA even sent them email before coming to prepare these documents.
so far now my few friends are waiting for NIA interview .
 

Thank you, the bottle neck must be in Chiang Mai, which should be easier to deal with.

[david143]

6 minutes ago, THAIJAMES said:

Thank you, the bottle neck must be in Chiang Mai, which should be easier to deal with.

it could possible.
so far from MOI they have resume interviews, the latest meeting was on 12 May 2021.
but for RG , its true they backlog candidates by themself, August 2020 and April 2021 who have done with Oath ceremonies are  pending for RG.
the latest was 17 Nov 2020, since now it is 6 months + , there is no new RG for Special Male.

 

[THAIJAMES]

4 minutes ago, david143 said:

it could possible.
so far from MOI they have resume interviews, the latest meeting was on 12 May 2021.
but for RG , its true they backlog candidates by themself, August 2020 and April 2021 who have done with Oath ceremonies are  pending for RG.
the latest was 17 Nov 2020, since now it is 6 months + , there is no new RG for Special Male.

 

In my case I was told that cases can't be sent to MOI unless all the inquiries from the different agencies have been fulfilled, with police Intelligence being what has stopped cases being submitted to MOI.    Just have to be patient for now.

[david143]

2 minutes ago, THAIJAMES said:

In my case I was told that cases can't be sent to MOI unless all the inquiries from the different agencies have been fulfilled, with police Intelligence being what has stopped cases being submitted to MOI.    Just have to be patient for now.

Good luck Brother.
We hope RG will surprise us too.
 

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, THAIJAMES said:

In my case I was told that cases can't be sent to MOI unless all the inquiries from the different agencies have been fulfilled, with police Intelligence being what has stopped cases being submitted to MOI.    Just have to be patient for now.

 

I am not sure which department police intelligence is.  Sounds like a bit of a contradiction in terms.  But definitely SB can't forward files to the MoI unless clearances have come back from all the departments that need to submit them, such as the narcotics people. Some of the case officers do a good job of hassling these departments until they return the forms.  One of them once said that, if they didn't push to get the forms back, some applications would end right there and then.  Maybe things have improved since then but I can imagine these forms can often stay at the bottom of in-trays for some time, unless someone chases for them.

[THAIJAMES]

4 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

I am not sure which department police intelligence is.  Sounds like a bit of a contradiction in terms.  But definitely SB can't forward files to the MoI unless clearances have come back from all the departments that need to submit them, such as the narcotics people. Some of the case officers do a good job of hassling these departments until they return the forms.  One of them once said that, if they didn't push to get the forms back, some applications would end right there and then.  Maybe things have improved since then but I can imagine these forms can often stay at the bottom of in-trays for some time, unless someone chases for them.

ตำรวจข่าวกรอง

Basically the officers that come around your house and ask a bunch of questions.

Looks like I'll have to do some chasing up.  Maybe show up with a nice gift to get them to come around do their job?

 

[Neeranam]

5 hours ago, Arkady said:

I am not sure which department police intelligence is. 

They are under the Prime Minister's office. 

[Arkady]

35 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

They are under the Prime Minister's office. 

 

It used to be the NIA that were sent to applicants' home. They are under the PM's Office, as are all police.  At one time police were under the MoI which made the interior minister too powerful for many people's liking and the MoI lost out in a power struggle.  But it is still very powerful, controlling all the provincial governors and district offices among other things.

[Neeranam]

20 hours ago, onthemoon said:

Call to the Ministry of the Interior at 02-791-7332. This is the department in charge of naturalisation. Tell them that this government office does not believe that you are a Thai citizen, and give them the name and direct telephone number of that supervisor. They will mot likely give them a friendly phone call.

Thanks for that number, I'll save it. 

 

When I went to a bank recently, the teller didn't believe me, which was not helped by a female customer who nastily said "farang can't become Thai" and she knew as she worked at the MoI. Then another teller agreed with that customer. I stood my ground and eventually my teller accepted my story and ID card. 

Having a contact at the MoI would have helped. It might be a good idea to keep a photocopy of the Naturalization certificate in my car. 

[Arkady]

14 hours ago, THAIJAMES said:

ตำรวจข่าวกรอง

Basically the officers that come around your house and ask a bunch of questions.

Looks like I'll have to do some chasing up.  Maybe show up with a nice gift to get them to come around do their job?

 

 

สำนักข่าวกรองแห่งชาติ (สขช.) = NIA.  They are not police.

[Arkady]

34 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Thanks for that number, I'll save it. 

 

When I went to a bank recently, the teller didn't believe me, which was not helped by a female customer who nastily said "farang can't become Thai" and she knew as she worked at the MoI. Then another teller agreed with that customer. I stood my ground and eventually my teller accepted my story and ID card. 

Having a contact at the MoI would have helped. It might be a good idea to keep a photocopy of the Naturalization certificate in my car. 

 

It's amazing how these morons pop up at inopportune moments saying up that farangs cannot become Thai.  Everyone needs to be prepared to encounter the ไทยไม่พอ syndrome at once they have got their ID card. Sometimes it is amusing like the nurse who kept on asking for my passport and work permit after I explained I was Thai and showed her my ID card. Other times it's downright annoying like when the BTS clerk tried to refuse me a pink discount card for oldies or the head of registrations at the provincial land office in Amnart Charoen who tried to refuse to register land in my name.  In that case I had a copy of my naturalisation certificate but she said she needed to have the original.  I stood my ground and argued with her and she eventually caved.   I have sometimes carried a copy of the letter signed by HMK with me as supporting evidence but have never needed to use it and am unsure whether it would really be a good idea.

[Kwarium]

37 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

It's amazing how these morons pop up at inopportune moments saying up that farangs cannot become Thai.  Everyone needs to be prepared to encounter the ไทยไม่พอ syndrome at once they have got their ID card. Sometimes it is amusing like the nurse who kept on asking for my passport and work permit after I explained I was Thai and showed her my ID card. Other times it's downright annoying like when the BTS clerk tried to refuse me a pink discount card for oldies or the head of registrations at the provincial land office in Amnart Charoen who tried to refuse to register land in my name.  In that case I had a copy of my naturalisation certificate but she said she needed to have the original.  I stood my ground and argued with her and she eventually caved.   I have sometimes carried a copy of the letter signed by HMK with me as supporting evidence but have never needed to use it and am unsure whether it would really be a good idea.

Thai mai paw! Good one! Bringing out the Thai ID is always good for some laughs and lots of smiles all around, so I roll with it, usually. Still fun after almost 3 years.

 

Less funny if actual roadblocks are thrown up, though. I still don’t have my annual flu shot... ????

 

 

[onthemoon]

On 5/22/2021 at 11:16 AM, Neeranam said:

Thanks for that number, I'll save it. 

 

When I went to a bank recently, the teller didn't believe me, which was not helped by a female customer who nastily said "farang can't become Thai" and she knew as she worked at the MoI. Then another teller agreed with that customer. I stood my ground and eventually my teller accepted my story and ID card. 

Having a contact at the MoI would have helped. It might be a good idea to keep a photocopy of the Naturalization certificate in my car. 

 

Another option is to ask them to talk to the Amphoer/Khet that issued the ID card. They should tell the officer that that they believe he issued this card without authorisation... Helped me with with pink ID card when I had to renew my driver's licences. The supervisor came back from her office after the phone call and apologised; she thanked me that she learned somethng new today.

[Arkady]

19 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

 

Another option is to ask them to talk to the Amphoer/Khet that issued the ID card. They should tell the officer that that they believe he issued this card without authorisation... Helped me with with pink ID card when I had to renew my driver's licences. The supervisor came back from her office after the phone call and apologised; she thanked me that she learned somethng new today.

 

That is a good idea too.  I had a nasty experience at the Phyathai district office in Bkk when I went to get married which should be a happy affair.  I was a PR then and insisted that PRs didn't need that affirmation of right to marry from an embassy.  The head of registrations was called and he said all foreigners needed the paper.  Then he looked at my alien book and declared it to be a fake on the grounds that alien books and IDs with the prefix 8 could only be issued to Chinese foreigners not white guys.  The conversation turned nasty when he accused me of carrying forged government documents (as if anyone could actually find the antique paper and glue to forge an alien book and ensure it fell to bits on time).  So we gave up and drove down the road to the Sathorn district office where they were all smiles. 

 

It never ceases to amaze me that Thailand can have government officers in positions of responsibility who are as stupid and ignorant as that and yet they survive and get promoted. Although it is understandable that many Thais don't know much about PR, a head of registrations in an inner city Bangkok district office is one person that you would think would know all about it.

[Neeranam]

34 minutes ago, Arkady said:

hen he looked at my alien book and declared it to be a fake on the grounds that alien books and IDs with the prefix 8 could only be issued to Chinese foreigners not white guys. 

It seems to be the ethnic Chinese that have the biggest problem with farang Thais. The old Chinese woman in my bank was very nasty after accusing me of having a fake ID. I asked her if Chinese people can get Thai nationality. She said Chinese are different to farang and CAN get citizenship. It will take a long time to be accepted here by the majority. I was painting the wall outside my house the other week and a neighbour said "foreigners shouldn't be doing that"! I thought they meant that as a foreigner, I should be able to pay someone to do it but later found out they meant my visa didn't allow it! 

[khongaeng]

6 hours ago, Neeranam said:

they meant my visa didn't allow it! 

I have been tempted in my dreams to be a taxi driver in Bangkok just to see the shock on everyone's face to see a foreigner driving a taxi around.  

I find that very surprising that a Thai would say something like that.  What nosy and rude neighbors you must have!

I'm glad that I haven't had any horror stories yet in passing as a Thai.  I've whipped my ID card out at least 20 times now, usually without anyone asking to see it first, but knowing it will simplify the discussion, and there has been no discussion after a very quick glance.  

I think that it will never be possible to just be taken for my word that I am Thai.  I've just accepted the fact that I will need to flash my ID card whenever I do anything where there is a deliberate differentiation between Thais and foreigners. In any case its a nice reminder every time I pull that blue card out of my wallet of the years of waiting, the numerous and humorous hoops I had to jump through, and the final sense of accomplishment when I beat all the odds against me and entered a club with on a few thousand other people living in Thailand.  

[Arkady]

6 hours ago, Neeranam said:

It seems to be the ethnic Chinese that have the biggest problem with farang Thais. The old Chinese woman in my bank was very nasty after accusing me of having a fake ID. I asked her if Chinese people can get Thai nationality. She said Chinese are different to farang and CAN get citizenship. It will take a long time to be accepted here by the majority. I was painting the wall outside my house the other week and a neighbour said "foreigners shouldn't be doing that"! I thought they meant that as a foreigner, I should be able to pay someone to do it but later found out they meant my visa didn't allow it! 

 

A similar phenomenon can be observed in farang countries too when earlier waves of immigrants resent the more recent arrivals and try to keep them out.  My next door neighbour didn't like a farang moving in next to him and kept picking childish fights about the trees between our houses which I personally couldn't care less about and didn't even notice when he cut my trees. He eventually passed a message from his maid to my maid that I should go back to my country, if I couldn't abide by Thai culture. I passed a message back that by same route that, in that case, he should go back to China.  Having said that, the neighbours on all the sides are also all Thai Chinese and they couldn't be nicer.

 

The notion that ethnic Chinese have special rights over obtaining PR or citizenship is curious.  In fact, historically speaking, the opposite is true.  The quota for PR by nationality was expressly designed in the 1950s to keep out Chinese immigrants and restrict their access to citizenship, since PR was the only gateway to citizenship for those born overseas.  The Chinese are the only nationality that has been consistently inconvenienced by the quota and that remains true to this day, particularly considering Taiwan and Hong Kong also come under the Chinese quota. 

 

Very funny about your neighbours ticking you off for painting your wall without a WP,

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, khongaeng said:

I find that very surprising that a Thai would say something like that.  What nosy and rude neighbors you must have!

The reason I had the wall built ! 

 

[onthemoon]

18 hours ago, Arkady said:

It never ceases to amaze me that Thailand can have government officers in positions of responsibility who are as stupid and ignorant as that and yet they survive and get promoted. Although it is understandable that many Thais don't know much about PR, a head of registrations in an inner city Bangkok district office is one person that you would think would know all about it.

 

Don't blame the officers - they are doing their best at trying what is best for the country. I blame their superiors for not training them, all the way up to the government for not having a system in place. If any services are only for Thai people, the officers concerned should be trained and know that there are naturalised Thais, and that there is no difference between the ethnicities or any previous citizenships.

 

Due to lack of proper training, these officers depend on "what they heard", i.e. rumours. Or even worse, on "what they feel is right".  That's why I always recommend they talk to the proper authorities, be it to the Amphoer/Khet, or directly to the Ministry.

 

You are actually helping the country if you suggest this to them. The concerned officers will receive new knowledge.

[onthemoon]

17 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I was painting the wall outside my house the other week and a neighbour said "foreigners shouldn't be doing that"! I thought they meant that as a foreigner, I should be able to pay someone to do it but later found out they meant my visa didn't allow it! 

 

You could have just smiled and encouraged him to call the cops (i.e. immigration) on you. ????

[david143]

Keep laminate RG with you , this is the thing no body in Thailand can denies

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, onthemoon said:

You could have just smiled and encouraged him to call the cops (i.e. immigration) on you. ????

I did just smile and am thinking of making business cards to pass through their letter box, asking if they want me to paint their wall. 

[Big Guns]

In my labour law case back in 2019 (that I won) the judge insisted that I couldn't be Thai. He even wrote in the case documentation that it was a dispute between 2 foreigners. At least he sided with the the Thai foreigner ????

[GarryP]

2 minutes ago, Big Guns said:

In my labour law case back in 2019 (that I won) the judge insisted that I couldn't be Thai. He even wrote in the case documentation that it was a dispute between 2 foreigners. At least he sided with the the Thai foreigner ????

That is insane. You would think that the guy with a gavel who is ruling on disputes would fact check everything (even if some of those "things" ultimately have no bearing on the final judgement). 

[charliechoc]

On 5/23/2021 at 1:25 PM, Arkady said:

It never ceases to amaze me that Thailand can have government officers in positions of responsibility who are as stupid and ignorant as that and yet they survive and get promoted.

My Thai wife said more or less the same thing when she had to re-new her medical license after changing her name due to our marriage. She had to visit the appropriate govt building... walked up to reception. The receptionist said go down the hall and last door on the left. So my wife knocked and walked in the door. This old boiler government officer screamed at my wife and said 'get out of my office now'. My wife walked back to reception and the receptionist said 'sorry about her'. Having a laugh about it driving home my wife said that some of these stupid idiots get promoted simply bc they have spent so long in the job. No other reason. 

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, charliechoc said:

My Thai wife said more or less the same thing when she had to re-new her medical license after changing her name due to our marriage. She had to visit the appropriate govt building... walked up to reception. The receptionist said go down the hall and last door on the left. So my wife knocked and walked in the door. This old boiler government officer screamed at my wife and said 'get out of my office now'. My wife walked back to reception and the receptionist said 'sorry about her'. Having a laugh about it driving home my wife said that some of these stupid idiots get promoted simply bc they have spent so long in the job. No other reason. 

 

I guess they get promoted the same way they get the jobs in the first place - the patronage system.

[david143]

today i talked with MOI staff and she is very nice and helpful,

She informed that They already received the Data from SB , she asked me about which month i got interviewed and which month Oath, i informed her my interview was in December 2019  and Oath 26 August 2020.
Then she asked my Full name and Wife name, Plus Surname, then put me on hold for 2 mint and then came back and said.

We already received data from SB and we are preparing File for RG, and she smile and said Ror naa kaa.

I said thank you for your help she not mentioned anything When it will publish.
Anyone wants to know please call this number they are happy to tell.

 

02-7917332

[Arkady]

15 minutes ago, david143 said:

today i talked with MOI staff and she is very nice and helpful,

She informed that They already received the Data from SB , she asked me about which month i got interviewed and which month Oath, i informed her my interview was in December 2019  and Oath 26 August 2020.
Then she asked my Full name and Wife name, Plus Surname, then put me on hold for 2 mint and then came back and said.

We already received data from SB and we are preparing File for RG, and she smile and said Ror naa kaa.

I said thank you for your help she not mentioned anything When it will publish.
Anyone wants to know please call this number they are happy to tell.

 

02-7917332

 

I think they don't know when the announcements are going in the RG until just before it happens because they get batched up and have to wait for the minister's signature to approve publication.

[david143]

Just now, Arkady said:

 

I think they don't know when the announcements are going in the RG until just before it happens because they get batched up and have to wait for the minister's signature to approve publication.

My SB officer already informed me Minister already signed.
But why its delay he also don't know.